He's been using this technique for years (no hi-hat when hitting the snare), but when did he start with it?
What is the oldest recording it can be heard on?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-10-27 12:14 by z.

I noticed that too, that's an interesting question but I have no idea when he started... maybe he's always been doing that. I think I noticed from watching a concert video (Hampton '81 maybe, or LSTNT)....would you call that a technique? I'm not a drummer, I just thought it was a thing he did....

He's not been always doing that, and he doesn't do it ALL the time.
I think the idea is to produce a cleaner snare sound.
I'm no drummer either, but drummers told me it's not an easy thing to do.

Charlie was in his peak with this skipping in 81/82. I don't know when he started doing so though.

He started doing this around 72-73. You can hear him doing it on Goats Head, but not on Exile as I can remember. A funny thing is that wasn't doing it when he played the ride cymbal, but on the last tour he even skips the 2 and 4 on the ride very often. Another detail is that he's not doing it on fast swing beats like Rip This Joint",

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audun-eg Wrote:
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> He started doing this around 72-73. You can hear
> him doing it on Goats Head, but not on Exile as I
> can remember. A funny thing is that wasn't doing
> it when he played the ride cymbal, but on the last
> tour he even skips the 2 and 4 on the ride very
> often. Another detail is that he's not doing it on
> fast swing beats like Rip This Joint",


I remember an interview bit, where he said that he had this
technique from the early days to make the snare sound better.
So he kept it.

I am a drummer and I looked into this.
He didn't do this at the beginning but around 1980
was the first time I saw him doing this.
Start Me Up is about the earliest recording of Charlie doing this.
He doesn't do this when playing the ride cymbal, just the hight hats.
I've read too that he mentioned doing it for cleaner snare hit.

In my opinion, I've thought it was something that sort of developed between
Keith and Charlie. The Stones have written several songs that have space
in them. Start Me Up in an excellent example. Not only does the high hat miss a beat, so do the guitars. It's funny how a lot of folks don't really notice that. I sing Start Me Up so I've had several guitar players play that song and they almost always want to play straight through it. I have to tell them, don't play during that part, and suddenly the song takes off.

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

marvpeck Wrote:
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> I am a drummer and I looked into this.
> He didn't do this at the beginning but around
> 1980

He didn't do it consequently until the early eighties, but he started using this technique in the early seventies. Just listen to Goats Head. You can also see it in the videos from the seventies. Hot Stuff, Miss You, IORR, Angie etc.

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I remember something about this technique coming from Leven Helm's playing on the Basement Tapes.

4/4: 1-2-3-4. The snare comes in on the 3'er, doesn't it? Skipping the hi hat on 2 and 4 doesn't make sense to me. He skips it on the 3'er, right, when he hits the snare!? Or is there somthing I have not understood?

Nope, the snare is usually played on 2 and 4.
He skips on 2 and 4

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

Auden

I just checked the videos you mentioned and he's not doing it during the videos of hot stuff, miss you, IORR or Angie.

I checked the video for Start Me Up and it's there but interestingly, it's more subtle than it is now.

I don't mean this as nit-picking but it is something I've always found very interesting and I've been curious about it too.

Marv

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

You're right about the videos. Should have checked! (Even though I think he has a couple of "non-hits" in Angie) And as said bedore he didn''t do it consequently from the start. Just here and there on certain songs. And on Aux Abbattoirs from `76, I would say that he does it more often if not almost all the time. (without having watched the whole video, though...) Guess it kind of snuck in on him! On the other hand when listening to Out Of Control from 97, he bashes away on every note at the end of the song. Think I read somewhere that he does it to get more power in his snare hit.

[www.reverbnation.com]

..wow, thanks marvpeck......good question z

Anderson Wrote:
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> 4/4: 1-2-3-4. The snare comes in on the 3'er,
> doesn't it? Skipping the hi hat on 2 and 4 doesn't
> make sense to me. He skips it on the 3'er, right,
> when he hits the snare!? Or is there somthing I
> have not understood?

It can be if the drummer plays in half tempo. Ex. Slave. But regular 4/4 beat is kickdrum on 1 and, snare on 2 and 4 with hi hat or ride cymbal playing all notes.

[www.reverbnation.com]

would stuff on the Undercover album, such as "she was hot" and "wanna hold you" be an example of this playing?

ryanpow Wrote:
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> would stuff on the Undercover album, such as "she
> was hot" and "wanna hold you" be an example of
> this playing?

Yes, very much so.

[www.reverbnation.com]

He's doing this already in '69, only he opens up the hi-hat on the 2 and 4. He uses this technique until about '75, where instead of missing the 2 and 4 he purposesly hits the hi-hat extra hard. Starting from '77 Charlie starts to play four to the floor on the kick more often, and he emphesizes the dance beat of the 4 to the floor with missing out in the hi-hat. It gives an instant swing when you do that. This is also he first reason you want to miss the 2 and 4: it gives instant swing to a beat. The second reason is, and this is a reason more jazz drummers miss the 2 and/or 4, is to make way for the snare. Ever since Charlie changed from holding the left drum stick in a 'normal' manner to the 'buccaneer' style (I don't know how you call this in English -it's the jazz way of holding the left drumstick), he holds his right hand higher in the air to be able to put extra force in his left hand in order to hit the snare harder.

Mathijs

Mathijs

The different styles of holding drum sticks are "matched" which is what you called normal. It's like holding a hammer in each hand.

The jazz way of holding a stick is called "traditional" where the left stick is held with the first two fingers curled over the stick and the last two fingers curled under the stick.

I have to say I've watched Charlie pretty close on this, and I really never saw him start skipping the 2 and 4 on the high hats until about Start Me Up. I wish there were some videos of Charlie doing this before 1980, I'd love to see that!

I'm sure someone besides Charlie must do this too, but I have to confess I've never seen anyone else doing it. Maybe someone can tell us of another drummer that does this.

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

He doesn't seem to do it in Rock and Roll Circus which I watched last night so It has to be early 70's i think...

marvpeck Wrote:
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> Mathijs
>
> The different styles of holding drum sticks are
> "matched" which is what you called normal. It's
> like holding a hammer in each hand.
>
> The jazz way of holding a stick is called
> "traditional" where the left stick is held with
> the first two fingers curled over the stick and
> the last two fingers curled under the stick.

Yeah, I believe the jazz way is also called 'millitairy'.

>
> I have to say I've watched Charlie pretty close on
> this, and I really never saw him start skipping
> the 2 and 4 on the high hats until about Start Me
> Up. I wish there were some videos of Charlie
> doing this before 1980, I'd love to see that!

There's plenty actually. Charlie changed from standard grip to millitairy around 1968, and that's also when he started giving way on his right hand in order to hit harder with his left hand. Check out the video's from Gimme Shelter, 1969, and you can see clearly Charlie missing the hi-hat on the four (check the video of JJF and Carol for instance). On the 1972 tour it becomes more prenounced -the right hand arm swing gets wider, and Charlie opens the hi-hat once in a while to emphesize the swing. Check Youtube for many Ladies&Gentleman clips. Starting from 1975, he starts to miss the 2 as well. Check out All Down the Line from LA for example. The funny thing is that when Charlie misses the 2, he seems to get stuck once in while, and he seems to need to adjust by some hard hits on the hi-hat. I love Charlie's drumming on the '75 tour.

On the '78 tour Charlie starts the four to the floor beat with the kick -check out Respectable for example, and now he misses the 2 and te 4 deliberately in order to emphesize the swing feel of the beat. From Some Girls on, missing the 2 and 4 becomes the trademark of Charlie, but there's still many songs on the '81 tour that he doesn't miss the 2 and 4's on thehi-hat. It seems that when a song gets more frantic or with greater speed he needs to hit harder on the snare, and that's when he starts missing the hi-hat.

On the Voodoo Lounge tour it became really enoying in my opinion, as he opens the hi-hat on every 2 and 4. Every song then starts to sound a bit lame to me.

Mathijs

>
> I'm sure someone besides Charlie must do this too,
> but I have to confess I've never seen anyone else
> doing it. Maybe someone can tell us of another
> drummer that does this.

in case illustrations brighten things up for anyone ...


- 1966 by Stu; 1969 possibly by Eric Hayes

that's interesting to me, as his switch in position seems to coincide with a period of loose and rather busy playing on his part in the late 60s. of course there are signature tunes like "HTW" where he's very spare, but in particular I think of the Godard film of the "Sympathy" session. in the early going, he's all over the kit. maybe he's always this way early in jamming a song, so that he can pare down later, but I wonder if the grip switch had anything to do with it.

marvpeck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a drummer and I looked into this.
> He didn't do this at the beginning but around
> 1980
> was the first time I saw him doing this.
> Start Me Up is about the earliest recording of
> Charlie doing this.
> He doesn't do this when playing the ride cymbal,
> just the hight hats.
> I've read too that he mentioned doing it for
> cleaner snare hit.
>
> In my opinion, I've thought it was something that
> sort of developed between
> Keith and Charlie. The Stones have written
> several songs that have space
> in them. Start Me Up in an excellent example.
> Not only does the high hat miss a beat, so do the
> guitars. It's funny how a lot of folks don't
> really notice that. I sing Start Me Up so I've
> had several guitar players play that song and they
> almost always want to play straight through it. I
> have to tell them, don't play during that part,
> and suddenly the song takes off.

interesting observations marv, ty.
i also think bill had a hand in this somehow; i've noticed that bill is sort of a master of the 'staggered' note or the spaces between notes...htw and smu are obvious examples of this but it's kind of common on bill's playing on certain songs when they were 'pushing' the beat a certain way.

Btw, there's an interview with Charlie, if I remember correctly from Drummer magazine or something (I've read it on the net, so it's out there), where Charlie states that he changed grips due to Ian Stewart, who insisted that "all real drummers play millitairy style". He also talks about missing the hi-hat, and he states that it is an unconcious thing, and that it developed out of making way with the right arm in order to increase the range of the left wrist swing.

Btw, since about '81, Charlie also misses the 2 and 4 on the ride. Check the Let's Spend movies, and any concert movie afterwords.

Mathijs

Mathijs

There's plenty actually. Charlie changed from standard grip to millitairy around 1968, and that's also when he started giving way on his right hand in order to hit harder with his left hand. Check out the video's from Gimme Shelter, 1969, and you can see clearly Charlie missing the hi-hat on the four (check the video of JJF and Carol for instance).

I just looked at both of these songs and I'm afraid I don't see it.

Here's JJF





I don't see it there.

Here's Oh Carol:





They don't even show Charlie on this clip.

Your comments about Charlie bass drum patterns and opening the high hats I'll just skip since the original question was when did Charlie start lifting off the high hats on 2 and 4.

This still looks like the earliest video I've seen where he does this:





There's also some nice shots of Charlie smiling on this one ....

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

Thanks sssoul, a picture is truly worth a thousand words

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

>> Here's Oh Carol ... They don't even show Charlie on this clip <<

maybe Mathijs was thinking of Little Queenie? Charlie gets a bit of camera time in this one:

Well Charlie does get some face time on this one sure enough,
but he's playing all the beats on both the high hat and the ride.
Doesn't look like he was pulling off at this time.

Thanks
Marv

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

off topic a little, but i have come to really enjoy Charlie's work on the 75 and 76 tours, i think having ollie brown on percussion behind him really pushed him to do little interesting fills and stuff he had never done before - watching SFM from Aux Abattoirs really brought this home