Maybe someone wrote it before, if so, i'm sorry but:

if i listen to the boots, for example the latest Dead Flowers (philadelphia maybe), there's something i don't understand. During the verse ronnie plays of course with some mistakes, but he plays fast, quite exciting licks, technically more difficult stuff. Then, when it comes to the solo: he's out, plays only non-sense, shit. So the argument, he is not able to play is wrong: just listen to the verse-part. Maybe he is shy, he feels pressure when 50 000 people are watching him and listening mainly to his lines. Of course he knows, he's not anymore the RW of the '70-s, maybe that causes his fears. It's just an easy theory, maybe I'm not right, but there is a f***ing huge gap between his background-playing and soloing. What do you think, what's the reason behind it?

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Yeah that makes a lot of sense to me. Also if he is sober maybe he cannot cope with the butterflies of being on stage as well? He has always been a shy player. Mick yells to Ron.. "Play to the people!" on FF. And he wasn't sober then. There is nothing wrong with his playing on ABB

gaigai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe someone wrote it before, if so, i'm sorry
> but:
>
> if i listen to the boots, for example the latest
> Dead Flowers (philadelphia maybe), there's
> something i don't understand. During the verse
> ronnie plays of course with some mistakes, but he
> plays fast, quite exciting licks, technically more
> difficult stuff. Then, when it comes to the solo:
> he's out, plays only non-sense, shit. So the
> argument, he is not able to play is wrong: just
> listen to the verse-part. Maybe he is shy, he
> feels pressure when 50 000 people are watching him
> and listening mainly to his lines. Of course he
> knows, he's not anymore the RW of the '70-s, maybe
> that causes his fears. It's just an easy theory,
> maybe I'm not right, but there is a f***ing huge
> gap between his background-playing and soloing.
> What do you think, what's the reason behind it?

I don't know, gaigai, I've been asking this myself numerous times. After 30 years playing with the Stones, playing with the Faces before, playing to large audiences all the time, I doubt that he feels pressure when 50.000 people are watching him.

Anyway, once again this Ronnie discussion is taken to the extremes. Bjornulf does not want to be counted "in this stupid guitar expert club". I can only speak for myself, but I do not expect a guitar to be played according to the book, at least not when I listen to the Stones. In fact, I always hated these guitar heroes like Van Halen, Malmsteen and numerous other who are able to play 1000 notes in one second absolutely faultlessly - guitar wanking, of course - but who miss the one important thing, regardless if you play a one note solo or a 1000 notes solo: F-E-E-L-I-N-G. So watching Muddy Waters doing a one-note slide solo for 20 seconds always excited me more than those "perfect" and technically complicated guitar solo stuff. The Stones always had bum notes, during the Brian Jones era, even during the Mick taylor era (probably a bit less) and of course during the Ronnie era. I don't count bum notes. It's the feeling that matters. And listening to Ronnie these days, it's my feeling that his feeling is gone, at least to a certain degree. It's not his bum notes, mind you, they did not bother me in 1975 or 1975 or 1978 or 1981 or 1982 or..., it's more or less that he oftens sounds like he is not really into it, fuddling around on the fretboard, seeking the right notes, losing the motive amidst the solo, whatever. You mentioned Dead Flowers. But there are other songs like Tumbling Dice which he played a zillion times and should be comfortable with like riding bycicle, regardless if there are 50.000 people in front of him or not. He often sounds uncomfortable with songs he played so many times before. It's the feeling, not bum notes or sheer perfection. And the feeling has to do with the music, not with the spectacle surrounding it. I have had this spectacle countless times on many tours since 1972, but I have also had - despite bum notes here and there - music that sent shivers down my spine. By now, I feel that the spectacle is taking over from the music.

What is it? Maybe Ronnie is just more lazy than the others, feeling that he has nothing to prove anymore. I remember when the Beatles stopped touring (in 1966) they said that live performances just did not excite them anymore. Screaming girls everywhere, louder than the music anyway, no matter what they played. Just going on stage was enough to guarantee hysteria. Who cared about what was actually played? "We could play a set of waltzes and audiences would still get crazy - this destroyed us as a live band" - can't remember who said this - either John, Paul, George or Ringo. I also remember a Jagger quote when he mentioned that in 1969 the scene was totally different: "No more hysteria, better sound systems, people could actually hear what we were playing. They sat down and listened. It was a real challenge for us". And so they were forced to play and prove something. And, hell, they did.

Maybe Ronnie feels like the Beatles in 1966 by now. Maybe he's just lazy. Going out on stage, having fun, people will go crazy as long as there are enough warhorses in the set. "Why should I WORK hard ? Let's just have fun. People will dig it anyway." Just a suggestion.






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-20 12:13 by retired_dog.

thank you, ChrisM; yeah i feel we have some good mutual respect, which is why i feel i can try to talk about this with you.

>> I take no pleasure in criticising Ronnie, and when I do so it is not out of any desire to be 'hip' or fashionable. <<

like i said before: i don't mean i suspect you of being that kind of "erzatz connoisseur" - i'm talking about a general phenomenon:
people who don't have your insight feeling it's safer to find fault with Ronnie than to appreciate what he's contributing.
you feel compelled to comment when you perceive something going wrong - okay!
but at the same time, there are other things one might feel compelled to comment on:
the beautiful support Mick gets on BOMH - the lovely delicate pedal steel on The Worst -
who's that driving She's So Cold - my but that was a freakin beautiful Out of Control! - and on and on.
is the idea "why comment on what's going well?" i don't quite get that.
as a guitarist you know what it's like to play on stage with a band in front of tens of thousands of people -
everything careening headlong, play that line, work that crowd, where's my cohort, what's with my monitor, why is he coming in now, whoa nelly, it's only rock & roll -
and in so many ways Ronnie's got the hardest gig of all. is it harder these days, for a variety of reasons? yeah, i reckon so.
is the fault-finding going to alleviate that? i doubt it. or as Bjornulf put it: what's Plan B?


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

The fact is there for some, i have to find out myself ,but you have to enyoy the show and one can get drunk, high or whatever!!The main point for me is that i am so right down happy if i m seeing them again(real happy)Iremember keith makin a messs out of b s in aMSTerdam 2003,well ihave to tell you i was stoned still heared it but it was so hilirious!!!i had fun, mistakes belongs to the stones and its big fun for me!later inthat show during jjf ithink the cannon with the red snow didnt go off and i tell you men, it was so funny,this show was for the hard core die hards a bad one1!!!!me myself had a hell of a time and real interaction with keith ,mick was on fire,i do have to ad mitt that i was way out stoned, bu tttt i wont dig pink floyd or queen never ever so one can party down all right

"I come not to bury Ronnie..." Ms Sssoul, your meaning is well taken and I do suppose there is an element that bashes Ronnie for the sake of doing so or to "join the crowd" as the saying goes. As I said, I take no joy in pointing out Ronnies playing deficiencies. It is only out of concern that I do so.

And I feel very strongly that I must point out that I certainly don't equate Ronnie's worth as a human being based on his guitaring or expect to tell others how they should think and feel about this, OK Bjornulf?

Those who think Ronnie is playing well or caught him on a goodnight, that's great, I'm glad you did. Ronnie is but one element in the overall Stones concert experience, a part of whole, and despite his sub par guitar playing I had a great time and enjoyed myself at the SF shows, as I attested to before. Do I have a plan B? No, and I never claimed to. That I leave to the band...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-21 03:08 by ChrisM.

with sssoul Wrote:
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> and in so many ways Ronnie's got the hardest gig
> of all.

There's some truth to this. Despite his crowd-pleasing antics, he seems still not to get the fan-favorite props that keith and charlie share. If he were still a solid player, he could adopt an "Old Reliable" persona, filling in for keith's slips, but that's not what happens. And since he doesn't have keith's assets - an instantly recognizable sound and a much-imitated style - it's harder for him to define what he's doing up there. Especially if it's the spotlight moments when he has the most trouble.

I listened to the '90 show torrented recently on dimeadozen, and his solo on "Start Me Up" begins with essentially the same cartoon bend, but he works out of it into a nice melodic lick that I haven't heard anything similar to this tour.

cc

yeah, i feel concerned for Ronnie too - how can one not,
watching him gallantly navigating all kinds of lord-knows-what for 30 years for the sake of the music -
i do dearly love what that boy brings to the plate, including what he's brought to keeping that band together.
if he's going through some kind of rough spell ... bless his face, i sure hope all is well with him and for him.
thanks & praises, Ronnie!

Ronnie's artwork is great : he would have made a better cover for ABB !!!

Tim Ries' Rolling Stones Project cover is Ronnies work, am I right? Far better then ABB cover.