a lot of people agree that bill has been important to the Stones sound and groove, that got somehow lost since bill left.but is it all due to the lack of bill. What about Charlie?
Charlie seems to be everybodys darling on that forum. when listening to newer releases from the Stones to me it sounds a lot stiffer than before. I think the times where the drummer followed the rhythm guitarist are long over, it´s the other way around now. the band plays to a metronom like computerised drum loop. Also the drum sound has changed. i liked the sound on sticky fingers and most 70´s records, even some 80´s. the drum sound on vl,b2b,abb is almost unlistenable to me.(whith some exceptions, e.g. dust brothers productions). every new casting band has a better drum sound. Why is that???

what do you think?


1.) Charlie`s playing and sound is just as good as it has always been
2.) It´s new Recording Technic, Copy and Paste for a perfect but unnatural take
3.) Don Was sucks and just doesn´t know how to record drums
4.) Charlie lost interest recording with the Stones and puts little effort in it
5.) Charlie lost some of his groove
6.) Something else

1

1

....regarding #5, above, the other night I found what I think might have been some of Charlie's lost groove. Well, I'm not sure it was Charlie's but it was lost. Come to think of it it wasn't even a groove......oh well, nevermind.

I don't know about your multiple choices, but I think it's true that charlie plays pretty mechanically at this point, and that people don't seem to mind, possibly because they're taking keith's lead of praising him to high heaven any chance he gets. there are no appealing drum parts on ABB. I wouldn't have minded hearing mick's original crack at them.

7.) Times change, and so do musicians styles/interests as well as recording techniques.


J

P.S. Don Was has about as much autonomy over the production/sound of Stones' albums as their caterer does with menu choices: it comes down to what the Stones want.

This question makes me want to vomit. Charlie is the only untouchable in the Stones. Reliable through and through

i agree with your point 7.) and should have mentioned it as possibility in my multiple choice list in the first place.

"P.S. Don Was has about as much autonomy over the production/sound of Stones' albums as their caterer does with menu choices: it comes down to what the Stones want."

if that´s true then maybe they should start listening to him

1.

Most of my beefs with their production come down to a few issues:

A. Stop recording and mixing Jagger's vocals so damn loud and clear.

B. Record Charlie's drums they way they used to prior to Steve Lillywhite's involvement.

C. If you refuse to accept my suggesrtion of having Tom Waits produce your next album, stick with Rick Rubin, Danny Saber, or the 'patchwork producers' style of "Bridges To Babylon." (You may not like the songs, but that's the best and most relevant SOUNDING album they've put out in ages).

J

1, its not even an issue after that

Thought provoking post!

Charlie's playing has/can not change the Jagger-Richards songwriting. He works with what they give him. Musicians work off each other and if Charlie isn't inspired by what he's working with (songwise)--that ain't his fault. He can only add so much of his magic.

Charlie ain't the problem--not by a long shot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-18 02:53 by Justin.

Its the way of recording and also , all of the new songs aint that good anymore

I haven't liked the way the drums have sounded since Some Girls, to be brutally honest. Not every song on Some Girls or every song since Some Girls, but that's when I noticed the decline in quality. For the lack of a better description, they sound all trebly to me, no bass or bottom to them. Whatever happened to the Sticky Fingers sound? You can take the drum parts from any number of songs and interchange them and no one would know. The drum parts on Flip the Switch, for example, could be from Hang Fire. I hated and actually still hate the drums from Neighbors. You Got Me Rocking, on the other hand, has a drum sound I like. But those moments are few and far between anymore.

Just speaking of album recording not live......

ABB drum sound I quite like. The problem with ABB is it's Mick J and Charlie driving the rythmn on most songs. Mick's straight forward rythmn playing is good but not very Stone's like. He plays like any good guitarist plays. Keith adds the Stones feel on top of Mick's playing. Charlie and Keith can get so locked together when Keith is drving the rythmn, it's something you feel more then hear.
ABB does not have this feel. (Mick writes most of the songs so I guess he can play most of the guitar for them too which I hate)

Live is different and better, when Keith is on his game everyone follows Keith.

Charlie is still great but simply is not as good as he once was.

What about Charlie's HOT RIVET shots on It Won't Take Long....

Ahh yeah No1.



ROCKMAN

This thread is really an example of off-tour boredom, too much time on your hands. You folks criticizing Charlie are really reaching for it.

One specific comment - ALL of the sound, drums included, on Some Girls, is very crisp and sharp as recorded/in the final mix. In that sense, kind of like a crisp Steely Dan recording.

Can't wait til they get back on tour and then we can be talking happily (well, not always) about Charlie and the rest (AND The Plexiglass)!!


P

timbernardis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is really an example of off-tour
> boredom, too much time on your hands. You folks
> criticizing Charlie are really reaching for it.
>
> One specific comment - ALL of the sound, drums
> included, on Some Girls, is very crisp and sharp
> as recorded/in the final mix. In that sense, kind
> of like a crisp Steely Dan recording.
>
> Can't wait til they get back on tour and then we
> can be talking happily (well, not always) about
> Charlie and the rest (AND The Plexiglass)!!
>
>
> P


It's all a matter of opinion, isn't it? To me, the drums sound like Watts is pounding tin cans on some songs on Some Girls. IMO, by Some Girls, Watts had become mere mortal, which often translates to uninspired for some. As for the reaching comment, sad to say, Watts isn't infallible. It would be a reach to say his drumming the last 30 years or so has been cutting edge type playing. I'd agree with the album v. live comments. He's been much better live the last 30 years than he has been in the studio.

1

1 and 3. The drum sound is poorer, but Charlie's sound (i.e. style and the effect of his playing) and performance is still great.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-18 10:49 by DandelionPowderman.

Rockman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about Charlie's HOT RIVET shots on It Won't
> Take Long....
>
> Ahh yeah No1.


Spot on Rockman!

Oh yeah, 1!!

Recording techniques have changed so much over the years, the use of loops and click tracks is now very much the norm, hence Charlies very disciplined and sometimes metronomic drum patterns. And explains why he has a looser style when playing live.

#8 Charlie is better now than in the past.

Just my opinion.

Besides, I consider Neighbours as a masterpiece of guitar/drum sound-interaction-all, so you know what my opinion is worth ...

C

"Recording techniques have changed so much over the years, the use of loops and click tracks is now very much the norm, hence Charlies very disciplined and sometimes metronomic drum patterns. "

the question is if we like that or not? and also you can proramm and loop beats that rock and you can do it not so well.

i don´t think the stones are known for programming cool beats, that´s other peoples business.

as a huge R. Wood fan, i do wish charlie would spend more time waving at the audience and pumpin' his crotch . . .

but i still have to go with 1.

Charlie is the man. End of the story.

I for one think you have a fair point. The sound of the drums is not too good lately. Or well, it changed anyway. Perhaps some like it, but I don`t.

I think there`s a couple of things that contribute to this:

- Charlie plays a jazz kit nowadays, not originally made for playing rock `n roll on and pounding the way Charlie does (and he does pound HARD!!).
- There`s always these things with new recording techniques.. most instruments, especially the guitars, have been sounding quite flat to me eversince the introduction of digital recording in stead of tapes. Drums do sound rather dull.
- These changes do not necessarily mean the sound is less pleasant. It`s just a complete different way of recording that goes with it. The way of copying/pasting, compressing, etc. These techniques may produce fantastic continuity and sound quality, however it sounds like your listening to a mash of very digitalized sounds.
- It`s common knowledge the Stones rarely play together and record real-time. Mick in, does his bit, Keith comes in, does his bit, Charlie comes in, does his bit. This takes any chemistry and/or natural interplay (which is a very important factor in a band like the Stones).
- Also, we must not forget Charlie has never been a technically great drummer. His way of drumming is a very onorthodox mix of jazz and rock techniques learned from just listening and watching.
-Last: the combination of Charlie`s age and his overall lack of care (which is charming) may also have an influence on the mediocre sound delivered in the studio.

Long John Stoner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't liked the way the drums have sounded
> since Some Girls, to be brutally honest. Not every
> song on Some Girls or every song since Some Girls,
> but that's when I noticed the decline in quality.
> For the lack of a better description, they sound
> all trebly to me, no bass or bottom to them.
> Whatever happened to the Sticky Fingers sound? You
> can take the drum parts from any number of songs
> and interchange them and no one would know. The
> drum parts on Flip the Switch, for example, could
> be from Hang Fire. I hated and actually still hate
> the drums from Neighbors. You Got Me Rocking, on
> the other hand, has a drum sound I like. But those
> moments are few and far between anymore.


You dont like the drum sound on Tattoo You? Christ - I think thats the best SOUND on any Stones album ever - and especially the drums ("Slave" being the standout example), although I can understand you not liking the drum sound on 'Neighbours', even if I like it personally.

I liked the sound on ABB too - especially It Wont Take Long and Dangerous Beauty. On the latter, it absolutely SNARLS. Great stuff.

Gazza Wrote:
>
>
> You dont like the drum sound on Tattoo You? Christ
> - I think thats the best SOUND on any Stones album
> ever - and especially the drums ("Slave" being the
> standout example), although I can understand you
> not liking the drum sound on 'Neighbours', even if
> I like it personally.


couldn't agree more. Black and Blue features some phenomenal drumming as well.

he has changed his style a bit in recent years, though: as erik snow once brilliantly pointed out, it's hard to tap subtlely when you're playing on an oil rig!

*everybody need a little help sometime!*

Sorry but his playin has become very unimaginative and stiff over the years.

He was on top of his game in 69! 72-73 was still good as well. In those days he was in competition with all those superdrummers of those times.

He could never play like them but at least he was stimulated from the mood of those days.

Live he's now just playin straight on without imagination and all those little tricks and breaks from the original records.