I'm thinking about buying this guitar. Please tell me all your experiences with this guitar, good things, bad things... thanx!

I have a friend that had a 335 years ago and still misses it everyday. He loved that guitar and say's he's going to get another one someday.

Are you gonna buy an old 355? That's sounds like a great investement.

maybe old, maybe new...

I am thinking about to for a while, what's the price range of this guitar?

Cheers,
Wuudy

Slight variation: See item 220127372370 on E-bay (for charity),

"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."

I owned a similar guitar in the ES-335. I really liked the tone I got out of it andit was very easy to play. Oneof these days I'd like to get its cousin the ES-345 with a Bigsby!

..... what does the ES stand for,,, extra strenght ???

electric spanish: [www.gibson.com]

These are great guitars but I don't like the new ones too much. On old one would be a great investment but would need a lot of money up front. I have found the neck to be a little thin for my liking (big hands) but there is no denying how great the play and sound.

I saw Gary Moore play last year and he alternated between a Les Paul and a 335. I have to say that he sounded much better when playing the 335 - a more honking tone.

Another guitar to look into would be the Tokai. They do a les paul copy which is every bit as good as the gibson, but half the price. I haven't played their 335 copy but if it is similar in quality then I'd definitely try it out. It has to be the Jap one though and not the Korean one. [www.tokai-guitars.co.uk]

Good luck and enjoy playing it, whatever you buy.

Definitely a great guitar. You could also consider an Epiphone Casino with a Bigsby tailpiece.

try an Epiphone Sheraton for 600$ new. dont' worry where its made the quality is excellent and if it makes any difference there's a Gibson logo on the headpiece. Has a little bit (alot actually) of 335 in it plus some sg and les paul feel. NEVER goes out of tune, I have the natural which is quite a looker.

chippydodo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> try an Epiphone Sheraton for 600$ new. dont' worry
> where its made the quality is excellent and if it
> makes any difference there's a Gibson logo on the
> headpiece. Has a little bit (alot actually) of 335
> in it plus some sg and les paul feel. NEVER goes
> out of tune, I have the natural which is quite a
> looker.


I've had one of these for years now and it is indeed a great guitar. However, the stock pickups are very very bad and need replacing. I put Kent Armstrongs in mine and it now sounds every bit as good as a gibson. Also, the plug socket and switch will wear out and need replacing fairly soon. The gold hardware starts to wear off and tarnish pretty soon but it's simple enough to replace. That said, it is a great guitar if you're prepared to put in a little bit of work.

All in all though I reckon that the Tokai guitars are generally much better quality - indeed they are as good as the gibsons at less than half price. Who cares what logo is on the headstock? If I was making the choice now, I'd go for a Tokai instead of a gibson or an epiphone. They also do an exellent series of vintage / weathered finish guitars.

Ditto sjs's comments about the Tokais.
Check out the Japanese built Tokai ES100 and ES120. They'll give most current production Gibsons a bit of a fright.
The MIJ Epiphone Elitist "Dot" is another really good value score if you can find one.
The cheaper Korean built varients are great for the money too and are stiff competition for the Epiphone "Dot" and "Sherry".

Borna, I don't know where you live and what the relative prices are for these guitars in your neck of the woods but the general message seems to be that it is hard to justify the extra $$$ for the gibson 335 compared to something like the epiphone or the tokai. The epiphone offers less quality but at a drastically reduced price (in the UK you can pick one up for £250 second hand) whilst the tokai offer the same quality as gibson but at less than half the price. WHatever, it is very hard to see where the extra money is spent on the current production of gibson 335s compared with these other guitars. I mean, you could probably buy a tokai les paul copy, a tokai 335 copy and a jap tele for the same money as one gibson 335.

All that said, if you really do have several thousand in the bank, then a VINTAGE Gibson ES-335 would be really nice and would make a good investment too.

Whether you go the vintage route or not, join up here: www.lespaulforum.com

sjs12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whilst the
> tokai offer the same quality as gibson but at less
> than half the price. WHatever, it is very hard to
> see where the extra money is spent on the current
> production of gibson 335s compared with these
> other guitars. I mean, you could probably buy a
> tokai les paul copy, a tokai 335 copy and a jap
> tele for the same money as one gibson 335.

What a total load of bull. A genuine Gibson 335 and a Tokai are miles apart. Yes, Tokai guitars are well build, but lack in the material department by miles compared to a Gibson. Gibsons are just so much better, especially since the 335/345/355 range is now made in the semi-custom shop in Memphis. The wood, the hardware, the experience: if you want the sound of a Gibson yo go to buy a Gibson.

There's a vast range of ES-models to be found for fairly little money. Late '80's models are very good, especially the blond ones, and from the late 90's on all ES-models are good. They ca be found around the $1800 mark, and it is true: there's nothing like a real Gibson.

> All that said, if you really do have several
> thousand in the bank, then a VINTAGE Gibson ES-335
> would be really nice and would make a good
> investment too.

A vintage 335 from '59 will set you back $40.000, a '61 $25.000, a '64 $10.000, and anything after '67 about $5000 (but these are not good guitars). Buying a 335 from the current production is the best vaue fo your money. 355's are not easy to find by the way, they're produced in small qualities.

Mathijs

--



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-10 23:35 by stoneswashed77.

I've heard about those memphis models, as very good.

dang - € 4444,- for the ES-355

...but you can get a ES-335 Reissue for € 1900,-
[www.thomann.de]

so what are you looking at, Borna?

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [images4.thomann.de]
> pg
> dang - € 4444,- for the ES-355
>

But what a beautiful guitar! I would change all hardware to nickel, but man, this is a dream guitar!

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sjs12 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > whilst the
> > tokai offer the same quality as gibson but at
> less
> > than half the price. WHatever, it is very hard
> to
> > see where the extra money is spent on the
> current
> > production of gibson 335s compared with these
> > other guitars. I mean, you could probably buy
> a
> > tokai les paul copy, a tokai 335 copy and a jap
> > tele for the same money as one gibson 335.
>
> What a total load of bull. A genuine Gibson 335
> and a Tokai are miles apart. Yes, Tokai guitars
> are well build, but lack in the material
> department by miles compared to a Gibson. Gibsons
> are just so much better, especially since the
> 335/345/355 range is now made in the semi-custom
> shop in Memphis. The wood, the hardware, the
> experience: if you want the sound of a Gibson yo
> go to buy a Gibson.
>
> There's a vast range of ES-models to be found for
> fairly little money. Late '80's models are very
> good, especially the blond ones, and from the late
> 90's on all ES-models are good. They ca be found
> around the $1800 mark, and it is true: there's
> nothing like a real Gibson.
>
> > All that said, if you really do have several
> > thousand in the bank, then a VINTAGE Gibson
> ES-335
> > would be really nice and would make a good
> > investment too.
>
> A vintage 335 from '59 will set you back $40.000,
> a '61 $25.000, a '64 $10.000, and anything after
> '67 about $5000 (but these are not good guitars).
> Buying a 335 from the current production is the
> best vaue fo your money. 355's are not easy to
> find by the way, they're produced in small
> qualities.
>
> Mathijs


I have never heard such rubish in my life. When I last looked, the cost of a new production Gibson 335 was around £1500-£2000 UK price (i.e. $3000 - $4000) compared to the Tokai ES120 price of £500 - £700. There is no way in the world that you can claim that the new 335s are "worth" the extra $1000 or more. Now how can you justify 3 x the price without any significant improvements in quality? (All these prices are based on my highstreet UK music shops where prices are generally lower than RRP)

To be honest, I've played several new 335s and was far from impressed by their quality. They are lovely guitars - there's no doubt about it - but I just don't see where the extra money goes, except for the Gibson badge. You expect more for £2000 so I have generally been disapointed.

When I recently tried out some Gibson Les Pauls, I also tried out a Tokai Love Rock at the same time and, guess what, the Love Rock was better than the Gibsons. Everything about the Tokai was better and it was certainly better quality build. I can only surmise that you have been trying out the poorer quality Korean Tokais. What's more, it's not just me under this impression - a quick search on google yields the following quote...

"The highest quality Tokai models are considered by many to actually surpass the quality of contemporary Gibson and Fender models. Tokai Gibson replica guitars made in Korea (MIK) are of a lower quality, similar to Korean Epiphone guitars." Wikipedia

Nothing but praise for these guitars and I'm sorry if you haven't tried one out against the new gibsons because they are truly excellent value. I particularly recommend you try out a japanese LS150 love rock against a Les Paul Studio or Classic. For less money (they often crop up in sales for around £500-600), I garauntee that the Tokai will beat it hands down in terms of quality and playability. Only when you get to the more expensive les pauls will the gibsons start to have the edge, but then you are talking several times the price.

I am sorry Mathjis but sometimes your arrogance means that you forget the economics involved for many people in buying a guitar. Whilst there are many who no doubt have plenty of money to spend on Gibsons without a care in the world, there are others who question the value for money you get when other companies can produce as good or better guitars for less money.

So I will agree with you that the top of the range Gibsons may well be a better crafted guitar, but I still think the Jap Tokais are miles ahead of the bottom range gibsons for the money. Sometimes I think you are brainwashed.

sjs12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no way in the world that you can
> claim that the new 335s are "worth" the extra
> $1000 or more. Now how can you justify 3 x the
> price without any significant improvements in
> quality?

Yes I can justify that. Simply because I have owned and played just about every guitar in the world, made from about every country in the world.

I feel the Japanese are building beautiful guitars -in fact my number one guitar is a Jap Tele custom. But as with American guitars: you get what you pay for. And you just can not compare a $1000 Japanese guitar with a $2000 American guitar. Japanese build quality is excellent, no doubt about that. In fact, I find the eye for details better with the Japanese. But, for $1000 compared to $2000 you get terrible hardware: cheap pots, cheap soldering,cheap tuners, cheap nut, cheap pickups, cheap screws, cheap fret wire (my Jap Custom needs to be refretted after one year use: it just correded under my fingers).

It's not a put down from me, I love the $1000 guitars. But they simply can not hold up compred to $2000 or $3500 guitars. I have played Jap Tokai's, and they were brilliant. But they are just a step down from US Gibsons. It's the same as the difference between US Fender and Mex Fender.

And to ad: Jap guitars competing with the best of US guitars are also quite expensive: Zemaitis guitars start at $2000, Jap Fender Custom Shop start at $1500, equal to US Fenders. So if you buy true Jap quality, you pay American prices.


> To be honest, I've played several new 335s and was
> far from impressed by their quality. They are
> lovely guitars - there's no doubt about it - but I
> just don't see where the extra money goes, except
> for the Gibson badge. You expect more for £2000
> so I have generally been disapointed.

I thought the Memphis' ES series are about the best guitars Gibson has to offer, only surpassed by the Historic '59's. The money goes in to better wood, better pickups, better frets, better tuning gears, better pots, better bridge and stud, true nitro lacquer. Again, I am not dismissing Tokai, but it is like comparing a Vauxhall to a BMW.

> "The highest quality Tokai models are considered
> by many to actually surpass the quality of
> contemporary Gibson and Fender models. Tokai
> Gibson replica guitars made in Korea (MIK) are of
> a lower quality, similar to Korean Epiphone
> guitars." Wikipedia

Yes, internet is a beautiful place. But look up any piece of junk on Harmoney Central, and read all praising reviews. The judgement of any gear clearly is influence by prowess and experience, and what you expect from a guitar. And, most people who can not afford a American Fender will tell you that a Mexican Fender is "just as good, maybe better even".

> particularly recommend you try out a japanese
> LS150 love rock against a Les Paul Studio or
> Classic. For less money (they often crop up in
> sales for around £500-600), I garauntee that the
> Tokai will beat it hands down in terms of quality
> and playability.

Sorry, no. I recently tried out a bunch of Tokai Juniors, and they were great guitars. But if I bought one I would change the pickups, the tuners, the pots and the bridge. And a year later I would have it refretted. So why don't I just by a Gibson then?

> I am sorry Mathjis but sometimes your arrogance
> means that you forget the economics involved for
> many people in buying a guitar. Whilst there are
> many who no doubt have plenty of money to spend on
> Gibsons without a care in the world, there are
> others who question the value for money you get
> when other companies can produce as good or better
> guitars for less money.

You assume that I have unlimited money to spend. That's a erroneous assumption. I hardly ever bought a guitar without having to sell another. But when you're on a limited budget it is a mistake to think that paying $1000 for a Tokai will buy you the quality of a $2000 Gibson. It won't.

> So I will agree with you that the top of the range
> Gibsons may well be a better crafted guitar, but I
> still think the Jap Tokais are miles ahead of the
> bottom range gibsons for the money.

Well, that is something else you state here. I agree with you: a Jap Fender is much better than a Mex Fender. A Jap Tokai Love Rock is much (much!) better than an Epi, and it's also much better than a LP Studio. But it certainly isn't better than a US LP Standard. And compared to my Historic '59...

But each their own: if you don't feel and see the difference between a $1000 Tokai and a $2000 US Gibson just buy the Tokai: they're great guitars.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I feel the Japanese are building beautiful guitars
> -in fact my number one guitar is a Jap Tele
> custom. But as with American guitars: you get what
> you pay for. And you just can not compare a $1000
> Japanese guitar with a $2000 American guitar.
> Japanese build quality is excellent, no doubt
> about that. In fact, I find the eye for details
> better with the Japanese. But, for $1000 compared
> to $2000 you get terrible hardware: cheap pots,
> cheap soldering,cheap tuners, cheap nut, cheap
> pickups, cheap screws, cheap fret wire (my Jap
> Custom needs to be refretted after one year use:
> it just correded under my fingers).
>
> It's not a put down from me, I love the $1000
> guitars. But they simply can not hold up compred
> to $2000 or $3500 guitars. I have played Jap
> Tokai's, and they were brilliant. But they are
> just a step down from US Gibsons. It's the same as
> the difference between US Fender and Mex Fender.

I suspect you tried out a cheaper Tokai - maybe the Love Rock LS75 - and made the comparison to that one. Now try out a LS150 and then come back to me - I think you will be very pleasantly surprised.

I personally felt that the Tokai had better quality components than the Gibsons. Maybe it comes down to taste but the LS150 was honestly a better guitar than any of the Gibsons I tried out - Studio or Standard. Anything more than that and it was way out of my price range. The Tokai played better, felt more solid, had smoother pots, a better jack socket and sounded just as good.

The Tokais use top quality components and materials - everything from Western Electric wires, one piece solid mahogany back, carved maple top, Switchcraft jack sockets, true nitrocellulose finish etc etc. Just check them out. This is just the opposite of what you said - far from the cheap and nasty components you wrongly attribute to these guitars. Again, I suspect you are making the comparison to either the MIK models or the lower range jap models which, I agree, are more like the difference between MIM and USA fenders - the MIK ones being more like epiphones.

I can't vouch for your jap custom but I'm talking about Tokais here, not jap fenders - which I think are also excellent value for money btw. I have played many a guitar too - both cheap and expensive - for many a year, but I have never had frets disintegrate on me, ever. I gig 1 or 2 times a week and practice with the band twice a week too. When you say that such extreme things happen to you it really makes me wonder what you are doing because you really must be punishing your guitars. Even my cheap old epiphone sheriton which I've had since I was 17 and has been through more bangs and scrapes than Frank Spencer never had anything like that happen to it.

>
> But each their own: if you don't feel and see the
> difference between a $1000 Tokai and a $2000 US
> Gibson just buy the Tokai: they're great guitars.
>
> Mathijs

I do feel and see the difference. The difference between the LS150 and LP Studio is plain for all to see - the Tokai is better. The differences between the studio and LS150 is less but it is still hard to justify the extra money for just a logo, and I believe that the Tokai is better than the basic models. And I definitely see a difference with the really expensive gibsons but then I'd need to remortgage! Even you admit that the Tokai is better than the studio and, once you have tried out the LS150, you'll probably agree that they are better than the basic studios too.

I actually wonder if you know the difference though because you claim that the Tokais use cheap components or don't have nitro finish when it is not true. Again, I'd love to know which ones you tried.

Btw, the equation is maybe different in the US but in UK the difference is 3 or 4 times the price. A Gibson Studio might be $2000 but we're talking much more than that for a standard - about $3000.

One further item for contemplation, Gibson were so worried about Tokai's quality that they filed a law suit against them. The only other company I know they did that with was PRS. And yet there are hundreds of LP copy guitars out there which Gibson was not worried about. Why would Gibson worry about Tokai and PRS and not all the others? Perhaps it has something to do with the quality of both of these guitars? I leave you to mull this over....

sjs12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect you tried out a cheaper Tokai - maybe
> the Love Rock LS75 - and made the comparison to
> that one. Now try out a LS150 and then come back
> to me - I think you will be very pleasantly
> surprised.

No, I tried out a bunch of LS-150's, one 320, several SG's and a ES-120 in natural. And I think we just have to agree to disagree, they were all very fine guitars but they simply didn't have the tone and feel of a real Gibson.

> The Tokais use top quality components and
> materials - everything from Western Electric
> wires, one piece solid mahogany back, carved maple
> top, Switchcraft jack sockets, true nitrocellulose
> finish etc etc.

Not entirely true. What you describe is the 320 model, and that is their most expensive Custom shop model, costing around $2800. The 150 models I tried all had a very thin maple cap (thicker than a veneer, but not the solid 0.75 inch of hard wood. The carve (and the body contour!) were all very different to a Gibson LP. The dish was flatter, the upper bout is elongated and the treble horn is shorter. The lacquer is what the Japanese call Matte Nitro, which is a matte poly undercoat with a thin nitro overcoat (this is also done by Fender on their Vintage Reissue serie guitars). The pots were decent short shafts pots (although audio, not taper), and the short shaft was needed as the maple cap is thinner. The trapeziod inlays were of cheap plastic, as was the nut. The rosewood board was nice, but fairly wide grained, as seen on LP Studio's and the like. Tuners, stud and bridge are of generic Gotoh quality, which is not bad, but also not really good. The pickups were from Gotoh as well, and were o.k. They were fairly bright and punchy, but missed the woodiness and that flute-like quality of a really good PAF-clone. Frets were good, especially the dressing, although I do think that they will need replacement within a couple of years.

I do agree with the workmanship: the Japanese really know how to build a guitar.

> I can't vouch for your jap custom but I'm talking
> about Tokais here, not jap fenders - which I think
> are also excellent value for money btw. I have
> played many a guitar too - both cheap and
> expensive - for many a year, but I have never had
> frets disintegrate on me, ever.

It has happened a lot to me, but it also has to do with my preferences. I don't like skinny frets, and with the cheaper Strats and Tele's the fretwire almost always is very thin, and made out of a lesser quality nickel/steel. After about a year, the frets start to show a greenish hue, and the top of the fret becomes smaller and more sharp. Notes start to choke, and with a vibrato you hear the grinding between fret and string. I have had this with a Japanese and Mexican Tele, and never with a more expensive American guitar.

> I do feel and see the difference. The difference
> between the LS150 and LP Studio is plain for all
> to see - the Tokai is better.

I agree.

> And I definitely see a
> difference with the really expensive gibsons but
> then I'd need to remortgage! Even you admit that
> the Tokai is better than the studio and, once you
> have tried out the LS150, you'll probably agree
> that they are better than the basic studios too.

One thing I do agree with is that Gibson guitars ARE priced very high. It's a combination of the value of the dollar and the pricing strategy of Gibson. The ES-355 pictured above costs 4500 euro, and that is an awful lot of money for a wooden box with strings. Historic '59 LP's are now around 5200 euro's -it's insane.

But you can buy a second hand, one year old '59 Historic LP for 3200 euro, a second hand '58 Historic LP for around 2200 euro, a second hand LP standard for around 1400 euro. If I had to choose between a new LS-150 and a second hand LP Standard, I'll always choose the standard.

> Btw, the equation is maybe different in the US but
> in UK the difference is 3 or 4 times the price. A
> Gibson Studio might be $2000 but we're talking
> much more than that for a standard - about $3000.

$2000 for a Studio is a crying shame! In Holland Studio's are around 1000 euro.

> One further item for contemplation, Gibson were so
> worried about Tokai's quality that they filed a
> law suit against them. The only other company I
> know they did that with was PRS. And yet there
> are hundreds of LP copy guitars out there which
> Gibson was not worried about. Why would Gibson
> worry about Tokai and PRS and not all the others?

Because in the '80's Tokai WERE building better instruments than Fender and Gibson. Tokai, and the rest of the Japanese brands, are the main reason Fender and Gibson started to improve on quality and production, which lasts until this day.

But: many people believe that early 80's JV series Fenders are better than real Fender guitars. It just isn't true: they WERE better compared to an early '80's Fender, but if you compare a JV series Fender to current production model, they're really not that good guitars at all, an certainly not worth the stupid money traders are asking for one.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-13 01:20 by Mathijs.

this black one looks very cool, but I prefer dark red finish. Could you post some pics of this guitar?

Mathjis, check out the spec for the new LS120. I think we have been talking cross purposes here. On the UK Tokai guitars page it is listed under new products rather than with the rest of the LS range.

Other than that, I think we're coming to some sort of compromised consensus here. We both agree that the Tokais are better than at least the studios but we disagree where the Gibsons overtake the Tokais. Also, my judgment is somewhat influenced by the exchange rate in the UK vs Euro. The only thing I don't understand is why they are so expensive in the UK compared to in the states when the exchange rate is what it is. I guess this is the pricing strategy you talk of.

With a price of around £1000 or more for a new les paul studio ($2000) (although you can get down to around £850 in a sale if your lucky) maybe you can see where the problem lies when the Tokai LS120 can be bought for £500. (You can generally get an excellent discount on the Tokai but not so good on the gibsons, probably for obvious reasons)

Borna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this black one looks very cool, but I prefer dark
> red finish. Could you post some pics of this
> guitar?


Haven't found a red ES-355, only a ES-335 in faded cherry.
I don't think they have a darker red.


€ 2300,-

Me playing around with a 1966 ES335 cherry, unfortunately not mine!



this is the same guitar in detail




C

Funny eyes you have there, my dear!!!! Kinda Nellcote-looking-eyes, LOL!

[There'll be no wedding today...]