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Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: EJM ()
Date: July 11, 2023 15:32

Interestingly quite a lot in Rupert lowenstien autobiography “ Prince among stones” about Keith being quite shrewd about Stones finances ( perhaps not the boring day to day stuff )- I think he can’t be bothered unless necessary

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: July 11, 2023 16:07

If you've read Walter Yetnikoff's book HOWLING AT THE MOON, you get a picture of how Keith's wasted image was both a boon and a curse. Yetnikoff talks about Keith falling asleep during a meeting and Mick seeming pissed off at him. Suddenly, when Yetnikoff's hired guns started tough negotiations, Keith snaps into shape and joins Mick creating a united front. Keith stopped slurring and was articulate and focused and was in lock-step with Mick. That said, Velvel didn't much care for Keith (not the least because of his relationship with Sarah Dash). He wanted and promised Mick a huge solo career and couldn't deliver it. Jane Rose started working on rehabilitating Keith's public image following DIRTY WORK. The transition starts with the Aretha video and the Chuck Berry film. It settles into the Errol Flynn persona of The Laughing Rogue. Regardless of how much was reality, Keith was able to protect himself with personas whereas Mick is seen as transparent even if, in private, he tends to be soft-spoken and reserved.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: caschimann ()
Date: July 11, 2023 16:48

Quote
Big Al
Quote
dcba
Quote
GasLightStreet

It's absolute fantasy that you think Keith has zero to do with the Stones' finances.

I think Keith is totally clueless when it comes to basic daily things, and even more or so about managing the band™.

I remember reading a 99 interview where he said he gave a 50 quid tip to a London taxi driver and the person who was with him had to tell him it was too much.



Mick is the shield that protects Keef from the hardships of real life. Can you imagine our favourite guitarist putting together a tour? Me neither.

Keith is the consumate artist, but outside of his protective bubble he is like a fish out of water.

Isn't there a story about how Mick, when dining with someone at a restaurant, placed a few pounds down for waitresses tip, before slipping the tip back in his pocket when his companion's head was turned. grinning smiley


The story is from photographer David Bailey told in 1971 after Mick turned him down as main-photographer for the 72 US Tour giving the job (plus being director of the film later known as "@#$%& Blues") to Robert Frank...

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 11, 2023 18:56

Quote
DGA35
I remember back in 89 a Forbes magazine issue with Jagger/Richards on the cover and the headline What Will They Do With All That Money?
I also remember a quote from Bill Graham (paraphrasing): My lover is now a whore.

Keith had some very interesting things to say in that article. I have the issue but I don't know where it is.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 11, 2023 19:09

Quote
Rocky Dijon
If you've read Walter Yetnikoff's book HOWLING AT THE MOON, you get a picture of how Keith's wasted image was both a boon and a curse. Yetnikoff talks about Keith falling asleep during a meeting and Mick seeming pissed off at him. Suddenly, when Yetnikoff's hired guns started tough negotiations, Keith snaps into shape and joins Mick creating a united front. Keith stopped slurring and was articulate and focused and was in lock-step with Mick. That said, Velvel didn't much care for Keith (not the least because of his relationship with Sarah Dash). He wanted and promised Mick a huge solo career and couldn't deliver it. Jane Rose started working on rehabilitating Keith's public image following DIRTY WORK. The transition starts with the Aretha video and the Chuck Berry film. It settles into the Errol Flynn persona of The Laughing Rogue. Regardless of how much was reality, Keith was able to protect himself with personas whereas Mick is seen as transparent even if, in private, he tends to be soft-spoken and reserved.

Keith's two solo albums are mostly listenable. Mick's are mostly unlistenable.

Mick focused on himself. Keith just wanted to be free to play music.

Although Mick can say that the 1989 tour was only done for money you know damn well the second he heard the opening riff of Take It So Hard he knew that his PRIMITIVE COOL album should've been named GLACIAL FREEZE.

His spring tour set list gives it away: a revamp for the Stones 1989-90 tours.

Honky Tonk Women/Throwaway/Bitch/Let’s Spend The Night Together/
Lonely At The Top/Beast Of Burden/Tumbling Dice/Miss You/Ruby
Tuesday
/Just Another Night/War Baby/Lucky In Love/Harlem Shuffle/
Say You Will/Party Doll/Band introduction/You Can’t Always Get What
You Want
/Radio Control/Shoot Off Your Mouth/Gimme Shelter/Start Me
Up
/Brown Sugar/It’s Only Rock’n Roll/Jumpin' Jack Flash/Satisfaction/
Sympathy For The Devil

All that's missing is Paint It Black, Midnight Rambler, UOTN and various new songs.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: July 11, 2023 19:50

Quote
dcba
Quote
GasLightStreet

It's absolute fantasy that you think Keith has zero to do with the Stones' finances.

I think Keith is totally clueless when it comes to basic daily things, and even more or so about managing the band™.

I remember reading a 99 interview where he said he gave a 50 quid tip to a London taxi driver and the person who was with him had to tell him it was too much.

Mick is the shield that protects Keef from the hardships of real life. Can you imagine our favourite guitarist putting together a tour - I mean just finding venues and organizing an itinerary? Me neither.

Keith is the consumate artist, but outside of his protective bubble he is like a fish out of water.

Very few acts do this themselves. This is why booking agents exist. Some artists take a more hands on approach than others (I hate Duluth. How about the Forum instead of Staples Center)

Sounds like me and Keith aren't the only ones who have given tips that are too much.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Hound Dog ()
Date: July 11, 2023 20:48

Never heard anything about Mick wanting to do a tour behind Wandering Spirit, on an SNL interview he said he doing the next Stones album.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Jbeckerfan ()
Date: July 11, 2023 22:34

Quote
lem motlow
Quote
stevecardi

The chick didn’t even have enough sense to put a bespoke clause in his Yves st Laurent contract and he ended up wearing the same jacket onstage as Justin Bieber.

This is interesting. Did this come out after the fact behind the scenes? Was Jagger / Jane Rose angered that Saint Laurent hadn't informed her that they were using other artists to promote the jacket?

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: caschimann ()
Date: July 11, 2023 22:47

Keith's two solo albums are mostly listenable. Mick's are mostly unlistenable.

Mick focused on himself. Keith just wanted to be free to play music.

Totally Keith-camp-nonsense.
Keith albums are awful to 80%
Micks albums (instesd of. the 2cnd one)
sre pretty good.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: July 11, 2023 22:53

Quote
GasLightStreet

Keith's two solo albums are mostly listenable. Mick's are mostly unlistenable.

Mick focused on himself. Keith just wanted to be free to play music.

Valid opinion. thumbs up

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: July 11, 2023 22:57

A-ha, this thread turned out to be just another Mick vs. Keith dick contest. Nice.

- Doxa

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: July 11, 2023 23:00

Quote
Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

I never heard about that Wandering Spirit tour thing. Is this just an educated guess or are there actually some firm sources behind the claim?

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-07-11 23:01 by Doxa.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: July 11, 2023 23:18

Quote
Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

Sorry, but this is laughable. To say Keith is 'as important' in making the business decisions? Come on man, you cannot surely believe that?

Yes he has a say as a business partner, but this is the Mick show.

And as far as his solo tour not getting financed, I'd like to see where you get that info from. And even if that were the case, not selling a 'Mick tour' has got nothing to do with business savvy. No one wanted an MJ tour, they wanted the Stones tour. If you spend your entire life building a MASSIVE brand, and then hope to try to usurp it with your own personal brand...well let's just say that was a middle-aged crisis he went through and came out the other side.

The Rolling Stones business machine is the Mick show all the way with able assistance from many people including band members, which a good business leader would ensure.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: J-J-Flash ()
Date: July 11, 2023 23:39

Mick touring behind Wandering Spirit. No way. By June Stones were recording. Mick was on holiday in France most of March. Go look on Time is on our side it outlines pretty well what was going on during that time.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: caschimann ()
Date: July 11, 2023 23:51

Quote
Doxa
thumbs up
A-ha, this thread turned out to be just another Mick vs. Keith dick contest. Nice.

- Doxa




thumbs upthumbs up


(and its always: Keith the saint and Mick the selfish prick - sooo tired of this)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-07-13 14:51 by caschimann.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: July 12, 2023 00:09

Quote
Doxa
A-ha, this thread turned out to be just another Mick vs. Keith dick contest. Nice.

- Doxa

Thing is, Mick was getting too much praise in this thread, so Keith fans felt forced to step out to correct the picture. You simply can't say too much positive things about Mick without the usual backfiring from the "other side".

First and foremost, I'm a Stones fan. Can't understand this Mick vs. Keith thing. Who invented this schism? Jane, is it your Keith marketing strategy?

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: July 12, 2023 00:19

Mick hired Roger Davies as a consultant for PRMITIVE COOL just as he hired Q Prime as a consultant for STEEL WHEELS. Davies put together a package tour concept for Mick, Bowie, and Tina Turner along with 2 or 3 movie concepts for them to consider (ROCKET BOYS by Dale Launer where Mick and David would play rival club owners; the remake of BEDTIME STORY by Dale Launer which became DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS; and SUGAR, the musical version of SOME LIKE IT HOT which would have had Tina in Marilyn's dress and Mick & David in drag). The plan was all three artists would contribute songs to the soundtrack albums and then be able to mount another package tour. Had all of this happened, that's how Mick would have spent the rest of the 1980s into the 1990s. Whatever the real reason was, Mick never seemed too serious about the package tour concept.

By the Summer of 1987, Mick had Francesco Clemente designing a jungle stage backdrop for his planned solo world tour. Jeff Beck, G.E. Smith, and Soozie Tyrell were "set" for the tour. That last choice is surprising, but was very real. G.E. Smith was the first to balk as Lorne Michaels was holding his SNL slot for as long as possible which makes it obvious Mick was always on the fence about a solo tour of that magnitude. Somewhere between July and the album release in September, Mick delayed the tour. There were tentative dates with a start in Europe in September and hitting North America in mid-November with an SNL performance booked. We will likely never know the truth about what actually happened.

When Mick played The Country Club in L.A. with Beck and Terry Bozio in October, the talk of a tour was back on, though it was very tentative. Allegedly, it was January 1988 when it was finally decided that Beck wasn't touring with Mick.
Regardless, any real talk of a solo tour was off the table before the album even had a chance to hit stores. Despite all the flack Mick takes, 300K copies of PRIMITIVE COOL sold in the U.S. and a minor Top 40 hit would make Keith drool when you consider how his second solo studio effort fared a few years later.

As for WANDERING SPIRIT, when the URBAN JUNGLE tour ended, Mick and Keith both had meetings in 1990 with tentative plans for solo albums and tours. Keith did his, Mick didn't. Part of that may have been the Sony contract. While outside North America, Sony didn't make a big issue about the Virgin contract, the U.S. office did. Specifically, the Stones agreed to leave the CBS midline catalog titles in print longer than intended or face penalties in the contract Sony assumed from CBS in late 1989. This is why JUMP BACK was import-only in the States in 1993 and why Mick's album was moved from November 1992 to February 1993.

There was more speculation about the delay in WANDERING SPIRIT's release, but the contractual non-compete clause was very real. Part of what went wrong was also that Virgin used the superstar signings of Janet Jackson and the Stones to finance their new agreement with Capitol Records and left Atlantic Records behind. That meant Mick's back catalog and two album deal with Atlantic no longer shared distribution with the Stones' coming releases. This was corrected in 1999 or 2000 when Mick put the third Stones album for Virgin on hold to do GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY.

As for a tour for WANDERING SPIRIT, much like the possible tour for GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, it was discussed, but nothing much happened. Mick put together bands for both albums for showcase concerts and promotional appearances, but he never used them the way Keith did the Winos. The band for WANDERING SPIRIT (Chuck Leavell substituting for Billy Preston) was excellent. Having Stevie Salas on GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY would have improved the album as his all-too-brief time with Mick proved.

Had Mick toured more as a solo act, it might have been a detriment to the Stones. Not only in their willingness to work so much since STEEL WHEELS (mainly road work, of course), but also potentially having a negative impact on ticket sales. The Stones stayed special.

Sure you could see Mick being amazing at The Grammys with Raphael Saadiq backing him, but that was a one-off. Want to see that amazing front man? Go see The Stones. Mick limiting his solo career played it safe for the band's long-term future. Keith as a cult figure happy to sell 100,000 copies when he still could was no threat to the Stones. Mick as a solo artist who didn't tour (outside of 1988 in Japan and Down Under) kept the Stones special.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-07-12 00:26 by Rocky Dijon.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: July 12, 2023 02:07

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

I never heard about that Wandering Spirit tour thing. Is this just an educated guess or are there actually some firm sources behind the claim?

- Doxa

Considering the Voodoo Lounge recording and touring cycle was already on the calendar before Wandering Spirit came out, I also highly doubt it.

Also not sure where he gets "getting the tour financed" from as no Mick Jagger solo tour would require the expense and effort behind a Stones tour. Modest self or record company start ups against advances from promoters like any other arena tour of the time. I am sure Mick could have toured the US in 1988 if he wished though the sizes of venues and guarantees he would expect were probably quite different than promoters were willing to offer.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: July 12, 2023 09:40

Quote
Dan
I am sure Mick could have toured the US in 1988 if he wished though the sizes of venues and guarantees he would expect were probably quite different than promoters were willing to offer.

Another possibility is he did not play that card because he knew the future for him was a reconciliation with Keef.
How could that happen if he dried the American gig market by touring there?

Playing minor markets like Jakarta or Perth was OK but New York or L.A. was like crossing the Rubicon.
Said differently : in 86 Mick and Keef hated each other. In 88 they had realized they could not live without the other one.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: July 12, 2023 16:53

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Mick hired Roger Davies as a consultant for PRMITIVE COOL just as he hired Q Prime as a consultant for STEEL WHEELS. Davies put together a package tour concept for Mick, Bowie, and Tina Turner along with 2 or 3 movie concepts for them to consider (ROCKET BOYS by Dale Launer where Mick and David would play rival club owners; the remake of BEDTIME STORY by Dale Launer which became DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS; and SUGAR, the musical version of SOME LIKE IT HOT which would have had Tina in Marilyn's dress and Mick & David in drag). The plan was all three artists would contribute songs to the soundtrack albums and then be able to mount another package tour. Had all of this happened, that's how Mick would have spent the rest of the 1980s into the 1990s. Whatever the real reason was, Mick never seemed too serious about the package tour concept.

By the Summer of 1987, Mick had Francesco Clemente designing a jungle stage backdrop for his planned solo world tour. Jeff Beck, G.E. Smith, and Soozie Tyrell were "set" for the tour. That last choice is surprising, but was very real. G.E. Smith was the first to balk as Lorne Michaels was holding his SNL slot for as long as possible which makes it obvious Mick was always on the fence about a solo tour of that magnitude. Somewhere between July and the album release in September, Mick delayed the tour. There were tentative dates with a start in Europe in September and hitting North America in mid-November with an SNL performance booked. We will likely never know the truth about what actually happened.

When Mick played The Country Club in L.A. with Beck and Terry Bozio in October, the talk of a tour was back on, though it was very tentative. Allegedly, it was January 1988 when it was finally decided that Beck wasn't touring with Mick.
Regardless, any real talk of a solo tour was off the table before the album even had a chance to hit stores. Despite all the flack Mick takes, 300K copies of PRIMITIVE COOL sold in the U.S. and a minor Top 40 hit would make Keith drool when you consider how his second solo studio effort fared a few years later.

As for WANDERING SPIRIT, when the URBAN JUNGLE tour ended, Mick and Keith both had meetings in 1990 with tentative plans for solo albums and tours. Keith did his, Mick didn't. Part of that may have been the Sony contract. While outside North America, Sony didn't make a big issue about the Virgin contract, the U.S. office did. Specifically, the Stones agreed to leave the CBS midline catalog titles in print longer than intended or face penalties in the contract Sony assumed from CBS in late 1989. This is why JUMP BACK was import-only in the States in 1993 and why Mick's album was moved from November 1992 to February 1993.

There was more speculation about the delay in WANDERING SPIRIT's release, but the contractual non-compete clause was very real. Part of what went wrong was also that Virgin used the superstar signings of Janet Jackson and the Stones to finance their new agreement with Capitol Records and left Atlantic Records behind. That meant Mick's back catalog and two album deal with Atlantic no longer shared distribution with the Stones' coming releases. This was corrected in 1999 or 2000 when Mick put the third Stones album for Virgin on hold to do GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY.

As for a tour for WANDERING SPIRIT, much like the possible tour for GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, it was discussed, but nothing much happened. Mick put together bands for both albums for showcase concerts and promotional appearances, but he never used them the way Keith did the Winos. The band for WANDERING SPIRIT (Chuck Leavell substituting for Billy Preston) was excellent. Having Stevie Salas on GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY would have improved the album as his all-too-brief time with Mick proved.

Had Mick toured more as a solo act, it might have been a detriment to the Stones. Not only in their willingness to work so much since STEEL WHEELS (mainly road work, of course), but also potentially having a negative impact on ticket sales. The Stones stayed special.

Sure you could see Mick being amazing at The Grammys with Raphael Saadiq backing him, but that was a one-off. Want to see that amazing front man? Go see The Stones. Mick limiting his solo career played it safe for the band's long-term future. Keith as a cult figure happy to sell 100,000 copies when he still could was no threat to the Stones. Mick as a solo artist who didn't tour (outside of 1988 in Japan and Down Under) kept the Stones special.

Fabulous information...this is what makes it worthwhile coming here again and again. Thank you Rocky.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: J-J-Flash ()
Date: July 12, 2023 17:04

Some people here think they know it all and simply make up things. Simple as that

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Date: July 12, 2023 17:24

Quote
J-J-Flash
Some people here know a lot and simply share things. Simple as that

Fixed it for you smiling smiley

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: July 13, 2023 07:20

Quote
J-J-Flash
Some people here think they know it all and simply make up things. Simple as that

I don't think there's anything I wrote that wasn't found in Bill German's Beggars Banquet or Connection apart from some of the business info that was published in ICE. Next time I'll list footnotes so you don't get all pissy.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: July 13, 2023 09:09

GO Bill ....... dont let 'em get ya .......



ROCKMAN

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 13, 2023 13:31

Quote
Dan
Said differently : in 86 Mick and Keef hated each other. In 88 they had realized they could not live without the other one.

Hate is not what was the case. It was merely two "childish" (spoiled?) adults, who were p*ssed off by eachother and used the media to release their emotions.

It can happen to all of us. "Hate" rips things apart, being "p*ssed off has plenty of space to reconsider ones emotions. And that's what Mick and Keith did (and from time to time still do cool smiley)

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 13, 2023 16:45

Quote
Dan
Quote
Doxa
Quote
Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

I never heard about that Wandering Spirit tour thing. Is this just an educated guess or are there actually some firm sources behind the claim?

- Doxa

Considering the Voodoo Lounge recording and touring cycle was already on the calendar before Wandering Spirit came out, I also highly doubt it.

Also not sure where he gets "getting the tour financed" from as no Mick Jagger solo tour would require the expense and effort behind a Stones tour. Modest self or record company start ups against advances from promoters like any other arena tour of the time. I am sure Mick could have toured the US in 1988 if he wished though the sizes of venues and guarantees he would expect were probably quite different than promoters were willing to offer.

Ask Jimmy Rip. Jagger really was planning on touring behind Wandering Spirit, he had the band ready, but he was not supported by the record company. Jagger's 1988 tour wasn't a financial success, and whereas Jagger wanted to tour the big stadiums, the record company felt he only could do a much smaller arena tour like Keith did. Jagger wanted to be Michael Jackson and Madonna, but he just couldn't fill the same stadiums with his own band. In the end he basically dropped the idea and started working on what would become Voodoo Lounge.

Mathijs

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: caschimann ()
Date: July 13, 2023 17:14

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Dan
Quote
Doxa
Quote
Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

I never heard about that Wandering Spirit tour thing. Is this just an educated guess or are there actually some firm sources behind the claim?

- Doxa

Considering the Voodoo Lounge recording and touring cycle was already on the calendar before Wandering Spirit came out, I also highly doubt it.

Also not sure where he gets "getting the tour financed" from as no Mick Jagger solo tour would require the expense and effort behind a Stones tour. Modest self or record company start ups against advances from promoters like any other arena tour of the time. I am sure Mick could have toured the US in 1988 if he wished though the sizes of venues and guarantees he would expect were probably quite different than promoters were willing to offer.

Ask Jimmy Rip. Jagger really was planning on touring behind Wandering Spirit, he had the band ready, but he was not supported by the record company. Jagger's 1988 tour wasn't a financial success, and whereas Jagger wanted to tour the big stadiums, the record company felt he only could do a much smaller arena tour like Keith did. Jagger wanted to be Michael Jackson and Madonna, but he just couldn't fill the same stadiums with his own band. In the end he basically dropped the idea and started working on what would become Voodoo Lounge.

Mathijs

When I see a post talking about "Jagger" all the times I stop reading it. Its out of this world talking about Mick like he is a stranger or some CEO from some corporation. Can't stand this "Jagger"-nonsense anymore. Do you guys think you sound very cool talking like this? Unbelievable.
No one ever talked here about Watts, or Wood, or Wyman, or Richards all the time.
Never.
But again again we have the "Jagger"-talkers here.

I will skip the Keith as long this lasts here.
Going like:
Richards has birthday 2morrow.
Richards has a new guitar.
Richards was seen in NY.
The solo Richards did in Hang Fire was great.
I saw Richards and his wife in the Hamptons.

How weird does this sound!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-07-13 17:22 by caschimann.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: July 13, 2023 17:33

Quote
Mathijs

Ask Jimmy Rip. Jagger really was planning on touring behind Wandering Spirit, he had the band ready, but he was not supported by the record company. Jagger's 1988 tour wasn't a financial success, and whereas Jagger wanted to tour the big stadiums, the record company felt he only could do a much smaller arena tour like Keith did. Jagger wanted to be Michael Jackson and Madonna, but he just couldn't fill the same stadiums with his own band. In the end he basically dropped the idea and started working on what would become Voodoo Lounge.

Mathijs

Atlantic paid for the PPV showcase from Webster Hall, but record companies rarely have tour support apart from promoting back catalog and in-store signings with shows (something The Stones or Mick solo didn't do). Think about Stones tours. You didn't see Atlantic, EMI, CBS, Virgin, Polydor, or Interscope with their names among the sponsors. The actual tour support from labels is a relatively small marketing budget. As for Mick solo, both 1988 tours were major successes in their respective countries.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: July 13, 2023 17:39

Quote
caschimann
When I see a post talking about "Jagger" all the times I stop reading it. Its out of this world talking about Mick like he is a stranger or some CEO from some corporation. Can't stand this "Jagger"-nonsense anymore. Do you guys think you sound very cool talking like this? Unbelievable.
No one ever talked here about Watts, or Wood, or Wyman, or Richards all the time.
Never.

I understand your point, but there were two Micks in the band (possibly twice if you count Mick Avory). Really, they are strangers. They don't know us (okay, they know Bjornulf and Matt Lee, but not most of us). We should really show respect and refer to them as Mr. Jagger and Mr. Richards. I'm afraid we just weren't raised to show proper respect. After all, "Mr. Jagger" is what gives Melvin Belli one of the few funny moments in GIMME SHELTER.

Re: Bill Graham losing 1989 Steel Wheels Tour
Posted by: stevecardi ()
Date: July 13, 2023 20:06

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Mathijs
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Dan
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Doxa
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Mathijs
I think the emphasis on how great Mick is as a businessman is hugely overblown. For the Stones the market is huge, there's only a few promotors that can do these big tours, so negotiating a good deal isn't all that difficult. Mick found out himself that a sell-to market is more important than being a good businessman -he wasn't able to get his solo 1988 Euro or US tour financed, he wasn't able to tour after Wandering Spirit because he couldn't get it financed.

And for Keith: he is equally important to Mick in making decisions. He is not the drugged-out bozo and never was. All decisions concerning the business aspects of the Stones are taken by Mick and Keith, and to some extent Charlie.

Mathijs

I never heard about that Wandering Spirit tour thing. Is this just an educated guess or are there actually some firm sources behind the claim?

- Doxa

Considering the Voodoo Lounge recording and touring cycle was already on the calendar before Wandering Spirit came out, I also highly doubt it.

Also not sure where he gets "getting the tour financed" from as no Mick Jagger solo tour would require the expense and effort behind a Stones tour. Modest self or record company start ups against advances from promoters like any other arena tour of the time. I am sure Mick could have toured the US in 1988 if he wished though the sizes of venues and guarantees he would expect were probably quite different than promoters were willing to offer.

Ask Jimmy Rip. Jagger really was planning on touring behind Wandering Spirit, he had the band ready, but he was not supported by the record company. Jagger's 1988 tour wasn't a financial success, and whereas Jagger wanted to tour the big stadiums, the record company felt he only could do a much smaller arena tour like Keith did. Jagger wanted to be Michael Jackson and Madonna, but he just couldn't fill the same stadiums with his own band. In the end he basically dropped the idea and started working on what would become Voodoo Lounge.

Mathijs


Which is ironic, because in the 1980s Michael Jackson and Madonna (and Bruce) were mostly arena dwellers here in the U.S., with a some stadium shows thrown in. As big as Michael Jackson was with Thriller, it took him a reunion with the Jackson 5 to do a full fledged stadium-only tour, and that tour was so poorly promoted, managed and sponsored that it ended up losing money despite selling out some big places. At least here in the US, I find it hard Mick on his own could have done huge stadium shows with his own bad.

Furthermore, Keith two solo tours were mostly small theatres with a few arenas thrown in. (As said about the two Winos tours: “we made money on most nights, and we broke even on the others.”)

Look at it like this way: Mick wanted to outdo the three biggest stars at the time on the touring scene: Michael Jackson, Madonna and Bruce. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Competition is a very important element to success and growth.

But if those three stars—the biggest music stars on the planet at the time—couldn’t do a stadium-only tour in the US by themselves, neither could Mick by himself.

For that, he would need the Stones.

And that’s just want happened a year later, when we got blessed with the Steel Wheels album and tour. As I said, even Michael Jackson was shocked at how much bigger and more financially successful the Steel Wheels tour was compared to his own Bad tour and the Victory reunion tour with the Jackson 5.

The Rolling Stones drowned Michael Jackson on the road at the height of his popularity in the 1980s.

Think about that for a minute!

That’s what I mean by staying the Steel Wheels tour was some next level stuff.

And there is no way Bill Graham could have gotten that too happen.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2023-07-13 22:36 by stevecardi.

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