Bob Dylan reflected on the modern sound in Rolling Stone of August 2006. [www.rollingstone.com]

stone-relics Wrote:
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>
> I am lucky, as I have all the Stones (3,000+)
> records in pretty much pristine condition....
>
> JR


Impressive collection!

Lets look at it a bit more technical. The CD data resolution is simply not high enough. Its 16 bits at a sample rate of 44Khz. In recording studios a resolution of 24 bits at 196 Khz is standard. Basically you can say the number of bits has the biggest influence about how well the dynamics are reproduced and 24 bits is 256 times more accurate than 16 bits. The Khz on the other hand are mostly resonsible for the details of the sound, thats what most people refer to as cold or warm sounding. 196Khz is four times more accurate than 44Khz of the CD which results in a much warmer sound. I was once in a recording studio were a band recorded in 24Bits/192Khz. The sound engineer made me a little sample where he rendered a part the recording to the CD format of 16bits/44Khz so i could directly compare the two formats. The difference was unbelieveable.
Since this expirience i hope that the 24bits/192Khz becomes the standard for consumer electronics since it really sounds analog while still having all the advantages of a CD (won't help with the small cover of course).

At last Firebird goes into the subject a bit different - and I agree.
the red book, Audio CD Standard is dated by now and needs a new standard.

Who had a high class turntable in 1964?
correct speed? problems with warping vinyl? dust & scratches?
low frequency rumbling of the motor and stylus?

it's not all that bright as most of you decribe it.

>>The RIAA has suggested the following acceptable losses: down to 20 kHz after one play, 18 kHz after three plays, 17 kHz after five, 16 kHz after eight, 14 kHz after fifteen, 13 kHz after twenty five, 10 kHz after thirty five, and 8 kHz after eighty plays. While this degradation is possible if the record is played on improperly set up equipment, many collectors of LPs report excellent sound quality on LPs played many more times when using care and high quality equipment.<<

The modern high quality stylus navigates a completely different part of the groove to our old "radiograms". Many old records are effectively in great condition as a result of this.
I used to work in high end audio and I could go into pages of science and psycoacoustics...but I won't [Hooray ! ;^) ]

The bottom line is that there will be a point at which digital recording and playback is so good that our ears can't tell...but we ain't there yet !

The fundamental difference between the way that analogue and digital systems distort is a big factor.
Analogue systems distort primarily by adding harmonic distortion,noise and resonant emphasis to the signal. Our ears and brain are actually pretty good at filtering out all this crap and hearing through to the intact musical signal behind it all.
The distortion is largely additive.
Digital sytems distort largely by omission. Musical information is lost in the digital conversion processes...and cannot be put back once it's gone.
That's why many high end CD based systems sound absolutely perfect...apart from the fact that "something" isn't quite right and the music ain't doing anything for us !
Stick a vinyl record on an old Rega or Thorens turntable, and you'll smile and dance the second the needle hits the groove...despite the obvious harmonic distortion and mechanical resonances colouring the sound.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-14 19:12 by Spud.

many recordings from the 60's on vinyl..there was no bass...(no space on the vinyl)so when the cd era started,,,i was knocked out ,by hearing things i never heard before,

Beelyboy:

>zappa used to talk about the sterility of the digital media quite a bit...<

Where have you read or heard that? I have followed Zappa's interviews and writing pretty extensively in his lifetime - or at least thought I did - and I have never heard him do anything but praise digital transfers.


Stone_relics: I am a vinyl guy too (am 48). However, at the Vinyl Asylum, there are experts that pretend they can prove anytime with LPs correctly burned onto CDs that the CD medium itself is a perfectly transparent one: that blindfolded, you could not tell them apart. And that the reason so many CDs suck is that the digital-era engineers are simply not music-minded people but computer geeks. I personnaly have not an iota of competence to defend or destroy this theory. But as I HAVE heard decent, pretty fantastic CDs, this stance sounds attractive to me.

[www.tinfoil.com]

Remember the great old sound of an 8 tracks cartridge...

yeah especially when halfway through a song it would jump over to the next track, that was awesome. NOT

arizojp Wrote:
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> Remember the great old sound of an 8 tracks
> cartridge...
>
> [img296.imageshack.us]


oh sure...top of the line.....lurve when the channel would change right in the middle of a song........the good 'ol daze

Yeah but watch it: some of those 8-tracks can sound not half bad at all!

My son ran Abbey Road once on 8-track. I could not believe the bass guitar: never heard the album that way (I must say I am familiar with the American pressing though...).

At least whoever sequenced that 8-track of Let It Bleed had the sense to put Gimme Shelter at the beginning at You Can't Always Get What You Want at the end. What happens in between looks like a train wreck.

I know I am in the minority here, but I think that the SACD releases sound very, very good -- to these ears better than the LP's. Even the early mono tunes have both power and warmth, with clear, extended highs. I have a decent, but not ultra-high end, set up, with a very good SACD player.

x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-05 21:12 by Beelyboy.

SACD is very good. The problem is that it will never be a mass market medium.
Sadly, quality is no longer an issue when it comes to choosing media for recorded music . It's all driven by online delivery and compressing the information into the smallest possible format.
Digital recording itself isn't the problem. The problem is that the industry adopted it as a standard long before it was anywhere near good enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-11-15 19:15 by Spud.

Thanks beelyboy for some great reading!

The majority of Zappa's CD catalogue is plagued with bad sonics, too much digital reberb, etc. FZ supervised / gave final approval of the new masters when he go tot be very sick (with prostate, then bone cancer). According to long time bass player Scott Thunes, Zappa's long years of touring and loud electric guitar extravaganzas had took a serious toll on his earing and esp. of high frequencies.

But I think the digital mastering that was done by Spencer Chrislu (Lather, You Are What You Is remaster, Tinsetown Rebellion remaster, The Yellow Shark...) is faultlessly wonderful! There is "air" and "overhead" / you can actually use the volume knob (see problem with "A Bigger Bang" and lots of other modern day CDs), and I find these are just as warm sounding and "un-fatiguing" as their vinyl LP counterparts.

Help!!

Where's the best place to get replacement needles (I'm in Canada)??? I've got all this vinyl, Taxile, Black & Blue Sessions, New York 78, and NO WAY TO PLAY IT!

Somebody please save me before I cry.

Wait a minute, I am in Canada too and it's not THAT hard!

La Source (formerly Radio Shack... Circuit City in the USA?) offers quite a few replacement needle models. Be patient with their salespersons at the computer though: this stuff is esoterism/black magic to them!

I don't know where you are but in the Montreal area, there a FEW high-end Hi-Fi shops that have some of that over-the-counter too.

Vinyls all the way. A million times better sound than on CD. CDs sound "cold" and LPs sound "warm". I won't even comment on mp3 as the sound on that really sucks.

JumpingKentFlash

What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is

it must be said some lps sound like ass..

one inparticular is hall and oates rockn'soul vol 1..disgraceful..

record companies started making vinyl crappier and crappier...

compare the thick slabs they were pressing in the 50s with what was coming out by the 70s...

Odd-beat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a minute, I am in Canada too and it's not
> THAT hard!
>
> La Source (formerly Radio Shack... Circuit City in
> the USA?) offers quite a few replacement needle
> models. Be patient with their salespersons at the
> computer though: this stuff is esoterism/black
> magic to them!
>
> I don't know where you are but in the Montreal
> area, there a FEW high-end Hi-Fi shops that have
> some of that over-the-counter too.

I'm in the Ottawa area. Thanks. La Source is called The Source here, and there's one not too far away from me.

Cheers

Would NEVER EVER replace all my Stones vinyls (1.300+) by CDs or MP3s or stuff like that. Warm sound, beautiful covers, inlets, booklets...
Of course I have CD copies for my car, but at home I only play the vinyls. And I would never lend them so somebody else, not even my best friends. It's kind of philosophy I think
Susan

Pleased to meet you,
hope you guess my name...

>What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS about it is
What I DON"T MISS ...<

Well you can get that with CDs too! And DVDs!!

The only difference is with a vinyl record you can actually SEE what the problem is, at least under a magnifying glass, and if you want to hang on to your specific LP instead of returning it, it can often be fixed!

jamesfdouglas:

If this doesn't work (The Source) and you are looking for a SHURE replacement needle in Canada, call Dominique or Alexandre, at Moog Audio (in Montreal), at 514-284-7434.