Quote
His Majesty

Quote
LA FORUM
But isnt that for open G, the live open-tuning?

IF they are in open Tuning at the NME Poll Winners concert, it would be open E.

It would be completely weird and impractical to play JJF using open G tuning with no capo.

sorry, i was generally speaking, I misunderstood.

The key is the placing of his thumb. You'll never place your thumb like Keith does in the picture with the open tuning.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The key is the placing of his thumb. You'll never place your thumb like Keith does in the picture with the open tuning.

That depends on so many things.

The thumb is a key point though, during the r&r circus JJF he never seems to play a standard bar chord shape for B at 7th and A at 5th, instead he hooks the thumb over the top to play the low E string, whilst fretting with his other fingers from below.

Not that my opinion makes any difference in the total scheme of things but I definately believe Brian is playing JJF in standard tuning in RnR circus. And it can be played in the same tuning at the 7th frt. I'm sure all of us that fool around on the guitar knows you get a different sound of the riff(kinda like how the studio version is a little different from the live sound). I've always referred to this as the "Johnny Winter" sound.On the Ed sullivan LRR when Brian plays the very high riff at the end being in open G doesnt come out sounding right to me(but what do I know!).Changing guitars also is not always particular just to different tunings. Such as the action on the Vox may be set too low for slide or being that the Epiphone hollowbody is more suited to the clean,clear tones needed for the song instead of the trebly british rnr sound of the Vox. Remember the technology to get any sound you wanted from any guitar through the amp was not available 40 yrs ago. But opinions are like you know what and for what its worth thats mine.

The footage and audio shows us what is being played, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

LRR is definitely played using open G because when Brian slides up to the 12 fret and when he hits the high e string it puts out a d note, he also slides up to the 17th fret for the high G etc etc.

To play what is heard, but tuned to standard would require some weird playing by Brian, but the footage shows us he's just playing it as per open G/the record.

teardrop for TLT - standard

casino for LRR - open G

back to teardrop for ENSTL - standard

...

For JJF, if you play it in open G or in standard ala the bar band/johnny winter way along with the video and single versions you'll find that it clashes due to the C sharp that is sometimes present during the main riff on the video and single version. The r&r circus version avoids the open G/JW sound due to the fact the riff is played up at the 2nd fret.

It's as if the Open G/JW sound emphasis's towards a D chord, where as the single/video/r&r circus emphasis's an A chord during the main riff.

Jesus, I'm waffling on, sorry!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-20 21:42 by His Majesty.

But on RnR Cirkus JJF is played differently. They never played it similar again later. It's seems like they're riffing in B with the A string as the lead string. And they end the riff on the dark E, and that's rather unusual if you ask me...

Well I didnt mean Winter was playing the song in a particular chord just referring to the overall sound and of course it clashes with the video/rnr circus sound which was played very "studio" version. That was my point. the LRR slide is very easy to duplicate in standard tuning but since you obviously take your posting name seriously I will not try to contradict the King.

Quote
scottkeef
Well I didnt mean Winter was playing the song in a particular chord just referring to the overall sound and of course it clashes with the video/rnr circus sound which was played very "studio" version. That was my point. the LRR slide is very easy to duplicate in standard tuning but since you obviously take your posting name seriously I will not try to contradict the King.

Not too seriously...

The footage shows him playing tuned to open G, I don't see why we should question what is seen and heard!?

Quote
with sssoul
wow, a dozen?! any hope you could post some of them, please please and thank you kindly?
this is the only other one i've got (besides backstage photos and the one HM posted up there):

Here's a few more...











There's another shot similar to the one's you posted, but Keith is right back beside the amps, and also one of Mick throwing his Shoe in to the audience.

I had them both, but can't find them.

beautiful - thanks HM!
how sweet that they all seem purposely shot to make Keith's left hand hard to see :E

i can't even tell what you gentlemen are disagreeing about anymore - can we have a recap?

1] Brian was or wasn't in open G for Little Red Rooster
2] Keith was or wasn't in open E for JJF at the 68 NME show

but

3] everybody agrees the Rock & Roll Circus JJF was in standard tuning, right? and
4] everybody agrees that post-Circus renditions of JJF have been in open G?

1] Brian was or wasn't in open G for Little Red Rooster

Without a doubt -truly without a doubt - Brian is in open G for LLR.



2] Keith was or wasn't in open E for JJF at the 68 NME show

I say he was in standard tuning, but as always that Majesty dude makes me has second thoughts.

3] everybody agrees the Rock & Roll Circus JJF was in standard tuning, right?

Without a shadow of a doubt.

4] everybody agrees that post-Circus renditions of JJF have been in open G?

Since 1969 all versions of JJF has been in the key of B or Bflat in open G.

Mathijs
ps Brown Sugar at Altamont and at the Marque are both in open G. Keith retuned his Armstrong to open G, and that's one of the reasons he's so out of tune on both versions.

cool, thanks Mathijs! i'm glad i'm following it all right.

thanks for that Marquee Brown Sugar elucidation too. i was surprised when someone (a guitarist, even!)
posited that Keith might have used standard tuning for it; i think he was just misled
by the editing that makes it look like it was played between the two takes of Bitch,
when in fact it was probably the last number of the set.

then why does he slide up to the 15th fret at the very end of the song if the bottom string is tuned differently? Also you need to watch the right hand and note which strings he hitting. He's not just strumming! But,on a lighter note(pardon the pun)thanks for the cool pics.

>> then why does he slide up to the 15th fret at the very end of the song
if the bottom string is tuned differently? <<

have mercy baby: which rendition of which number are you talking about, please?

sorry, sssoul. I guess I was typing the same time you were, I was still referring to the Little Red Rooster performance!

Brian goes to the 15th fret when he's playing the descending 'hounds begin to howl' thing and goes to the 17th to hit the high G sometimes with a nice E thrown in via the 2nd string.

You cannot play in standard and match what Brian is seen and heard to be playing!

For example, the slide up to the c chord/5th fret, he's playing his slide straight, and the G note is heard clearly on the high E string. In order to do that in standard, erm, you would have to pull some weird angles with the slide. \

1- 5 < that's a G note
2- 5
3- 5
4- 5
5-
6-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-21 00:13 by His Majesty.

By George, I believe I've got it!!!!!!!! But with no audio for the NME available I guess I can still hold out for being right about something! HEH_HEH!!!

Quote
Mathijs

2] Keith was or wasn't in open E for JJF at the 68 NME show

I say he was in standard tuning, but as always that Majesty dude makes me has second thoughts.

It's just a thought really, some of the fingering in the photos suggests open E to me, but then again, something like this image looks close to the position I pointed out...



... But that's taken during SFTD from the r&r circus which obviously used standard tuning.

If they only played JJF at the NME gig, I'd be more convinced of the possibility of open E, but Satisfaction, hmm, not sure how they'd play that using open E!?

>> not sure how they'd play that using open E <<

quite - so unless Keith had a second guitar and all the photos so far are from JJF ...
but barring that possibility is everyone in agreement now?
Brian in open G on Rooster, Keith most likely in standard (*possibly* open E) on JJF at the NME gig,
in standard at the Circus and in open G ever since? good - another round of popcorn for everybody :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-21 01:34 by with sssoul.

Quote
with sssoul
>> not sure how they'd play that using open E <<

quite - so unless Keith had a second guitar and all the photos so far are from JJF ...
but barring that possibility is everyone in agreement now?
Brian in open G on Rooster, Keith most likely in standard (*possibly* open E) on JJF at the NME gig,
in standard at the Circus and in open G ever since? good - another round of popcorn for everybody :E

But, they...

Nevermind!

About Rock n roll circus: Parachute woman is in standard and on studio in open D/open E. Same as JJF.

Quote
LA FORUM
About Rock n roll circus: Parachute woman is in standard and on studio in open D/open E. Same as JJF.

Some of the acoustics could be tuned to open E/D, but the electric lead guitar is standard.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
Mathijs

2] Keith was or wasn't in open E for JJF at the 68 NME show

I say he was in standard tuning, but as always that Majesty dude makes me has second thoughts.

It's just a thought really, some of the fingering in the photos suggests open E to me, but then again, something like this image looks close to the position I pointed out...



... But that's taken during SFTD from the r&r circus which obviously used standard tuning.

If they only played JJF at the NME gig, I'd be more convinced of the possibility of open E, but Satisfaction, hmm, not sure how they'd play that using open E!?

aha! This pic shows exactly what I mean. Keith always had this weird way of placing his pinky as low as possible under the high E string, so it looks like he's grabbing some weird chords, but he's actually not.

By the way, I find it quite hard to grab the chords pointed out by you without any rattling. I can do it, but then in a Wild Horses (thus minor open G) tuning.

Mathijs

Quote
Mathijs
By the way, I find it quite hard to grab the chords pointed out by you without any rattling. I can do it, but then in a Wild Horses (thus minor open G) tuning.

Mathijs

Minor? Remember I'm only fretting like so:

1- 5
2- x
3- x
4- 5
5- 5
6- 5


Keith is shown to use the fingering in One Plus One. It's definitely a shape he used when using open E/D.

In order to play JJF, Stray Cat Blues, Jigsaw Puzzle(acoustic guitar part) like the studio versions you need to use that kind of fingering.

During One plus One when he's playing acoustic, he uses a variation of it. Instead of fretting the first string with his pinky, he lets the 1st and 2nd string ring out, but later on when he's playing his les paul custom tuned to open E, he uses the shape I posted as well as barring with the first finger and adding sus 4's, lead lines with his pinky etc.

...

I still think the photos from the NME gig suggest open E tuning though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-21 22:22 by His Majesty.