Thanks His Majesty for the article. Wonderful stuff. Always a treasure to read things like that.

Hmm... I can see the full-blooded Brian Jones fans (bless them) going mad while reading it. "Driving force behind the band" is Jagger, "backed by" Jones. The 'revisionism' of history had seemingly started already then....><

Funny, the only guy to whom is not attributed any profession is the one who had a regular job at the time....

- Doxa

Definitely not May 5th (we held back the article). Also I took longer than usual to write it, partly because it was the first time we'd published a feature on an act that DIDN'T have a record out (that was why we were called New RECORD Mirror). And the photographer was Bill Williams, not Dezo. Bill drove us there, unforgettable because he'd spilt milk in his car, and Ian Stewart drove us back to North London in the van - really late, because we'd (me and my girlfriend) gone somewhere with the Stones after the gig.

>> Is that the Harmony guitar that Keith is playing? <<

none other! the Harmony Meteor he bought in late 62 or very early 63, for something like 75 pounds
on the hire-purchase plan of course. deep consideration must have gone into that investment -
i love that guitar because of that :E

and now that the author's here - say hallelujah! - we'd better get Mr Jopling's article up -
from the New Record Mirror "for the week ending [Saturday] May 11th 1963":





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-17 19:21 by with sssoul.

>> Definitely not May 5th (we held back the article). <<

ahh, that's what i suspected - thank you thank you! any finetuning of when you did write it,
and when you brought the photographer along, will be very gratefully received indeed!

in case it's of any value for comparative purposes, by all accounts Peter Jones first went to see them
at the Crawdaddy on April 21st, the day Giorgio Gomelsky was making the film of them that your article mentions.
the way ALO recalls it (although he wasn't an eyewitness), it was you and your enthusiasm for the band
and your persistent persuasiveness that got Peter Jones interested in them,
and coaxed him to run that article despite their recordlessness.
Giorgio apparently also phoned Peter Jones, to invite him to the filming -
is that how you remember it too? and was it you who suggested that Giorgio should invite him?

in other words, i'm fascinated! go on go on :E

>> And the photographer was Bill Williams, not Dezo. <<

my apologies to Bill Williams! i found the same shot in a book of Dezo Hoffmann's photos,
so i thought Bill Williams was one of his pseudonyms. thanks for the correction.

>> Bill drove us there, unforgettable because he'd spilt milk in his car,
and Ian Stewart drove us back to North London in the van - really late,
because we'd (me and my girlfriend) gone somewhere with the Stones after the gig. <<

i am totally & very gratefully charmed and fascinated! go on, and on and on, please!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-17 23:30 by with sssoul.

sorry but i really get excited about this kind of finetuning of the historical record -
isn't it interesting that when Mr Jopling wrote his article the Stones had already pinpointed
Come On as a front runner for their first single. since (it now sounds like) the article was written
in late April - ie before ALO was in the picture - that neatly deflates some of the popular mythology
about when/how they chose that number to record. fascinating!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-17 20:00 by with sssoul.

This is great stuff! Thanks for bringing up the topic, with sssoul!!!!

Yeah, thanks a lot! One of the most fascinating threads on this forum !

Oo er, some nice little revelations!

Wonderful and thank you kindly, Mr. Jopling! We very much look forward to reading more of your contributions.

This is really a great thread. Thanks to everybody who contributed.

<<that neatly deflates some of the popular mythology
about when/how they chose that number to record.>>

Yeah!

Thanks, with sssoul! I saw a old early sixties Silvertone(Sears) made by Harmony sell on ebay last week for around $500! It cosmetically looked the same but who knows if the pickups and tuning keys and such were maybe lower line. Still its amazing what old guitars that used to be considered "on the cheap" are worth now. Maybe cause they were American made at the time?

>> old guitars that used to be considered "on the cheap" <<

scottkeef, i love discussions about Keith's early guitars, but could we move this to another thread,
please and thank you kindly? maybe this one: [www.iorr.org]
there's some cool information there about Keith's Meteor, along with a link to a Harmony collectors' site



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-18 07:57 by with sssoul.

meanwhile, back to Mr Jopling's hugely intriguing recollections ...

>> Ian Stewart drove us back to North London in the van - really late,
because we'd (me and my girlfriend) gone somewhere with the Stones after the gig. <<

in case it's any help in pinpointing exactly when this was (and/or in eliciting any more cool anecdotes!)
here are some of the major april 63 events at the Crawdaddy that various close-up sources seem to agree on:
it was on april 14th that the Beatles stopped in at the Crawdaddy, and apparently
they went back to Edith Grove with the Stones after the gig - were you there for that? that's about as hip as it gets!
on april 21st, as we've already noted, Giorgio Gomelsky made his 20-minute film of the Stones in action -
that was in the afternoon (the Stones cancelled their usual Ken Colyer matinee show to do it),
and there was a regular gig in the evening. never seen anything about what they did after the show, though!
on april 28th ALO brought Eric Easton to the club, and approached the band for the first time -
apparently ALO took them somewhere for supper after the show, to talk management with them.

Mr Jopling, it would be hugely cool to hear your recollections (and/or corrections!) of any/all of those events -
and as many others as you're willing to tell us about, of course!

Ooops, I was just so excited of barely reading the article that I didn't notice that the writer himself is also here!!!

Wow, mr. Jopling, there are so many questions - very good ones - already risen by with [space] sssoul, but I would be interested, as my comment above shows, how did you find the group dynamics at the time? Was Brian a sort of leader, spokeman, etc. or was is (already) really Jagger as the article says? What about Keith - totally in shadows? What was your impression of the guys? I would be most grateful if you find time to enlighten these matters a bit.

I think what is really fascinating in the article is that it describes the band prior Andrew 'manipulated' it. Even Keith Richards is still with 's'... As one can see, the essentials were already there!

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-18 10:36 by Doxa.

>> Was Brian a sort of leader, spokeman, etc. or was is (already) really Jagger as the article says? <<

actually Norman Jopling's article (as opposed to Barry May's on page 1 of the thread)
states that Brian was the spokesman/leader. maybe what May wrote made them extra-careful
to emphasize that when talking with Mr Jopling?

notice too that in Mr Jopling's piece the name "Crawdaddy Club" had apparently not yet taken hold -
Giorgio Gomelsky has said that that name first arose when Barry May and/or his photographer
asked (for the Richmond & Twickenham Times article) what the club was called -
it seems like that must have been on april 7th.

so i gather that Mr Jopling wrote and revised his piece over the course of a few weeks,
adding updates like the details about the filming as they happened.

it's also interesting that by the time the article appeared in the New Record Mirror,
the Stones were signed to Impact Sounds (although Impact had not yet done the deal with Decca),
after having fibbed/bought their way out of the IBC Studios contract that wasn't looking too fruitful.

man but the Historical Events were coming thick & fast in those weeks!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-18 10:37 by with sssoul.

>> having fibbed/bought their way out of the IBC Studios contract that wasn't looking too fruitful <<

... i'm sorry for piling up so many questions - i can't help it, i'm just too intrigued!
Mr Jopling, were you aware at the time your article was about to come out of the IBC Studio situation -
that in order to sign a recording contract with Impact Sounds Brian had to first go around to IBC
with a story that the band was breaking up and that he therefore wanted to buy out the contract they had with them?
they believed him, and he gave them something like 90 quid (Eric Easton's money, i presume!)
to pay for the sessions they'd done at IBC in march. that must have happened in the first nine days of may,
and it seems like a rather tricky moment for the band to be talking with a music journalist
(and for an article to come out!) about their recording plans, their search for a record company
and about how hot their future was looking! i mean: if your article had come out a week earlier,
it seems like it could've complicated the whole IBC buy-out thing considerably.
so i've always wondered about the logistics of that and would love to hear your insights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-18 13:21 by with sssoul.

... and one more question, Mr Jopling, if you can stand it!

>> I'm currently penning my Record Mirror memoirs <<

for publication, we hope?! we'd love to hear about it (including where we can pre-order copies!)

Quote
with sssoul
>> withsssoul <<

Doxa dear, as long as you're editing: you promised you'd remember with sssoul is two words.
(i'll discreetly delete that after i know you've seen it - thanks!)

>> Was Brian a sort of leader, spokeman, etc. or was is (already) really Jagger as the article says? <<

actually Norman Jopling's article (as opposed to Barry May's on page 1 of the thread)
states that Brian was the spokesman/leader. maybe what May wrote made them extra-careful
to emphasize that when talking with Mr Jopling?

notice too that in Mr Jopling's piece the name "Crawdaddy Club" had apparently not yet taken hold -
Giorgio Gomelsky has said that that name first arose when Barry May and/or his photographer
asked (for the Richmond & Twickenham Times article) what the club was called -
it seems like that must have been on april 7th.

so i gather that Mr Jopling wrote and revised his piece over the course of a few weeks,
adding updates like the details about the filming as they happened.

it's also interesting that by the time the article appeared in the New Record Mirror,
the Stones were signed to Impact Sounds (although Impact had not yet done the deal with Decca),
after having fibbed/bought their way out of the IBC Studios contract that wasn't looking too fruitful.

man but the Historical Events were coming thick & fast in those weeks!

Okay, I still seem to have confused May's and Jopling's articles, and yes, there it is explicitly said that Brian is the "leader and spokesman of the group". Still, I would be most interest to hear mr. Jopling's impressions of the dynamics within the band. Was Brian's status actually such clear as it sounds there? Taking many other wittness reports by some other people, including several other group members, it never seemed so clear (no matter what Brian perhaps thought or hoped, and Bill decades later wanted to stress maybe too much).

My misspelling of the name "with sssoul" is corrected.

- Doxa

>> Still, I would be most interested to hear Mr Jopling's impressions of the dynamics within the band. <<

so would i - thanks for raising the question, Doxa

I am ever so excited after reading this thread. Thanks Mr. Joplin for sharing your memories. I hope you have time to catch a little breath after all the questions being fired at you so rapidly, but please, do forgive us, it is not a daily experience to have an eyewitness from the first days around on this board.

I risked a heart failure this morning reading this thread. Norman is here: unbeliavable!

Ok, lets' go back to the fonts.

Peter Jones went first time to see the Stones invited by Giorgio on April 21st , occasion of the shooting of the film.

After 21st, the Stones played at the Crawdaddy on April 28 and May 5. These are supposed to be evening gigs because the band was playing at the Ken Colyer in the afternoon.

Everything should have happened within these two weeks and three gigs:
1) Peter Jones
2) Norman Jopling w. Bill Williams
3) Andrew Oldham alone
4) Andrew Oldham w. Eric Easton

How to give the above the right chronological order?

We know also that the agreemnt with Impact Sound was signed May 1st; therefore Oldham with Easton went at the Crawdaddy probably on April 28.

Is it possible that the people indicated at points 1,2 and 3 were altogether at the Crawdaddy the night of April 21st?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-18 13:42 by straycat58.

>> We know also that the agreemnt with Impact Sound was signed May 1st <<

well, the preliminary management agreement was signed on the 1st -
the Stones/Impact recording contract wasn't signed until the following week, due to the IBC situation
(and the Decca/Impact tape-lease deal wasn't signed until may 21st - all these contracts! it's confusing)

and yeah it would be lovely to finally have firsthand confirmation about whether Norman Jopling
was already working on his article before Peter Jones went to see them on the 21st.
that's the way ALO tells it (and it makes sense to me) but so many sources have mixed it up in the meantime
that the historical record has gotten really muddled. it will be so great to hear it straight from Mr Jopling!

ps: and straycat58, it's not actually true that ALL this had to have happened between april 21st and may 5th -
Norman Jopling could have been working on his article for weeks already before Peter Jones and/or ALO saw them.
i trust he'll let us know how it was



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-05 13:36 by with sssoul.

.. also because I presume there were no more than 50-60 people at the Crawdaddy that 1963 April 21st night: if 6 were on stage and Gomelski was the bearded one, what about the others?

This is a great thread- thanks sssoul!!
I'm not sure whether this should be another thread, but I recall a publication available around 1962/64 called (I think) Hit Parade. It was tabloid size and a sort of low key UK version of Billboard (US music industry journal). The content was essentially PR articles- but all pretty informative and "mature" i.e not "The Kinks slam The Beatles" type of stuff (I've made that one up, but you'll get the idea).
I know they did an article on The Beatles around the time Love Me Do came out (late 1962) and John commenting that they would be returning for another winter season in Hamburg. Not aware of how things would cahnge a few months later.
I'm sure the Stones would have been covered sometime in 1963 - any copies out there??

According to my files, no Hit Parade Articles in 1963 but, of course, I'm not 100% sure.

Here a list of Magazine/Newspapers with Stones Artcicles in 1963:

Jazz News (with Brian Jones letter on feb 1)
Melody Maker
The Richmond and Twickenham Times
Record Mirror
News of the World
Daily Mirror
New Musical Express
Pop Weekly
Disc
Northern Beat Scene
Boyfriend
Southern Standard
Beat Monthly

>> I presume there were no more than 50-60 people at the Crawdaddy that 1963 April 21st night:
if 6 were on stage and Gomelski was the bearded one, what about the others? <<

smile: the others were the blessed witnesses of course!

(Mr Jopling's article mentions 400 people being in the Crawdaddy Club some night right around that time,
so i think chances are good that there were more than 50-60 on the evening of the 21st)

(i am shutting up to leave some room for Mr Jopling, i truly am! trying to, anyway)

Sorry for delay, wow, if I'd known at the time this stuff would be so appreciated 40 years later I'd have kept my notes. Bottom line first - I can't say for sure which Sunday I went to the Crawdaddy, only that it was definitely NOT the Sunday before the article appeared for reasons (I think) stated earlier. Also, when I went, neither the Beatles nor ALO was there...and I knew Paul M. and Andrew personally at the time, so I'm certain of that. And it was after Barry did his piece for the local paper.
Peter Jones knew GG from way back when GG promoted jazz. GG had been pestering Peter for weeks about the Rollin' Stones, and Peter had in turn been pestering me because I was the R&B "expert"; it was my bag. But I refused to believe any UK group could play R&B...not just because they were white and Brits, but because I'd been hanging around checking them all out for a long time and none of them really cut it (to my youthful and probably over-critical ears: but you know how it is when you're a young purist). Anyway, PJ told me he went to see them and they were good ("How would you know?" I said, "You don't even like R&B"!). Eventually PJ wore me down and I went, and you know the rest. Here's what happened when we got there, me, my girlfriend and Bill, in an excerpt from my (hopefully) forthcoming book:

When we arrived, late, there was a crowd of kids outside the Station Hotel who couldn’t get in – the place was packed full. In time-honoured journalistic style we elbowed our way to the front, flashed various press cards, cameras, demanded to see Giorgio. The noise was already fantastic – Giorgio appeared and just pushed us into the room where the Rollin’ Stones were already playing.
It was one of those Bo Diddley songs with a Bo Diddley beat. I’d never heard anything like it in a live act. I’d never felt anything like it. The place shook, everyone in the audience was wet with sweat, the sound was bouncing off the walls, throbbing, utterly irresistible. It lifted me up and swept me along, song after song.
The personnel in the group were not entirely unfamiliar. I recognised a couple of them from playing on and off with Korner, and the singer I’d seen several times down in Jimmy’s basement café in Soho’s Frith Street. He was known to everyone there simply as “the rhythm & blues singer”. I thought it was a joke till I saw him perform. But the sound they made together was nothing like Korner’s worthy troupe. This was alchemy. It was perfect – rhythm & blues in Chicago couldn’t have been any more exciting than this. I was almost in a state of shock – after the initial rush, my brain switched back on and my first thought was like, we could do it. White people could do it.
Well, that’s how it seemed at the time. Maybe white people never got to do it any better than the Stones did in those early days, which is why the music changed and became rock music, that mulatto child of rhythm & blues that white people actually could do. After the gig, as the crowd melted away, Jill and I just stood there, looking at each other, silent. We knew what we’d heard. Bill had taken some pictures and told us he was going, did we want a lift? We couldn’t bear getting back in his stinky car and anyway Giorgio was glad-handing me, what did I think, what did I want to do, come along with me and the boys we’re going to see so-and-so.
Bill split and Jill and I hung around chatting to Giorgio, being introduced to the Rollin’ Stones one by one as they ambled off-stage. Brian, the most intense character, was the chattiest, doing a PR job on me. What can you do for us? he asked. What could I say? Anything they wanted, really.
Their pianist, Ian Stewart, offered to drive us, so we jumped in the group’s van, and together with a couple of cars made our way to the house of “a producer”. I was still in a haze, a blur, the impressions had overwhelmed me, I was disoriented. There was no indication what kind of producer he was; middle-aged, American, had a big dark pad, there were musical instruments everywhere. I did get the feeling he was a film producer though. All the Stones started picking up the instruments and playing around on them. Drinks were poured, everyone relaxed, unwound, I started chatting to the guys. I was surprised to see Mick, the singer, adept on several of the instruments. He had the hardest job in the band, fronting that incredible sound and holding his own. He was polite, distant, not just from me but from everyone that evening. I spoke mostly with Charlie and Keith, who, like me, was a big Mary Wells fan – we shared our disappointment with “Laughing Boy” but hoped that “Your Old Stand-By” would be return to form (it was). Those were the kinds of conversations everyone had in those days. I arranged to see Brian, who seemed to be the group’s leader and spokesman, up at Record Mirror the following week. Eventually Jill and I left. Ian drove us all the way home to Winchmore Hill, a fair trek from the house of “the producer” which was near Richmond. But it was the small hours of the morning, traffic was light.

Hope that conveys just a little flavour of how fantastic that evening was. I'll try to answer any more questions, and if anyone can work out the time-line please let me know.

ohhh thank you for all that, Mr Jopling! and for coming back to us - i didn't mean to overdo the questions,
i was just so excited to see you!

>> if anyone can work out the time-line please let me know <<

i would love to! it's a bit tricky, though - it seems like the "standard sources" must have got something wrong somewhere.
the "standard story" has it that Peter Jones saw the Stones for the first time on april 21st,
which is the date Giorgio made his film of them. and april 28th is really the latest possible date
for when ALO took Eric Easton to the Crawdaddy, approached the band about managing them, etc.
so it's difficult to fit your historic visit to the Crawdaddy in between those two sundays.
i wonder if it could be that Peter Jones had also seen them on some earlier date -
Bill Wyman and Mr Jones both seem sure he was there on the 21st, but maybe it wasn't the first time?
or maybe the sources are wrong about the date the film was made??

the date Barry May's article was published is objective enough - april 13th -
so if your visit was for sure after his piece had come out, there's not a lot of april left to work with.
but ... [scratching head] ... i will have to puzzle over this some more!

meanwhile thanks and praises for your impressions of the evening and of the fledgling Stones!
and for the splendid news that you have a book in the works.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-04 11:18 by with sssoul.

Thanks Mr. Jopling, wonderful stuff!

- Doxa

thanks for sharing your memories - great stuff