And Millard COULDN'T have taped the 69 West Coast Stones. He's from a diff.generation of tapers (imo same as Freezer) who didn't start until 72-73, maybe 74 (that's why his very 1st Zep tape is Long Beach 1975 03 11, not any of the L.A. 73 extravaganzas).
Second he was against boot LPs, when all the TMOQ tapes were pressed on vinyl days after being taped. IIRC when his Zep 1977 06 21 exc. tape was pressed on vinyl he blew a fuse.

intresting read this ,,,,,,thanks ,,you know so much ,,bout recordings,,,

For the THIRD time on this thread Millard DID NOT tape Liver-that was done by Ken and Dub (of the original TMOQ) that did the west coast and Phoenix 69 tapes.

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Gazza
When I started trading tapes around 1984, most people I traded with werent really interested in getting a tape copy of a bootleg LP - they wanted it from original tape source, and in as low a generation as possible.

So how can you tell without seeing the transfer, what generation copy you are getting? I find it to be a difficult task to just declare a tape 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation just by a mere listen.

Tapes back then were crude to begin with, and many imperfections just in the taping process alone. Most source tapers probably used hand held taping machines rather than being set up with elaborate decks that needed space and was not something you tucked into your pants.

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scottkeef
According to SF mag vol 1 1999 the there were 6 west coast shows taped in 69. 2 in LA,2 in Oak,San Diego and Phoenix by Dub and Ken OF TMOQ. Using a Sennheiser 805 shotgun mic and a Uher 4000 reel to reel-71/2ips 5" reels. Mic was pointed at the drums and let the pa fill out around it. Dub said the mic was anodized black as not to reflect light and not be seen in the dark. (DU "at the time there was no problem getting into concerts to tape cause it had never been a problem before-so you can thank us for the problems you have going into concerts with a tape recorder now....!"

Heres how the LIVER show was taped. As far as the gen thing(on cassette tape when I started trading) I guess you just had to trust. I suppose you could tell if a tape was alot of gen off the master because of the hiss but other than that I guess it was an honor system.

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The Sicilian

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Gazza
When I started trading tapes around 1984, most people I traded with werent really interested in getting a tape copy of a bootleg LP - they wanted it from original tape source, and in as low a generation as possible.

So how can you tell without seeing the transfer, what generation copy you are getting? I find it to be a difficult task to just declare a tape 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation just by a mere listen.

Tapes back then were crude to begin with, and many imperfections just in the taping process alone. Most source tapers probably used hand held taping machines rather than being set up with elaborate decks that needed space and was not something you tucked into your pants.

People (not me, I couldnt have given a shit) wanted to know the lineage, so as a lot of them got the tapes from the master or very close to it, it was relatively easy to trace, based on the info they were given

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dcba
"I used to know a girl, Andrea"
Was it the girl known as "Vicky Vinyl"?

Yep.... she never told me that personally - we didn't talk "bootleg backround" much (I felt she was uncomfortable with the subject so I kept my mouth shut) - but I found out later reading up on their operation. Great little shop they had, never saw so many boots in one place, in one room, amazing.... You know her dcba?

The first LA show in '75 is the most amazing show I have ever heard the Stones play.

"The wonder of Jimi Hendrix was that he could stand up at all he was so pumped full of drugs." Patsy, Patsy Stone

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Gazza

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The Sicilian

Seems like an oxymoron but isn't the object of recording shows illegally, actually bootlegging when you pass it on to someone else? .

No....bootlegging is done for profit. Tape-trading isn't.

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The Sicilian
Back then how else would someone on the east coast get a copy of a tape from the west coast if it was not mass produced? Someone had to do the legwork for all to enjoy.

Same way as most of us built up a collection in the pre-CDR era. By trading tapes sent through the mail. Most hardcore fans had a collection which didnt primarily consist of mass-produced vinyl. The majority of shows that circulated did so exclusively on tape. What was available on vinyl was only a fraction of what was available. Likewise, its probably true that most recent shows in circulation have circulated in torrent or CDR form through free trades or file sharing. Its only later that they tend to be mass produced - only then do they become 'bootlegs'.

When I started trading tapes around 1984, most people I traded with werent really interested in getting a tape copy of a bootleg LP - they wanted it from original tape source, and in as low a generation as possible.

I think I have about 95% plus of the available Stones shows in my collection. The amount I've actually bought on factory-produced LPs or CD's would barely reach double figures. They're the only ones that I'd classify as bootlegs. The remainder I've traded or torrented.

I got my first few via mail from a place in Hawaii (I lived in LA).
When they arrived it was just as exciting as Christmas morning.
After a while, I used to get them at the Capitol Records swap meet in LA
which they had the first (I think) Saturday of every month in the parking lot.
It was just a swap meet of of albums, photos, posters, and bootlegs scattered
around very secretly. That was a terrific place. Those were the days.

[qualityboots.blogspot.com]

/2008/05/rolling-stones-lost-millard-masters.html

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Erik_Snow
I wonder if stuff like these complete July 10th/13th tapes and the complete Essen/Hamburg 1973 tapes are still being hold on to by a couple of people, or if the bootlegers just threw them away after releasing their product back then? Impossible question to answer....

I am under the impression that Hamburg 73 is around?!?

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Rank Stranger

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Erik_Snow
I wonder if stuff like these complete July 10th/13th tapes and the complete Essen/Hamburg 1973 tapes are still being hold on to by a couple of people, or if the bootlegers just threw them away after releasing their product back then? Impossible question to answer....

I am under the impression that Hamburg 73 is around?!?

Erik is referring to the excellent audience recordings from Essen and Hamburg '73 that can be found on several compilations from the '73 European tour including "The Stars In The Sky They Never Lie", and "The Jean Clarke Memorial Sonic Barbeque". Both Essen 11/11 and Hamburg 10/2/73 circulate as more or less complete shows, but the sound quality is far inferior to the handful of songs from these shows found the various '73 European tour compilations. I can't remember which songs come from which show but I know there's "Gimme Shelter", "Happy", "Star Star", "Heartbreaker", "Angie", "Dancing With Mr. D.", "Tumbling Dice", and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" all in excellent sound quality. Lots of people mistake them for soundboards.

Thanks, now I get it! These were on a boot that came out shortly after these shows, "The Stars In the Sky They Never Lie" on Caution records.

GS, Starf.,Doo, from Hamburg, the rest is from Essen Oct 10th.

Thanks for clearing up, Tumblin_Dice

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HelterSkelter

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dcba
"I used to know a girl, Andrea"
Was it the girl known as "Vicky Vinyl"?

Yep.... she never told me that personally - we didn't talk "bootleg backround" much (I felt she was uncomfortable with the subject so I kept my mouth shut) - but I found out later reading up on their operation. Great little shop they had, never saw so many boots in one place, in one room, amazing.... You know her dcba?

I was a friend of Matt and Andrea's but have lost touch. Last time I saw them was at the B2B show in Vegas. I contacted someone who knows them, via email, about this thread too give them a heads up about what's being said. I could add to what's being posted but won't to respect their privacy. I was at a record show in Buena Park Sunday and mentioned it to mutual freinds and we all had a laugh. Hopefully they are not upset.

Matt and Andrea, if you read this, please get in touch to say hi. I'd like to know if yer going to Jeff Beck next month.

Blondie Scotty,
Irvine

Hi All-

Sorry if this question was already addressed, but I'm confused on the source of the much circulated LA Forum '75 shows....

There's a zillion titles (LA Friday, Who went to Chruch This Sunday, I never talked to Chuck Berry, etc.) that are all of the same show (I think).

Is this recording Millard's work, or not?

Like I said - if this has been covered a billion times already, just ignore me.

SSF

<<Bootleg! The Rise & Fall of the Secret Recording Industry>>

Is this book just an updated/revised version of Heylin's 'Bootleg: The Secret History of the Other Recording Industry'?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 16:41 by Sohoe.

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SyracuseStonesFan
Hi All-

Sorry if this question was already addressed, but I'm confused on the source of the much circulated LA Forum '75 shows....

There's a zillion titles (LA Friday, Who went to Chruch This Sunday, I never talked to Chuck Berry, etc.) that are all of the same show (I think).

Is this recording Millard's work, or not?

Like I said - if this has been covered a billion times already, just ignore me.

SSF

Its Millard.

Bumping this thread since there might be an explanation of the patchy nature of MM's 1975-07-10 tape. On the p2p site Dime someone is posting genuine 1st gen copies of Millard's Zep tapes.

here's the story that came with the 1977-06-23 Zep rcording which is patchy too :

"UNcirculated set of unmarked tapes for this show transferred with Dolby B on as per Mike's notes on the tape labels using an adjustable outboard Dolby B unit. This is the 1st time (May 2010) these tapes have ever been digitized. The sound is completely unaltered except for pitch correction during playback. There are many dropouts in the recording due to Millard having problems with his tape deck. He also missed the first four songs due to having the pause button pressed in while recording. As it turns out there is has been an unmarked copy of this recording circulating for many years now on the Badgeholders (Balboa) label that no one has noticed except for the astute observations of Blackmikito. To paraphrase his analysis he did the a/b comparison of Balboa with other versions and discovered outside of the common dropouts in both channels from recorder problems Balboa is the only one without single channel manipulation issues. This low gen confirms his conclusion. Also of note is the tone you hear during the first dropout's during Since I've Been Loving You is actually a test tone. Here is some more of Blackmikito's research and conclusions on this.

"One significant piece of info that I can pass on to you that most people don't know is that Millard was likely having issues with the Nak on this night. This is why there are so many cuts and drops on the recording. Originally I had always thought that the drops and beeping noise in SIBLY were marks. But, a few years ago I did a little research and found out that the Nakamichi 550 has a 400hz "test tone" switch on the back of the deck: [www.angelfire.com]

Pushing that switch will cut-off your recording and insert the test tone. This is used so that you can match what you recorded on the Nak against the test tone on another deck. (Hence the phrase "Tones on Tail" - a studio note to let other engineers know that the test tone is on the tail of the reel of tape). It is this test tone switch on the Nak 550 which I believe caused all of the drops on the 6/23/77 recording. Go to this site: [www.testsounds.com] and listen to the sample for the 400hz test-tone. Now compare that one to the test tone that you can hear during "Since I've Been Loving You". The two tones match.

This error correlates with something that I had learned from a friend of Mike's who I went back and forth with a few years ago via email. When I brought up the errors on 6/23/77 to him, he said that he didn't attend that show with Mike, but that he believed that that show must've been one of the ones that Mike had told him about, where he ruined a recording by standing his deck up in the bag that he had it hidden in, and inadvertently activated the test-tone button. This happened to him a few times, so Mike later came up with a homemade plastic cover which he attached to the back of the deck so that it wouldn't happen anymore."

Mon 17th May, 2010 13:55 GMT posted by weedwacker67

Could be an explanation, right?

Does anyone of you have raw Millard tapes for all LA 1975 shows?

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dcba
And Millard COULDN'T have taped the 69 West Coast Stones. He's from a diff.generation of tapers (imo same as Freezer) who didn't start until 72-73, maybe 74 (that's why his very 1st Zep tape is Long Beach 1975 03 11, not any of the L.A. 73 extravaganzas).
Second he was against boot LPs, when all the TMOQ tapes were pressed on vinyl days after being taped. IIRC when his Zep 1977 06 21 exc. tape was pressed on vinyl he blew a fuse.

Freezer started in 72 right?

Until this year, the Lost and Found series presented fresh transfers of previously unavailable first-generation copies made by Mike himself for friends like Stan Gutoski of JEMS, Jim R and Barry G. These sources were upgrades to circulating copies, and in most instances marked the only time verified first generation Millard sources had been directly digitized in the torrent era.

That all changed with the discovery of many of Mike Millard’s original master tapes.

Yes, you read that correctly, Mike Millard’s master cassettes, long rumored to be destroyed or lost, have been found. Not all of them, but many, and with them a much more complete picture has emerged of what Millard recorded between his first show in late 1973 and his last in early 1992.

The reason the rediscovery of his master tapes is such a revelation is that we’ve been told for decades they were long gone. Internet myths suggest Millard destroyed his master tapes before taking his own life, an imprudent detail likely concocted based on assumptions that because his master tapes never surfaced and Mike’s mental state was troubled, he would do something rash WITH HIS LIFE’S WORK. There’s also a version of the story where Mike’s family dumps the tapes after he dies.

The truth is, Mike’s masters remained in his bedroom for many years after his death in 1994. We know at least a few of Millard’s friends and acquaintances contacted his mother inquiring about the tapes after his death to no avail. But in the early 2000s, longtime Millard friend Rob S was the one she knew and trusted enough to preserve Mike’s work.

Here is Rob’s account of how Millard’s master tapes were saved:

After Mike left us, I visited his mom Lia occasionally, usually around the holidays. She’d talk about the grandkids and show me pictures. She had no one to help out around the house so I did some minor improvements like fixing a kitchen shelf that collapsed and another time a gate that hadn’t worked for years.

After a few visits, I explained to Lia how the tapes were metal, up to 25 years old already and would eventually deteriorate. She agreed to let me take the tapes and make copies. We went into Mike’s bedroom and it was exactly like I remembered it when I was there years before. I loaded up every tape I could find and went to work copying them. Oldest first, some requiring “surgery.”

Months later when I was done copying, I compared what I had copied to a list Mike had compiled of his masters and realized there were many shows missing. I returned the tapes and asked Lia if we could see if there were any more somewhere else in the house. We went into a back bedroom and found a bunch of boxes filled with more original master tapes. I loaded them up, thanked Lia and left. This was the last time I would see her. I copied the rest of the tapes and stored the masters in a cool dry place until late last year when Jim R. reached out. We had known each other through Mike. After speaking with Jim, and later BK who had tracked him down, I knew their partnership was the “right way” to get this music out to everyone who wanted it, and I’m sure Mike would have agreed.

[www.dimeadozen.org]