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Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: yorkshirestone ()
Date: October 24, 2023 14:42

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keefriffhards
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matxil
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MonkeyMan2000
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matxil
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keefgotsoul
Are the bridges the weakest parts of this album? I like the whole album but it seems like the bridges in some songs take the steam out of them. Like Sweet Sounds. The song keeps building and gaining momentum, then the bridge happens and it seems like a wrong turn.

In general, yes, they feel forced and unnecessary. Although in Sweet Sounds it's okay.

I think the bridges are great. Stevie's Moog on Sweet Sounds is the highlight of the song for me. The bridge on Live by the Sword could be directly from Undercover (All The Way Down) and the bridge on Dreamy Skies comes quite late at an unexpected point and helps to justify the rest of the development of the song.

My main gripe with the album are some of the choruses. Often the verses are great and raunchy and then the chorus comes around and makes it just a bit too clear that it wants to be a chorus. In Angry, Whole Wide World and Mess it Up the choruses are wayyy to poppy for my taste. Too clean, forced and early 2000's radio pop rock. Very cheesy. While at the same time the verses are inspired and driving. But on Depending on You the pop melody of the chorus works well and there's some great choruses in the other songs: Get Close and Live by the Sword.

Well, you might have a point there because I don't like All The Way Down either. One of the worst songs on Undercover, partly - indeed - because of the bridge.

I agree that the choruses, in general, are very pop. It's a pop album, it is what it is. On Angry and WWW it's alright, I think.
Get Close is something where I feel I'm in a different universe. The rest of the album I can listen to, but I find Get Close absolutely terrible. Third-rate pop, with no guitars to speak of.

How you hear Get Close is how i hear most of the Album, as a pop record it's okay, it's an old man trying to appear accessible and relevant to young listeners, from the standpoint of possibly the Stones final album to add to their legacy it's un listenable.
It's very much like Goddess In The Doorway, an average Mick solo album, which over the years I've grown to appreciate, Mick's solo albums were not really all that bad, perhaps in time i will look at HD that way but for now I'm shocked the way i was when ABB was released, shocked because i doubt i will want to play a Stones album again in a hurry.

How are people rating half the tracks on the album 10 out of 10, does that mean that posters think these tracks are as good as the best work ever including Exile etc.
Are people so desperate to fit in with others that they will give 10/10 for acceptance or fear of personal attacks, fascinating stuff, I'm learning more about our species on here than anywhere else..


*yawns* just because people rate it doesn’t mean they are trying to fit in. More that they actually like it. Just because you don’t doesn’t make you the arbiter of taste around here. Tiresome

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:01

MadMetaforicalMax

Cheers for your insightful reply, i like your balanced attitude and to some extent i understand this is an exciting sound.
I also think I'm not alone in being a huge Stones fan but unfortunately a bit sceptical of this album, its sound and Andrew Watt.
Wasn't it Steve Jordan who said he thought the Gimmers were capable of making a great album with just his help.
It is what it is.

Thanks for your reply though, I'll give you guys a well earned break.
Enjoy your album thumbs up

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: powerage78 ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:21

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Idorh
According to Woody, these 12 from Hackney Diamonds are not even the best songs of the 23 recorded during the sessions. That bodes well, delightful enjoyment in my old age.

So it's safe to say that the next album (IS) will be better than HD. That's great. Nothing changes.
Thanks Ronnie.
The Stones are great.
Seriously...



***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:22

Hmm.. there is not even a week since the release of a new Stones album, and people are already talking about the next album. Anybody already started THE counting? "5 days and counting..." (RIP Hairball).

But, in general, what the hell we know about the songs we have not heard. The experience shows that there'd been songs that weren't fitting or suitable for the album deriving from the sessions, but were used later. EXILE and TATTOO YOU are great exercises of that. I think in the case of, say, "Sweet Virginia" or "Loving Cup" it was not the case that they were not good songs, but for some reason there was not room for them before EXILE (I think, for example, "Dead Flowers" was the reason for leaving "Sweet Virginia" out - one pure country number per single album will do. And let us not forget "Wild Horses" either). Things like "Waiting On A Friend" or "Tops" were left out of GOATS HEAD SOUP because there already were so many similar melodic pieces. As was the case of "Worried About You" in regard to BLACK & BLUE - I guess "Memory Motel" and "Fool To Cry" were standing in its way. Probably having one more long soul ballad was simply too much. Probably "Slave" suffered the same fate due to other funky pieces like "Hot Stuff" and "Hey Negrita". And so on. (Then there are those out-takes from whatever sessions we die-hard fans are crazy for - until they are officially releasedgrinning smiley. Probably the out-takes of DIRTY WORK will never see the light of the day, and thereby never lose their magic.)

Had the band and their producer had similar release philosophy as when making, say, A BIGGER BANG, it could be that we might have had a half dozen or so more tracks on the new album - stylistically over-lapping with the material released now. More variations of the same theme. But they decided against that in order the album being more coherent and avoiding repetition.

Then we have SOME GIRLS - that in terms of urgency is somehow similar case as HACKNEY DIAMONDS (this is nothing to do with comparing those albums in quality or all that 'best since' crap). They had a certain vision there and they picked up suitable songs to fill that vision. They wanted to update and refresh the band's sound and for that they would leave a helluva amount of material aside that didn't fit to the statement. All that c&w stuff that the bonus album is full of. Whatever stylistically the same old, the same old was cruelly shown the boot. Even such a gem like "Start Me Up" was way too retro and pastiche sounding for them to use at the time.

So what history will teach us is that there might very well material there on the can that is quality-wise a dream come true to many fans.

But, but... Probably we could open a new thread for the speculations about the next album....grinning smiley

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 15:56 by Doxa.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: RobertJohnson ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:36

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Doxa
Hmm.. there is not even week since the release of a new Stones album, and people are already talking about the next album. Anybody already started THE counting? "5 days and counting..." (RIP Hairball).

But, in general, what the hell we know about the songs we have not heard. The experience shows that there'd been songs that weren't fitting or suitable for the album deriving from the sessions, but were used later. EXILE and TATTOO YOU are great exercises of that. I think in the case of, say, "Sweet Virginia" or "Loving Cup" it was not the case that they were not good songs, but for some reason there was not room for them before EXILE (I think, for example, "Dead Flowers" was the reason for leaving "Sweet Virginia" out - one pure country number per single album will do). Things like "Waiting On A Friend" or "Tops" were left out of GOATS HEAD SOUP because there already were so many similar melodic pieces. As was the case of "Worried About You" in regard to BLACK & BLUE - I guess "Memory Motel" and "Fool To Cry" were standing in its way. Probably having one more long soul ballad was simply too much. Probably "Slave" suffered the same fate due to other funky pieces like "Hot Stuff" and "Hey Negrita". And so on. (Then there are those out-takes from whatever sessions we die-hard fans are crazy for - until they are officially releasedgrinning smiley. Probably the out-takes of DIRTY WORK will never see the light of the day, and thereby never lose their magic.)

Had the band and their producer had similar release philosophy as when making, say, A BIGGER BANG, it could be that we might have had a half dozen or so more tracks on the new album - stylistically over-lapping with the material released now. More variations of the same theme. But they decided against that in order the album being more coherent and avoiding repetition.

Then we have SOME GIRLS - that in terms of urgency is somehow similar case as HACKNEY DIAMONDS (this is nothing to do with comparing those albums in quality or all that 'best since' crap). They had a certain vision there they and they picked up suitable songs to fill that vision. They wanted update the band sound and for that they would leave a helluva amount of material aside that didn't fit to the statement. All that c&w stuff that the bonus album is full of. Whatever stylistically the same old, the same old was cruelly shown the boot. Even such a gem like "Start Me Up" was way too retro and pastiche sounding for them to use at the time.

So what history will teach us is that there might very well material there on the can that is quality-wise a dream come true to many fans.

But, but... Probably we could open a new thread for the speculations about the next album....grinning smiley

- Doxa

Count me among the people who are in favor of this.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Idorh ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:36

These guys are around 80, it's a wonder this album. It is very nice to know that good stuff from the Stones will come out next year or later. I now enjoy this album day in and day out and have prior pleasure that this would not be their last album.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Putty ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:40

More Barça merch, in case it hasn’t been posted :

[store.fcbarcelona.com]

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:44

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keefriffhards
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DandelionPowderman


We know that HD isn't their last album, as they're 3/4 finished with the next one. Did you miss the press conference, Riffie?

No DP didn't miss a thing, but take into account this album has been coming for over 5 years and Mick and Keith are 80 I'm not holding my breath for the next album.
If it's tracks that weren't good enough for this album it might not be that fantastic.

There is a vital distinction though between a) songs that were not good enough to be included, and b) songs that are less suited to a collection of songs that are included.

Otherwise, what seems to be forgotten, where there for long was procrastination ( which may be quite a different phenomenen than this "wall"), a change came about when the "deadline" was reintroduced into the band's existence.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:49

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Putty
More Barça merch, in case it hasn’t been posted :

[store.fcbarcelona.com]

Really cool!!

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: October 24, 2023 15:59

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Idorh
According to Woody, these 12 from Hackney Diamonds are not even the best songs of the 23 recorded during the sessions. That bodes well, delightful enjoyment in my old age.

Do you remember during which interview he said so?
Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 15:59 by HardRiffin.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 24, 2023 16:11

Myself I don't know at all what to think about this album. It probably will be rather long before I know. I read some posts, but abstain from others that disturb my own experience too much in my humble approach to it.

All the same, there is one idea I read about that puzzles me. It is the suggested point of view that this is rather much a pop album. Myself I have used that term with the important qualification "progressive pop" about the sequence of albums made up of AFTERMATH, BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST and the singles from, say (with some uncertainty), "Satisfaction" up to and including "We Love You"/ "Dandelion". Apart from that, not. Now I wonder in what sense some posters consider this album a pop album.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: ROLLINGSTONE ()
Date: October 24, 2023 16:32

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Putty
More Barça merch, in case it hasn’t been posted :

[store.fcbarcelona.com]


Team signed edition comes in at a mere 3,000 Euros. Thankfully sold-out before I did something really stupid!grinning smiley

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Idorh ()
Date: October 24, 2023 16:33

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HardRiffin
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Idorh
According to Woody, these 12 from Hackney Diamonds are not even the best songs of the 23 recorded during the sessions. That bodes well, delightful enjoyment in my old age.

Do you remember during which interview he said so?
Thanks!

Honestly I really can't figure that out anymore. I did read and see so much on the internet in recent weeks, I just remember what stands out. It also came down to the fact that they chose the right order on the album.


I also read on a Dutch side that Mick says there are more sessions with Charlie, and might be used. But I don't save anything, that's beyond me now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 16:36 by Idorh.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: October 24, 2023 16:35

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Idorh
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HardRiffin
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Idorh
According to Woody, these 12 from Hackney Diamonds are not even the best songs of the 23 recorded during the sessions. That bodes well, delightful enjoyment in my old age.

Do you remember during which interview he said so?
Thanks!

Honestly I really can't figure that out anymore. I did read and see so much on the internet in recent weeks, I just remember what stands out. I also read on a Dutch side that Mick says there are more sessions with Charlie, and might be used. But I don't save anything, that's beyond me now.

thumbs up

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 24, 2023 16:58

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Witness
Myself I don't know at all what to think about this album. It probably will be rather long before I know. I read some posts, but abstain from others that disturb my own experience too much in my humble approach to it.

All the same, there is one idea I read about that puzzles me. It is the suggested point of view that this is rather much a pop album. Myself I have used that term with the important qualification "progressive pop" about the sequence of albums made up of AFTERMATH, BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST and the singles from, say (with some uncertainty), "Satisfaction" up to and including "We Love You"/ "Dandelion". Apart from that, not. Now I wonder in what sense some posters consider this album a pop album.

Yeah, take your time, Witness. As I do as well - except offering some 'formal' descriptions in order to grasp it (the stuff I did last page).

But as far as that 'pop album' claim goes, I am not qualified to say anything about it, since I don't really get it if it is intended to make a pejorative point.

But of course I do say somethinggrinning smiley. From the base of I have read here, there seems to be two typical and different claims thrown.

First is that it refers to production and Watt here - the results being so polished and probably 'over-worked/produced', unlike, say, in A BIGGER BANG or - jeez, this feels even stupid to write - EXILE. Probably anything produced along the contemporary values is 'pop' or 'Jagger solo' - these two typically go hand in hand - to some ears. The contemporary music world just sucks and the Stones are traitors by accepting it, and not going avantgarde or live in the last century (it might be a same thing).

Or then, it is something to do with the songs having so many melodic elements in them - hooks, catchy choruses, bridges - that it has been pretty rare in latter-day Stones records. Like it is a crime in a Stones recording to have some actual, well-written musical portions. Like Mick and Keith cannot be actually good song-writers knowing their craft. The Stones are not the Beatles, and Jagger/Richards not Lennon/McCartney (the poster boys of pop music), but if this idea is taken too seriously, lots of recorded Stones history will vanish and The Great Jagger/Richards Song Book will remain rather thin.

So put these two 'complaints' together, my conclusion that this being a pop album means that it is not MAIN OFFENDER or something.smoking smiley

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 17:22 by Doxa.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: October 24, 2023 17:20

I find Andrew Watt’s production to be popish and contemporary; most recordings are layered with a sort-of pop-sheen, to my ears, anyway. However, I don’t think Hackney Diamonds is a pop-record, per se. There are elements of pop, perhaps; just like there’s disco, country, blues, and rock. It’s an eclectic mix of styles and genres; just with a poppy, modern production. There’s nothing wrong with that - I like it, myself, personally - but I do understand what some here might dislike about it. Actually, most complainers seem to solely have a problem with the production. Sure, not everyone is going to like the songs, but it’s seemingly all about Andrew Watt

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 24, 2023 17:22

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Doxa

...So what history will teach us is that there might very well material there on the can that is quality-wise a dream come true to many fans.

But, but... Probably we could open a new thread for the speculations about the next album....grinning smiley

- Doxa

I'd be happy if it was all country stuff.

I've got visions of scores of great country tunes, discarded and littering the hard drives because "...we've got enough already ! "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 17:22 by Spud.

Stones to enter UK charts at #1…Outselling rest of top ten COMBINED
Posted by: James Kirk ()
Date: October 23, 2023 23:11

Stones crushing the charts in the UK…Outselling the rest of the top ten albums combined.

[www.officialcharts.com]

Re: Stones to enter UK charts at #1…Outselling rest of top ten COMBINED
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: October 24, 2023 00:00

This is AWESOME news!!!

Re: Stones to enter UK charts at #1…Outselling rest of top ten COMBINED
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: October 24, 2023 00:10

hot smiley smileys with beer
C'mon boys!!!

Re: Stones to enter UK charts at #1…Outselling rest of top ten COMBINED
Posted by: Woz ()
Date: October 24, 2023 00:57

Heart warming to see this reception in the year 2023! smiling smiley

Re: Stones to enter UK charts at #1…Outselling rest of top ten COMBINED
Posted by: James Kirk ()
Date: October 24, 2023 05:17

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Woz
Heart warming to see this reception in the year 2023! smiling smiley

It really is. It’s amazing. We will never see an act like this again.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 24, 2023 17:44

Thank you, Doxa, for somehow confirming my wonder about "pop album".

Yes, I read at least one poster missing an ingredient of dirt in the soundscape. And someone used, I think, it was a term "blanket", I believe as an objection. That about "blanket" I found rather interesting, because sometimes, during some moments, I had myself thought tentatively about a certain "veil", not as an objection, but maybe a description. I leave that as something for others to react against or, if possible, agree with.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Date: October 24, 2023 18:03

<Or then, it is something to do with the songs having so many melodic elements in them - hooks, catchy choruses, bridges - that it has been pretty rare in latter-day Stones records. Like it is a crime in a Stones recording to have some actual, well-written musical portions>

You hit the nail on the head there!

My main beef with the latter-day albums (VL, B2B and ABcool smiley has been the lack of good melodies. They are certainly back on HD. It doesn't necessarily make the songs more pop, though, just more interesting, imo.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: October 24, 2023 19:01

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Big Al
I find Andrew Watt’s production to be popish and contemporary

Blame my daughters, but I am quite exposed to contemporary pop music. Well I can hardly remember any guitar driven pop songs charting on spotyfy, forget songs with bum notes, a real drummer, etc etc,

C

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: Dorn ()
Date: October 24, 2023 19:42

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Doxa


Well, the pure country number "Dreamy Skies" was left out, but yeah, it is a breakaway song... one needs to have those... grinning smiley

- Doxa

i wish they had recorded a "pure country number"
this one surely ain´t it

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: October 24, 2023 19:51

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liddas
Quote
Big Al
I find Andrew Watt’s production to be popish and contemporary

Blame my daughters, but I am quite exposed to contemporary pop music. Well I can hardly remember any guitar driven pop songs charting on spotyfy, forget songs with bum notes, a real drummer, etc etc,

C

HD is very meaty, bouncy and punchy. For lack of a better word, the production sounds cartoonish and exaggerated. Not a criticism, just an opinion.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: goingmad ()
Date: October 24, 2023 19:57

I think that Hackney Diamonds it's mainly a Rock Album:

Angry
Get Close
Bite my head off
Whole wide world
Live by the sword
Driving me too hard

Also there are pop/rock ballads, soul, country and blues.

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: October 24, 2023 20:01

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DandelionPowderman

My main beef with the latter-day albums (VL, B2B and ABcool smiley has been the lack of good melodies. They are certainly back on HD. It doesn't necessarily make the songs more pop, though, just more interesting, imo.

Not only more interesting, but also more recognizable, more memorable, more begging for repeated listening. I guess that's the difference between "Driving Too Fast" and "Driving Me Too Hard" - I'd choose the latter any day...

In fact, unlike the latter-day albums you mentioned, for me there's not a single skipworthy track on HD, not one song that leaves me cold or indifferent and that alone is quite an achievement at this late stage in their career.

Of course, there's no surprise or "uncharted territory" material here either like "Heaven" or "Continental Drift", stuff you haven't heard from the Stones before. But I guess you simply don't do that after an 18 years-long absence of all-original new albums!

For the time being, I'm just happy that the band is back in form with an album that is entirely worth my precious listening time...

Re: Hackney Diamonds - Album Talk
Posted by: kowalski ()
Date: October 24, 2023 20:02

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NashvilleBlues
Quote
liddas
Quote
Big Al
I find Andrew Watt’s production to be popish and contemporary

Blame my daughters, but I am quite exposed to contemporary pop music. Well I can hardly remember any guitar driven pop songs charting on spotyfy, forget songs with bum notes, a real drummer, etc etc,

C

HD is very meaty, bouncy and punchy. For lack of a better word, the production sounds cartoonish and exaggerated. Not a criticism, just an opinion.

That's how sounded Iggy Pop's album produced by the same Watt. A surprisingly late career good album but definitely on the pop side (haha).

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