I used to play a lot of guitar, but unfortunately I haven't kept it up.

Why not? I can't stop playing, I'm addicted to the frets.

No special reason, really.
Too busy with other things, I guess.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian did not write the riff, but he did
> > transform it to this biting, aggressive riff
> that
> > makes it this great song.
>
>
> Mathijs, how do you know Brian did not write the
> riff? The Staples Singers' version does not have
> this riff.

First I want to say: the version posted by With Sssoul is NOT the version I've known for a couple of years! The version I know is a much more soulful version, much more a Vendellas / Ronnettes kind of soul, with both the main vocal chorus line present as well as the main melody that Brian plays. Also, I remember an original Hawaiien version played on Dutch TV that also had guitar line present that Brian plays. I must find out what those versions where.

> You're not telling me,
> Mathijs, that Keith created the riff and
> 'instructed' Brian to play it, are you?

I do not know whether that is the case with this song, but of course this is not uncommon for any band, and certainly not for the Stones. There's many examples of cases like this, where Keith wrote the song or riff, and that someone else in the band plays it.

> Keith never claimed to have
> authored the riff, so that leaves Brian.

But Mick, Keith, Bill, Charlie, Andrew Loog Oldham, Andy Johns and many, many more have told the same story about The Last Time being the first good rock number written by Mick and Keith. There is not ONE statement that Brian Jones had anything to do with writing this song.

> He
> played the riff so we must assume that he alone
> created this incredible riff.

That could be possible, but it also could be that the riff just fitted his playing style, or even that he demanded to play this riff, as at this moment in time in Stones history Brian still thought of himself as the leader of the band. He for example also had claimed to play the first ever lead guitar in a Stones single (I Wanna be Your Man), while keith was the much better lead guitar player.

> If that indeed is
> the case, then The Last Time should have been
> credited to Jagger-Richards-Jones or Jagger-Jones!

If Jones wrote the riff, than I would assume he would have gotten the credits. At this point of time it wasn't yet the anti-Brian mode of '67. I think at this early stage in time, if anyone outside Jagger/Richards contributed to the song, it would have been a Nanker/Phelge credit. I just don't think that this early on in their carreer there was already an agreement between jagger and richards about song writing, and there certainly wasn't any conspiracy against Brian, as the Nanker/Phelge banner was used up to late '65.

Mathijs

>> First I want to say: the version posted by With Sssoul is NOT the version I've known for a couple of years!
The version I know is a much more soulful version, much more a Vendellas / Ronnettes kind of soul,
with both the main vocal chorus line present as well as the main melody that Brian plays.
Also, I remember an original Hawaiien version played on Dutch TV that also had guitar line present that Brian plays.
I must find out what those versions were. <<

if you can track them down, Mathijs, i'd love to hear them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-25 09:29 by with sssoul.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First I want to say: the version posted by With
> Sssoul is NOT the version I've known for a couple
> of years! The version I know is a much more
> soulful version, much more a Vendellas / Ronnettes
> kind of soul, with both the main vocal chorus line
> present as well as the main melody that Brian
> plays.


I would like to hear this version. So, you're saying that Brian copped his riff from an obscure version of This May Be The Last Time? This may be hard to verify.


> There's many examples of cases like this, where Keith
> wrote the song or riff, and that someone else in
> the band plays it.


In the case of The Last Time, I highly doubt it. The Last Time riff is not a typical Keith 'strummed chord' riff. There is a slide-like style to the Last Time riff, where the fingers slide up and down the fretboard. Brian does the same thing on the riffs for Mercy, Mercy and GOOMC, all three songs being recorded and released in 1965. Obviously, Brian acquired the style for playing those respective riffs from having used a bottleneck for years. Thus, Keith probably could not have created, let alone taught, such riffs.


> But Mick, Keith, Bill, Charlie, Andrew Loog
> Oldham, Andy Johns and many, many more have told
> the same story about The Last Time being the first
> good rock number written by Mick and Keith. There
> is not ONE statement that Brian Jones had anything
> to do with writing this song.


Well, ALO was hell-bent on having the whole world know that Mick and Keith authored everything. That was the Stones official PR campaign back then, to prop up Mick and Keith in order to compete with Lennon-Macca. But how accurate was that? Are we to blindly believe that EVERY Stones song was solely written by those two? MT, Bill, Ry Cooder, and Woody have had a few interesting things to say about that over the years.


> I think at this early stage in time, if anyone
> outside Jagger/Richards contributed to the song,
> it would have been a Nanker/Phelge credit. I just
> don't think that this early on in their carreer
> there was already an agreement between jagger and
> richards about song writing, and there certainly
> wasn't any conspiracy against Brian, as the
> Nanker/Phelge banner was used up to late '65.


That's wrong. The songwriting agreement between Mick, Keith, and ALO was already set in motion by mid-1964 with the release of Tell Me. By the time The Last Time was released in early 1965, Nanker/Phelge was already on its final death throes. The Last Time was the first non-cover Stones mega-hit and there was no way in hell ALO was going to have it credited to Nanker/Phelge, even if Brian authored and played that all-important riff.

An other version ....................by the Staples Singers ?????

[www.yousendit.com]


I'm not a citizen from the USA so I'm not able to check this link out, maybe someone from the states can give it a try ?

[play.rhapsody.com]

__________________________

I just
> don't think that this early on in their carreer
> there was already an agreement between jagger and
> richards about song writing, and there certainly
> wasn't any conspiracy against Brian, as the
> Nanker/Phelge banner was used up to late '65.
>
> Mathijs


They wanted to fire him in 1964-65. Actually things got better thanks to the shortlived friendship between Brian and Keith in 1966, due to druguse.

>> Another version by the Staple Singers ??? <<

thanks Nicos - where are all the Staple Ladies on that one, though?!
it would be great to know when the different versions were recorded, if anyone can help with that
(Rockman honey are you reading this thread??) the one i posted seems to be from the album Too Close,
but i'm still trying to find the original release date: [www.amazon.com]

it's also on their 1961 VeeJay release called Swing Low: [www.bsnpubs.com]

>> LP-5014 - Swing Low - Staple Singers [1961] Born In Bethlehem/Stand By Me/I've Been Scorned/Two Wings/
Calling Me/Swing Low/Sit Down Servant/Day Is Passed And Gone/Good News/Let's Go Home/This May Be The Last Time <<

here's Swing Low on CD, complete with sample snippets to listen to: [www.amazon.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-25 11:03 by with sssoul.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, you're
> saying that Brian copped his riff from an obscure
> version of This May Be The Last Time? This may be
> hard to verify.

No, he didn't "cop" it, he adjusted the main melody line of the song to this energized, sneering electric guitar lead line. Just as many blues songs were adopted and adjusted by the Stones. They transformed black American music into white British music: that was the trade of the Stones from 1962 until mid 1964, when they started writing there own music.

> In the case of The Last Time, I highly doubt it.
> The Last Time riff is not a typical Keith
> 'strummed chord' riff. There is a slide-like
> style to the Last Time riff, where the fingers
> slide up and down the fretboard. Brian does the
> same thing on the riffs for Mercy, Mercy and
> GOOMC, all three songs being recorded and released
> in 1965. Obviously, Brian acquired the style for
> playing those respective riffs from having used a
> bottleneck for years. Thus, Keith probably could
> not have created, let alone taught, such riffs.

I find your train of thoughts hard to comprehend. Do you play guitar or any music yourself? The intro of The Last Time is a clear adaptation of Jimmy Rogers / Hubert Sumlin Chicago style two-string turn-arounds, and these originate from players like Robert Johnson. These are the kind of riffs and slides that Keith and Brian excelled in. The intro riff is easy to play, but sounds quite complicated. This riff could be written and played by both Jones and Richards, you really can't say from the style or technical difficulty.

To me, the genius in the riff (and in the song) is not so much the riff itself, but the way it sounds: this is truly one of the first real rock riffs. The sneering, aggressive sound was nothing like any other pop band had produced at the time, including the Stones. Recorded in the U.S. on a trebly Fender amp turned up loud instead of the usual dark sounding Vox amps, this riff is truly rock avant le lettre. To me, the song itself stalls a bit after the first minute or so. After the rush of the intro guitar is settled, and after the first chorus and verse the song starts to sound repetitive and fades away a bit.

The reasons why Jones plays the riff can be manifold: he could have written it, he could have demanded to play the lead line as he thought he was still in charge, but personally I think it more has to do with recording technique: in '65 you only had 4 or 8 tracks maximum (in the U.S. eight tracks), and songs had to be recorded live, with only a minimum amount of overdubs available after recording.

I personally think it was decided that in the main take of the recording Keith would play acoustic, Brian electric, and all other musicians playing live in the same room. Overdubs would be the electric guitar solo by Keith and vocals and backing vocals by Jagger and Richards. So again, from the recoding you can not draw any conclusion from whom wrote what. The riff can be written by either Jones or Richards from this point of view.

> Well, ALO was hell-bent on having the whole world
> know that Mick and Keith authored everything.
> That was the Stones official PR campaign back
> then, to prop up Mick and Keith in order to
> compete with Lennon-Macca. But how accurate was
> that? Are we to blindly believe that EVERY Stones
> song was solely written by those two? MT, Bill,
> Ry Cooder, and Woody have had a few interesting
> things to say about that over the years.

I don't know exactly, but I do think at this time the Stones still were a bunch of guys trying to concur the world, and that they were still really a band of five equal members, including Brian Jones. Look at the record they released with all the blues tracks in early '65 (No. 2) and Out of Our Heads in July '65: Brian still really had a big hand in choosing the songs, and even received credits on three tracks of the latter album. Until and including Out of Heads everything was still just a big experiment on how to concur the world.

It wasn't until Satisfaction became such a big hit, with the following '65 U.S. tour that Jagger and Richards really started to produce so many songs, and by doing this together factually excluding Brian Jones from the song writing process. I really do think this was a natural process: Jones simply either couldn't write songs at all, or his ideas weren't good enough. Fact is that Jagger and Richards formed a song writing tandem only surpassed by Lennon and McCartney.

> That's wrong. The songwriting agreement between
> Mick, Keith, and ALO was already set in motion by
> mid-1964 with the release of Tell Me. By the time
> The Last Time was released in early 1965,
> Nanker/Phelge was already on its final death
> throes.

This is factually wrong. Out of Our Heads from July '65 contains three Nanker/Phelge songs. As said, the '65 U.S. tour is where Jagger and Richards starting churning out this incredible amount of songs, and hence December's Children is full with Jagger and Richards originals.

> The Last Time was the first non-cover
> Stones mega-hit and there was no way in hell ALO
> was going to have it credited to Nanker/Phelge,
> even if Brian authored and played that
> all-important riff.

Factually wrong. It would have benefited Oldham if The Last Time WAS credited to Nanker/Phelge, as he was part of the Nanker/Phelge deal. He would have earned a lot more. By the way, TLT was not a major hit, it went to number 9 in the US for only two weeks. The first mega hit was Satisfaction.

Your problem is that you only want to see everything negatively for Brian: everything the Stones (Jagger, Richards and Oldham) have ever done their entire life is cheat poor old Brian. They stole his songs, they stole his ideas, they cheated him. I think it's just not true.

I think fact is that it just so happened that Jagger and Richards turned out to be one of the most prolific writing teams in the world, while Brian clearly did not have the talent to write songs, or if he wrote songs he didn't present them to the band.

Don't forget that while Jagger/Richards started to write all the songs from late '65 on, also Brian's role got bigger and bigger. He introduced the myriad of exotic instruments to the Stones, and from late '65 until mid-'67 he was a huge part of the sound of the Stones, with Aftermath, BtB and Satanic as result. Especially Aftermath is a master piece: yes, all songs are written by Jagger and Richards, but without Jones (and Wyman!), the album could not have been made.

Until mid-67 Brian was a well respected member of the Stones, having a huge influence on the music made. But it was Jagger and Richards whom wrote the songs, and not Brian Jones -not because he was cheated out of the song writing process, but because he couldn't compete with jagger and Richards. But who can?

Mathijs

Well said Mathijs! So many valid points.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To me, the genius in the riff (and in the song) is
> not so much the riff itself, but the way it
> sounds: this is truly one of the first real rock
> riffs. The sneering, aggressive sound was nothing
> like any other pop band had produced at the time,
> including the Stones. Recorded in the U.S. on a
> trebly Fender amp turned up loud instead of the
> usual dark sounding Vox amps, this riff is truly
> rock avant le lettre. To me, the song itself
> stalls a bit after the first minute or so. After
> the rush of the intro guitar is settled, and after
> the first chorus and verse the song starts to
> sound repetitive and fades away a bit.

to me too: it's mainly because the intro guitar is turned down in the mix once the verse comes. I hate that! it's still done today; the stones get a pass for writing one of the first songs of the type. much better when the vocals come in with no decrease in the rest of the band.

a reverse effect is on "It's All Over Now." the mix is done so well that it catches fire when mick enters on vocals, after a kind of static intro.

cc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To me, the genius in the riff (and in the song)
> is
> > not so much the riff itself, but the way it
> > sounds: this is truly one of the first real
> rock
> > riffs. The sneering, aggressive sound was
> nothing
> > like any other pop band had produced at the
> time,
> > including the Stones.



Brian knew how to make instruments sound great even when he didnt master them. His riff is truly great.

Amazingly, everyone in the band had/has the ability to make instruments sound great, even when they didn't master them!

The Last Time is a great record because of the great BAND playing it, not because of one individual.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amazingly, everyone in the band had/has the
> ability to make instruments sound great, even when
> they didn't master them!
>
> The Last Time is a great record because of the
> great BAND playing it, not because of one
> individual.


Nah, I think this is one that is great thanks to Brian and Mick. The refrain is pretty bad and it's the riff written and played by Brian and Mick's singing that makes it a hit.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find your train of thoughts hard to comprehend.
> Do you play guitar or any music yourself?


No. My wife, however, says I sing nicely in the shower . . .


> The intro of The Last Time is a clear adaptation of
> Jimmy Rogers / Hubert Sumlin Chicago style
> two-string turn-arounds, and these originate from
> players like Robert Johnson.


I don't hear much Robert Johnson on the TLT riff. Now, Muddy . . . maybe. To me, as you said yourself, the TLT riff is very unique and revolutionary, but I think it's very hard to trace its roots.


> To me, the genius in the riff (and in the song) is
> not so much the riff itself, but the way it
> sounds: this is truly one of the first real rock
> riffs. The sneering, aggressive sound was nothing
> like any other pop band had produced at the time,
> including the Stones. Recorded in the U.S. on a
> trebly Fender amp turned up loud instead of the
> usual dark sounding Vox amps, this riff is truly
> rock avant le lettre. To me, the song itself
> stalls a bit after the first minute or so. After
> the rush of the intro guitar is settled, and after
> the first chorus and verse the song starts to
> sound repetitive and fades away a bit.



I bow to your wisdom here, Mathijs. Bravo!


> Your problem is that you only want to see
> everything negatively for Brian: everything the
> Stones (Jagger, Richards and Oldham) have ever
> done their entire life is cheat poor old Brian.
> They stole his songs, they stole his ideas, they
> cheated him. I think it's just not true.


Wrong. I am not saying that Mick and Keith stole Brian's songs, ideas, etc.
I have stated that Brian probably deserved credit for SOME songs like TLT. That's all. I was only responding to your assertion earlier in this thread that Brian did not write the riff on TLT.

Apologies- With sssoul...missed ya Q....

First version of This May Be The Last Time by Staples
is the on Chicago label United in 1954...very gospel sounding with
slight guitar intro then mainly piano driven...Released as Sharp 603

VeeJay version recorded approx a year later in 1958 (correction)....
Possibly??? the version the Stones might have first heard seeing that VeeJay
was a larger company and featured such artists as Jimmy Reed...John Lee Hooker.



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-27 06:24 by Rockman.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't hear much Robert Johnson on the TLT riff.
> Now, Muddy . . . maybe. To me, as you said
> yourself, the TLT riff is very unique and
> revolutionary, but I think it's very hard to trace
> its roots.

It's not hard at all. It's a typical 2-string turn-around, played at the last bar of a 12 bar blues, or at any chord change in any swing, jazz or blues progression.

There are of course many original blues guitarists from the '20's and '30's whom developed and played in this style, but Robert Johnson is without a doubt the most influential, and licks like these have been perfected by T-bone Walker, Freddy King, Otis Rush, Buddy Guy, and later white blues men like Clapton, Green and Taylor.

Brian's intro to TLT is exactly such turn-around, and basically is a countrified version of a Chuck Berry intro's and turn-arounds. The first chord he plays is typical Chuck Berry style, and later used by Keith in bout 80% of his solo's, especially on Chuck Berry songs (second solo of Little Queenie from Ya-Ya's, the second part if the Let it Rock solo from leeds '71), and he used this slided chord always on the middle part of Midnight Rambler. The slided chord is:

x x o
2 -> 3 3
3 -> 4 4
x x x
x x x
x x x

Brian fingerpicks the slide, and he actually ommits the B string in the first strike. The second part of he intro is just the D and A chord finger picked: first he hits the D-string, the the D chord (actually a Dsus4 as he doesn't use the E string), the the A string and A chord. This latter part is more or a country feel than a blues feel.

From the intro it is impossible to say whether Brian or keith wrote it. Both could have played it, and both could have taken it either from old blues records or from Chuck Berry records. The use of the slide chord is more typical of Keith Richards, but that's not saying much. The only clue we have on who wrote what is the stories as told by many people, including all Stones, and that is that this was the first uptempo Jager/Richards number. As far as I know Brian has never claimed it was his riff, but there aren't many interviews from him about this subject.

Mathijs

I should point out that live performances show Brian playing it using a plectrum and fingering at the 6th - 9th fret and with open D and A strings.

Like this, escuse my shabby tab...

1)-
2)-
3)- - - - 7 - 9 - - - - 7
4)-7 s 9- -9 - - 0- 7- - - - - 6
5)- - - - - - - - - - - - 0- 7
6)-



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-26 16:32 by His Majesty.

thanks Rockman! a Stax version, eh - what album is that on?

thanks Mathijs & HM too - i could never figure out why anyone would say this riff could only be conceived of
by a proficient slide player, so i'm glad there was some reason for my puzzlement.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I should point out that live performances show
> Brian playing it using a plectrum and fingering at
> the 6th - 9th fret and with open D and A strings.
>
> Like this, escuse my shabby tab...
>
> 1)-
> 2)-
> 3)- - - - 7 - 9 - - - - 7
> 4)-7 s 9- -9 - - 0- 7- - - - - 6
> 5)- - - - - - - - - - - - 0- 7
> 6)-


Yep. In fact, I thought he played it othe 6th on the studio track as well, but I just played along with it and noticed that he played it on the first position in the studio.

And I just thougt of another reference for the riff: it is very much the same as the main guitar riff of Walking the Dog, here played by Keith.

Mathijs

Isn't it like this ? (live & studio)

|-------------------------------------------------
|-------------------------------------------------
|-----------7-------9-----------7------------6----
|---7 s 9-------9-------0 h 9---------------------
|-----------------------------------0 h 7---------
|-------------------------------------------------

Christian, the phrases outline the chords they play over, D and A for the last two. I don't hear or see Brian play hammer ons as such. *I made a mistake with the last note, it's meant to be on the 3rd/G string.

I also don't think he played it at the first position in the studio, but it's not important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-26 22:38 by His Majesty.

thanks Rockman! a Stax version, eh - what album is that on?

EEErrrr well coulda swore there was a Stax version on
one of the albums but when I checked there ain't..did a Stax
search but nothing....So don't listen to me...A good friend has
book listing all gospel recordings so see if I can get a loan of it
and find out exactly how many times they did record This May Be The Last time



ROCKMAN

thanks Rockman - that will be fascinating, if you can.
there's a version on a "Stones covers" album, but i have no idea if it's one of their early ones
or a new rendition specially for this release: [www.amazon.co.uk]

OK with sssoul this is what my friend
Michael has passed onto me from his gospel book..

Only two versions listed....

Sharp 603 recorded in 1954....
VeeJay recorded in 1958 - Matrix 58-826.
VeeJay always use year in first part of matrix



ROCKMAN

thanks my dear and thanks to your friend Michael - that i guess would be the two i posted.
if Michael and his book feel up to it: are there any versions by Pop Staples in non-family company?
trying to identify the version Nicos posted a few posts back. thanks & thanks & have some popcorn

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Christian, the phrases outline the chords they
> play over, D and A for the last two. I don't hear
> or see Brian play hammer ons as such. *I made a
> mistake with the last note, it's meant to be on
> the 3rd/G string.
>
> I also don't think he played it at the first
> position in the studio, but it's not important.


the riff was discussed on this thread:
[groups.google.fr]

Christian Wrote:
> the riff was discussed on this thread:
> [groups.google.fr]
> e_thread/thread/57fdca2a9517486/1eb44aadb8c37a31?l
> nk=gst&q=rich+kent+%22slowing+down%22&rnum=1&hl=fr
> #1eb44aadb8c37a31

Yeah, I tried it slowed down and you're right.

here's a Pop Staples version, but it's not the one Nicos posted:
[www.amazon.com]