Very interesting article! I didn't know about him.
Thank you for posting it harleybla!

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Irix

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georgie48

The 100% clear distinction of both the eyes and stripe(s) on John Pasche's design(s) are highly distinctive and absolutely unique.

But both designs (A. Aldridge and J. Pasche) are very, very similar in shape & geometry. Compare it here - [iorr.org] . You can of course believe in coincidences if you like.

Mystery solved! This is from a Vanity Fair interview with Craig Braun:

I said, “Marshall, have you seen a sketch or anything?” He said, “Well, you know, the guy is just doing black-and-white artwork. It’s not finished. But I did get a stamp.” So he sends this thing and it’s the overall shape of [the Stones logo], the lips, and then I can see this bulbous tongue, but it’s like a squashed-out image. So when I saw it, I said, “Marshall, this is not helping me at all.” But then I remembered getting a book in London from a guy named Alan Aldridge. He was an illustrator and he did a book called [The Beatles Illustrated Lyrics]. And I remember this one illustration for “Day Tripper,” and it was a girl, this cute little blond girl, and she was eating a lollipop or a popsicle. And she had her huge tongue out and the lip outline. That was like magic for me. I said, We can do it now. So I got my guy down, the illustrator guy, Walter Velez was his name. We combined the two in a salad, like a design salad. So I went through maybe six different iterations of that logo.

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blivet

Mystery solved!

It describes how the T&L logo was redrawn by Craig Braun's company, early 1971 in New York City. But it does not explain why the logo by John Pasche (created in 1970 in London, UK) has a very similar shape & geometry compared to Alan Aldridge's illustration (1969).

This IMO, is one of the most incredible examples of, well, I'm not sure what. It's not Mandela effect, because the pics are right there. Almost like a conspiracy of people being paid to testify that, "Keep moving,there's nothing to see here."

The tongue isn't "inspired by" or "similar to" or any of that; it's as if Pasche took a pencil and a piece of tracing paper to the Aldridge design and then added a few touches (teeth, eyes white lines). I really feel bad for Ernie, who's a very groovy cat, but is locked into this now ancient legend and has to keep going with it to the grave. Pasche too, seems like a decent fellow, but this isn't like Mannish Boy/Jean Genie. There are a bunch of pics out there with tongues and lips, going way back, but this is a cover version at best. If the Aldridge family brought it to court, no jury in the world wouldn't agree. Even Johnnie Cochran wouldn't be able to help with this one.

It seems to me that the Stones were still worried about the "copying the Beatles" thing, and must have paid Aldridge to keep quiet. Chess, Braun, Cefalu and Pasche then colluded in creating this intentionally murky, "he said, he said" story to cover up the obvious. Much like art thieves starting a fire in another part of town to throw off the scent and occupy the police, while the Van Gogh's go out the back door.

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Irix

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blivet

Mystery solved!

It describes how the T&L logo was redrawn by Craig Braun's company, early 1971 in New York City. But it does not explain why the logo by John Pasche (created in 1970 in London, UK) has a very similar shape & geometry compared to Alan Aldridge's illustration (1969).

It was reverse engineered by Braun using Ernie simply for business reasons. Neither Ernie nor Pasche give a crap about which came first as neither saw each other’s designs. Mick Jagger and Marshall Chess made the decision, and Chess was there when he asked Braun to do it. Braun had seen Pasche’s work. Google reverse engineering…

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shawnriffhard1
This IMO, is one of the most incredible examples of, well, I'm not sure what. It's not Mandela effect, because the pics are right there. Almost like a conspiracy of people being paid to testify that, "Keep moving,there's nothing to see here."

The tongue isn't "inspired by" or "similar to" or any of that; it's as if Pasche took a pencil and a piece of tracing paper to the Aldridge design and then added a few touches (teeth, eyes white lines). I really feel bad for Ernie, who's a very groovy cat, but is locked into this now ancient legend and has to keep going with it to the grave. Pasche too, seems like a decent fellow, but this isn't like Mannish Boy/Jean Genie. There are a bunch of pics out there with tongues and lips, going way back, but this is a cover version at best. If the Aldridge family brought it to court, no jury in the world wouldn't agree. Even Johnnie Cochran wouldn't be able to help with this one.

It seems to me that the Stones were still worried about the "copying the Beatles" thing, and must have paid Aldridge to keep quiet. Chess, Braun, Cefalu and Pasche then colluded in creating this intentionally murky, "he said, he said" story to cover up the obvious. Much like art thieves starting a fire in another part of town to throw off the scent and occupy the police, while the Van Gogh's go out the back door.

You know the phrase, "follow the money"?

You've strayed so far away from that it's ridiculous.

You sound like... ha ha ha ha not gonna say it.

Obviously you believe what you believe, like those that can't afford ABC but certainly can afford 123, but Mick has been clear for eons. The Aldridge tongue certainly does look like they ripped it off.

However, you, and others, have no true idea if Mick saw that at the time. The Stones never "copied" The Beatles. If anything they mocked them.

Not always in a great way, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-18 07:16 by GasLightStreet.

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roller99

It was reverse engineered by Braun using Ernie simply for business reasons.

They used John Pasche's version. Craig Braun said that "a rough one-inch version [was] faxed over from London by Marshall Chess" - [iorr.org] . See also here - [iorr.org] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-18 15:20 by Irix.

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Irix

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roller99

It was reverse engineered by Braun using Ernie simply for business reasons.

They used John Pasche's version. Craig Braun said that "a rough one-inch version [was] faxed over from London by Marshall Chess" - [iorr.org] .

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Braun used Cefalu to reverse engineer it. Cefalu was an unwitting participant, and Braun was able to pull it off by combining some lips Cefalu had done for some broadway show. I still don’t get this debate, years later. I spoke with Chess, Braun, and Pasche, everyone agrees.

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roller99

Braun used Cefalu to reverse engineer it. Cefalu was an unwitting participant, and Braun was able to pull it off by combining some lips Cefalu had done for some broadway show.

Craig Braun's in-house illustrators Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli had redrawn it - [iorr.org]. And John Pasche's rubber stamp logo (Rolling Stones Records letterheads) was done before Craig Braun & Ernie Cefalu.

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Irix

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roller99

Braun used Cefalu to reverse engineer it. Cefalu was an unwitting participant, and Braun was able to pull it off by combining some lips Cefalu had done for some broadway show.

Craig Braun's in-house illustrators Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli had redrawn it - [iorr.org]. And John Pasche's rubber stamp logo (Rolling Stones Records letterheads) was done before Craig Braun & Ernie Cefalu.

Nope, not true. You speak as though you were there, and it’s just something you read. I have spoken to most of the people involved. Craig Braun and Cefalu parted enemies, so he changed the story. There are others who worked there that corroborate this. Cefalu has done over 250 album cob]vers, but he made this story up? Do you realize how improbable that is? Even Shep Gordon has gone to bat over this. He’s a liar too?

You need to get the full story, not just parrot something you read.

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roller99

You need to get the full story, not just parrot something you read.

Since you're a journalist, you could write the true full story ('court proof'). Would be interesting.

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Irix

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roller99

You need to get the full story, not just parrot something you read.

Since you're a journalist, you could write the true full story ('court proof'). Would be interesting.

I did. It's pretty much what you say. Ernie is a very close friend, and even I know that Pasche created the first logo. My only point is that Braun manipulated him so he could create a second logo without Cefalu knowing what he had done. So in his mind, he created the logo. Not sure what you mean by "court proof", but it doesn't matter. The whole thing has been argued about for years, and in the end, it IS Pasche who did it first. Even Jagger has talked about it, so there's no argument here.

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Irix

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blivet

Mystery solved!

It describes how the T&L logo was redrawn by Craig Braun's company, early 1971 in New York City. But it does not explain why the logo by John Pasche (created in 1970 in London, UK) has a very similar shape & geometry compared to Alan Aldridge's illustration (1969).

OK, but at least we now have Braun explicitly stating in so many words that his version of the logo was copied from Aldridge's illustration. Before that all we had was the maddening similarity.

Personally I don't think Pasche's version is all that similar to Aldridge's, but I guess it's possible that Pasche took inspiration from the "Day Tripper" illustration, and told Braun so when Braun was tying to put together the album package without having Pasche's artwork directly available. Braun's version really does seem like a copy of Aldridge's illustration done in the style of Pasche's design.

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roller99

I did. It's pretty much what you say.

Where can we read (and compare) your full story?

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blivet

I guess it's possible that Pasche took inspiration from the "Day Tripper" illustration, and told Braun so when Braun was tying to put together the album package without having Pasche's artwork directly available.

Seems to be possible.

The best would be if Bill Wyman could find in his RS archive a very early letter from Rolling Stones Records with a date before 1971 and the rubber stamp logo on it.

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Irix

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roller99

I did. It's pretty much what you say.

Where can we read (and compare) your full story?

[www.goldminemag.com][/url]

I just realized that the wrong letter from Shep is in there, but it's pretty much what I said here, with pictures.

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roller99

[www.goldminemag.com]

Thanks for posting.

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Irix

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roller99

[www.goldminemag.com]

Thanks for posting.

My pleasure Irix. I actually have the letter that The RS sent to John Pasche via Jo Bergman, but I don't know how to post images here. Just clarifies that Pasche did it first.

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roller99

I actually have the letter that The RS sent to John Pasche via Jo Bergman

It's (among others) here - [iorr.org] .

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Irix

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blivet

I guess it's possible that Pasche took inspiration from the "Day Tripper" illustration, and told Braun so when Braun was tying to put together the album package without having Pasche's artwork directly available.

Seems to be possible.

The best would be if Bill Wyman could find in his RS archive a very early letter from Rolling Stones Records with a date before 1971 and the rubber stamp logo on it.

I've seen a copy of that letterhead. I think someone even posted it on this board. Maybe it's in the really long thread about the origins of the logo that's been linked to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-19 00:19 by blivet.

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blivet

I've seen a copy of that letterhead. I think someone even posted it on this board.

It's here - [iorr.org] . But this letterhead from Rolling Stones Records has no date on it.

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Irix

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blivet

I've seen a copy of that letterhead. I think someone even posted it on this board.

It's here - [iorr.org] . But this letterhead from Rolling Stones Records has no date on it.

I see what you mean. Still, looking at the logo on the letterhead, it's easy to imagine Braun having an "aha" moment when he compared his fax image of it and the Aldridge illustration.

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blivet

it's easy to imagine Braun having an "aha" moment when he compared his fax image of it and the Aldridge illustration

Would be interesting to know if John Pasche had such an "aha" moment in 1970 too.