>> since there are more male fans, there are more male 'complainers'. <<

well, at any rate there seem to be more males posting here on iorr, so ... right: of course there are more males complaining -
and more males enthusing, and discussing the music, and discussing the Stones' looks/clothes/personalities,
and getting the facts right, and getting the facts wrong, and so on.

>> Look at the Olympia DVD-- diehard fans-- and they are all men. <<

the women are there! in GA situations there are always some guys who elbow anyone they can out of the way, that's all -
i guess they're convinced the Stones would rather look at them during a show than at she-fans. :E

>> But many people still harbor the taught/conditioned/socialized (whatever you wanna call it) masculine/feminie "roles" <<

the notion that she-fans love the ballads best is a variant of that, isn't it.
when someone asks "what shall i put on the CD for my GF" the responses are almost always a list of ballads.
(LoFL: i suggested Little T&A for one of those CDs once, and was treated as if i'd suggested molesting the woman or something.)
that kind of "conditioning" looks to me like atavistic fear crossed with wishful thinking:
"lord help us if the women start responding to this glorious raunch -
so let's keep insisting that they don't - maybe someone will believe us!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-03-25 00:18 by with sssoul.

Debra,

You just took my breath away, good post.

Again I'm not trying to denigrate the females here, just pointing out what I see out there. If you were doing a statistical analysis of my question, you would start by taking a sample of the Stones population and analyze it. This forum being the oldest operating fan club would qualify as an acceptable sample of Stones fans. If you break down the users and their posting habits I think it will support my hypothesis.

Of course scientifically speaking, which I have not entered into. Mine was merely a visual observation.

Some Girl,

There are more women in college than men hence more graduates and more future Stones fans.

Thanks Siclian. I know you're talking statistically. There are certainly more serious male fans of the Stones than female, there are 75% more male musicians than female musicians, I'd guess( my stat, just what I think is a realistic number). Having been around musicians all of my life and most of my male friends play some instrument or another, very well, I look at the Stones more as a guy would( except for the way I look at MICK!). I hear the Stones the way guys do. I watch everything and I think I'm very good at separating the brass section from the rhythym section and guitars so I enjoy the show in it's entirety! Best of both worlds! I watch Mick shake his cute little butt plus I enjoy the entire musical experience! That's not being sexist, Mick knows he has a cute derriere!

But isnt this really about men being collectors and a bit anal about rock bands? Women are too but it seems to be more a male thing. Nowadays old men probably identify in some ways with them, I dont, and im not old, I like their 70s and Brian in the 60s which coauld be more female if you like. They are unisex just ike most artists. And yes there are female hardcore stonesfans who love them. Mick however has written many songs from a sexist point of view.

Debra,

I try to keep my observations to above the waist for the fellas, and just the opposite for the ladies (below the chin) at shows.

Being a long time fan as you are, I'm sure you have much more insight and knowledge of the band than I do. It seems that a lot of people here have a lot of respect for you. So I send you mine as well.

I do reserve the right to disagree with you on occasion as my ego allows.

I don't mind in the least when folks disagree with me, it often helps to learn something new and at the very least, it broadens my perspective! I sure have more to learn about music and the Stones and most of what I've learned I've read in biographies or I picked up here, usually from male fans. The learning never ends! If I've gained respect here, I'm grateful and pleased to think the guys like to hear my opinions. I enjoy what you have to say Sicilian, and I'll not get bent if you present an opinion that is not my own!

I'm a guy and I think Mick has a beautiful ass

I think the whole notion of this thread is completely inane. It says something about the mentality of someone who cares to spend his time focusing on finding differences that are not really important in the grand scheme of things versus rediscovering the wonder of the appeal of this terrific band that brings so many people together.

Charles Baudelaire
1821-1867

remember in Gimme Shelter when mick's lookin' at the editing screen at tina's performance...studying and absorbing it with incredible focus...
then it ends...the docu-camera does a closeup on mick as he snidely snorts a droll,
"...chicks"

no comment lol; just a memorrryyyyyyy....

No Charles it is not inane, the thread is meant to get you all thinking universally rather than horizontally. It did bring you here for a little response because you thought about it too.




Here is a little tribute for you Charles:

"It is by universal misunderstanding that all agree. For if, by ill luck, people understood each other, they would never agree."

Charles Baudelaire
French poet (1821 - 1867)

I definitely want more from women than from the stones...

Comprende?

The Sicilian,

Dylan took it one step forward and said "If my thought dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine."

That is a great pic of Chuck. Thanks! When it comes to equality among the sexes, Charles Baudelaire was not the leading light guiding all from the darkness. Although it would be unfair to call him a mysogynist, he certainly had his sexist moments. However those moments are not dissimilar to those that happened to many a great poet and recording artist like Dylan ("Leopard Skin Pillbox Hat" etc.) for example.

His poem "A celle qui est trop gaie" is one of my favourites. I also love his vampire and lesbian poems. The one where he writes something like "J'ai cherché dans l'amour un sommeil oublieux ;Mais l'amour n'est pour moi qu'un matelas d'aiguilles Fait pour donner à boire à ces cruelles filles !" from La fontaine de sang.


I also love this one: "J'ai demandé souvent à des vins captieux
D'endormir pour un jour la terreur qui me mine;
Le vin rend l'oeil plus clair et l'oreille plus fine!"

Charles Baudelaire
1821-1867




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-03-26 17:43 by Charles.

Rip This Joint, COOL that you have the courage to notice and SAY that about Mick's derriere!! Very Funny!! And Charles, I think that was a good point.

thanks Debra...........but........isn't that what Mick was all about........the king of androgyny......it was never only just about the music.........otherwise Mick and Keith also to a great extent would never have dressed and presented themselves the way they did

Excellent topic, Sicilian. It may not be PC, but I believe there are differences whether that's good or bad.

I think LA Forum nailed it on the head; men tend to dissect it, to collect, to imitate their guitar playing (but imitation will not lead to success), to try to learn the techniques and focus on what chords they are playing.
I noticed at the rehearsals 2002, for example, I would notice the songs they were playing but not write it down, whereas the guys there would QUANTIFY their experience....by writing down the songs rehearsed, the length of each song. I would focus on my entire experience & the interactions, meeting them & other stones fans. To most male fans, that was of little interest. Men tended to approach it as an "opportunity" or an "enterprise"; ie--to make videos to sell to the other fans, to try to get connections so that they got into the club gig. It was interesting also that I noticed some male fans tended to resent or feel jealous that the stones were paying attention/signing autographs to the female fans instead of them (because they perceived themselves as being the REAL fans while perceiving us as mere 'groupies', needless to say that's untrue).

As a female fan on this board and other stones boards, I have noticed there is at times a lack of respect there....maybe it comes from the whole "sex drugs and rock n roll" fantasy, or this cock-rock style of the band. The stones DO have their fair share of sexist songs, and I've noticed quite a few of them do not get performed live these days....no doubt partly because of the PC society that we live in now, and because the audience is multi-generational with many young ones in the audience...it's more of a family affair these days.

Myself, I am very interested in the setlist, the history of the band, the interactions, the personality of the members, their fashion sense, their showmanship on stage and do they look like they're having fun up there. I pay attention to how "tight" and how "loose" they sound live, I collect some bootlegs but am by no means a completist. My bootlegs are very disorganized, unlabelled in a "laissez-faire" manner, whereas most male stones are probably the opposite because it is how they define themselves as a stones fan, and something they pride themselves in. Almost a competitive thing, as if the more bootlegs you have the bigger a fan you are....again they QUANTIFY it...and they perceive the more shows you've been to, the more money you spend, the farther you travel the bigger a stones fan you are. Which I view as complete nonsense!! Not sure how the rest of the females think about that, but I tend to try to keep the stones in priority in my life.

Another difference-- females who may be very knowledgeable about a particular band member may be falsely assumed by some unkind/jealous male fan as being obssessed. However if it's a male fan, and their knowledge is even more detailed and consuming they tend to be respected instead of labelled in such a way. It ties in with a view of women as mere groupies instead of appreciating the music itself.

There's alot more factors involved for women. For example my sister likes the stones music greatest hits, but she's not that big a fan and wouldn't pay these kind of prices to see them. She also does not approve of Jagger's cheating ways, lol.

Rip This made an excellent point-- it is the stones' image and androgyny that got them noticed and made them successful in the first place, so the visual appeal has its place and is equally important as the music itself. Men tend to forget that. And the androgyny of the image is also present in the music, and for "modern women" who can relate to alot of the themes in the stones' music, like a role reversal.
Bottom line--the music was made to be listened to and enjoyed. We all have ears and if it gives all of us joy that's what unites us here.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-03-27 01:55 by Miss U..

MissU,

Here is the essence of an angdrogynous look.



How dare you devulge our inner male secrets. I might have to peek in your jeans to see if there is fruit of the loom or hanes her way in there!!!!

And don't tell me your a Ottawa Senators fan either.

As I try to tell the disbelievers, if you seriously look at this thread for what it really says and think about it from outside the box, you get a better perspective of the differences.

Bowie was a freak show.........if you all remember the 70's.... no one knew what he was...........an alien perhaps.............whereas Mick was shocking and stunningly beautiful........which was very disturbing to many people....especially men......on many levels

Brian was the first rock star to wear women's apparel & costume jewellry, had that androgynous vibe too but still very manly. I find often Ronnie's outfits, jewellry abit like that too. Example--that yellow tank he wore at the Rio show.
Mick nowadays seems to dress in tshirts and pants, more conservative than in days past. I do like his metallic jackets.

Wasn't this a fun discussion back then.

Quote
The Sicilian


Not being sexist, and no offense to the fine knowledgeable women at our beloved site here, but take a look at some of the posts on this and other sites (if you can tell the men from women). Men tend to be more concerned with the details of the music and band whereas women are more into hearing the songs they know and the rock star appeal. IMO just thru observations.

Men are concerned with the set-list, history, chords, lyrics, etc... women I don't feel really care as much about these things as their male counterparts. If we are talking about that 5% of hardcore audience does the statement still apply?

With such uneven representations of the genders in the population, there's no way you can seriously compare.

but i can't even think of women on IORR posting about "hearing the songs they know and the rock star appeal". which gender posted in the thread on 2009 tour song requests? [www.iorr.org]. i'm not sure what threads would apply to "rock star appeal". can you give an example?

Do men want more from Stones than women?

Dunno, but I'll tell you what the dog used to want ... and that was for me to turn the volume down.

My impression is that men (boys!) in general are more interested in music than women, and that this is especially so with (noisy!) Stones music.

If it is true that the men dissect the music more... I believe they HAVE to do this to mask the sexual attraction they may have to the Rolling Stones, we women do not have to hide/deny this. Guys - just GO with it - the only shame is your own shame - forget about it.

If we are going to make crazy sexual generalizations - then lets say that the men spend more time dissecting the music because they are too busy f*cking off when they should be helping out around the house - what's your wife doing while your doing this, food shopping, making dinner, watching the kids, cleaning the house and probably working full time too.

Paul have you now brought a third gender into this? Men, women and dogs?

Quote
paulywaul
Do men want more from Stones than women?

Dunno, but I'll tell you what the dog used to want ... and that was for me to turn the volume down.

Quote
Limbostone
The Sicilian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Men are concerned with the set-list, history,
> chords, lyrics, etc...

That's because we're obsessed with schemes, statistics, history, tables and structure when it comes to our hobbies.

The romantic and unstructured part, which women build from adorations and relating, is certainly present with the men as well, but we fill it in with beer and insane drunken talking.

That is the truth!

I find this thread to be very revealing and interesting. NOTE that the DEBRA that posted in 2006 is ME now! I had to use DEBRA back then because of a run-in with AOL, too long a story and not relevant. Anyway, at times I have thought that because I'm obviously female, my opinions were not treated as seriously as the male posters'; this was a rare occurence, however. With that said, I cannot deny the fact that I am drawn to Mick in a different way than my counterparts here on this board. Yes, I do defend his honor in ways that a man may not. I still believe that I have been somewhat objective in reviewing the Stones musically, and AGAIN, I know that I am famous for siding with Mick's solo efforts over Keith's!! LOL!! Where I have been most critical is in their set list selections and in the cost of tickets. I have been a hard core fan since the 60's so I remember ticket prices under $20! YIKES! I AM GETTING OLDER! I think that MISS U's post was accurate when she spoke of how anal some male fans are about cateloging and collecting. It's like a great competition!! I too am a collector, not so much of bootlegs anymore though. I don't think that factor determines how deep your allegiance goes to the band. Whoever said that the music is the common denominator was exactly right. THe MUSIC of the Stones joins all of us and that is truly a wonderful thing.

Maybe a way to count : Let's count the "Please play this" and the "Ideal setlist" threads on IORR and see which of men or women post the more !!! lol

---

Sorry for my english ; I'm a french little boy (but I like it)

I'm a woman and what I want is a tour featuring more emphais on the band, more early songs and less backing musicians unless they're "guest stars" a la Clapton, Beck, Thorogood, John Hammond etc. etc,less over the top stage production. In other words, the less Las Vegas the better. In arenas or comfortable venues that hold no more than 25,000 men, women and children.

But I will settle for whatever The Rolling Stones 'cos their my band.

This is normally the point where I would say something offensive and piss everyone off, but I'm a little short on creativity today. Man, I picked the wrong week to go off drugs.

Quote
CindyC
If it is true that the men dissect the music more... I believe they HAVE to do this to mask the sexual attraction they may have to the Rolling Stones, we women do not have to hide/deny this. Guys - just GO with it - the only shame is your own shame - forget about it.

If we are going to make crazy sexual generalizations - then lets say that the men spend more time dissecting the music because they are too busy f*cking off when they should be helping out around the house - what's your wife doing while your doing this, food shopping, making dinner, watching the kids, cleaning the house and probably working full time too.

Cindy, Cindy,

There is more to life than just doing household chores. For the record, I do all the grocery shopping, and work 65 hours a week, help clean and watch my children. I get home late during the week so I don't cook but I do make Sunday dinner. Many nights I have washed dishes at midnight and wake up at 5:15am to start all over again. (I do have a 3 year old daughter in addition to two young teen daughters) I also take care of all outdoor needs such as cutting the grass and cleaning the pool. Shall I continue??

I'm sure a lot of men do the same. Its called time management. Only there is not enough time to do everything. Do I need to come home from work and crack a beer to wind down? Hell no. I don't drink the piss. Pepsi or milk work for me, and sometimes an energy drink.

A sexual attraction to the Stones? I don't think so. I don't have any sexual fantasies including the Stones, or Amy Whinehouse. You see, in general, I don't fantisize about someone that I will never have. A waste of time. It has to someone where the possibility exists for contact. Now you have a male secret to ponder.