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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-07-15 03:07 by Jed Clever.

Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I decided a while back that I won't pay any more than $25 (well maybe $50) to see them at this stage of the game. Plus I'd have to be pretty drunk to sit through this shite. I prefer to savor the memories of past (better) tours. My ears are simply too keen for this current butchery. Jagger is the only one who holds any of it together anymore. The rest of them are on complete autopilot or totally incompetant. Current live recordings of this tour that I've heard all pretty much sound like a really bad bar band. Of course if you don't know any better you'll think it's great!

I have only been to three shows, but Ronnie has been sloppy at all 3. I thought that Keith was great at MCI Center, OK at Anaheim and SF1

I'm shure after the tour something will happen. Either no tour anymore,may be thats why they kept Ronnie, or they throw him out afterwards and do kinda different live gigs..club shows etc. with different guitar player. I have no idea how Mick is not freakin' out almost every night about Ronnies playing since he has to live with keiths "mistakes" already.

Would like to hear a boot of either SF shows - I attended SF1 and have read comments about SF2. At SF1 there were times that the mix on the guitars was fuzzy - and seated in the first level to the left of the stage it was difficult to hear any distinction (at times) between KR & RW. Rough Justice, on the B stage was very flat sounding.....anyone heard boots of these shows? (also, has anyone seen these up on the dime? for bittorrent downloading - if so please advise.

Jed:

I share your pain - some of my comments regarding Woody in SF are buried in other threads here. I still love these gusy, but if this were the first time I'd heard them, it would sure be the last.

jed clever wrote:

>Ron played a solo on an electric garbage disposal with a spoon stuck in it. I couldn’t help but cringe


i know exactly what u mean. he's bringing down the level of what could be a phenominal show to a very good show.keith is on or off. and his posing drives me nuts.

your descriptions of ronnie's playing are f-ing hillarious, but sad he got to this.

forgot to mention how good Jagger sounded - probably the best vocals that I have heard live from him - and have seen the Stones in 75, 81, 97 and most recently SF1 in 05.....

The reviews of Stones fans who attended the shows confirm my impressions from the boots. Ronnies guitar work is lousy all over. In my opinion they should cancel the European leg of the tour until Ronnie is well again, or they should replace him by a new guitar player. If you do your job in the same manner as Ronnie does for the moment, you would be kicked off. I ever loved the guitar work of Ronnie, his contributions to the band history, he was a great guitar player in the seventies till the midst of the nineties, but now we have 2005. I never mind interesting sloppy guitar work, but Ronnies work is boring and a series of nonsense and he's playing many wrong notes during a show. It would be better sometimes to keep him out of the mix.

Robert:

As I said in another post, I seriously think the Stones ought to think about promoting Blondie (he's a tremendous player still- many folks don't realize this) or bringing in Waddy. Never thought I'd say that before I saw and heard Ronnie's total incompetence in SF. But, the buying public deserves something more than this.

Wow it sounds like even the Ronnie defenders are saying he is completely gone. I wonder if Mick or Keith would ever really kick him out of the band at this point. Its really too bad that he playing this bad because Mick's vocals and Charlie's drumming were just great at the shows I attended. Keith was pretty solid as well. So I know BV says that everyone attending the shows says they are great but I tend to listen more to what people write here rather than critics in the media. And it really doesn't sound good for Ronnie. He played pretty well at the MSG show I was at but seems to be horrible at these west coast gigs. So do you think Mick is getting really annoyed with Ronnie or what.

HD:

I really have to believe the band (Mick especially) is worried and maybe even pondering the unthinkable. It's that bad. I've noticed that even our esteemed BV (who was at both SF shows) hasn't said anything to contradict the Woody reports. That says something to me, too.

you're right t&a. normally bv will end this thread because its truthfully negative about a stone member.i thought ronnie was good last tour, sucked for b2b, good for voodoo. maybe next tour he'll be back!

My wife and I went to the Sun SF show and she was pretty horrified by Ronnie's playing--she's a "casual" fan. The best solos were played by Keith. We were in the upper "view" level and the overall sound was "rumbly" to me and guitars generally
low. Mick's guitar seemed plenty loud for Rain Fall Down which sounded great. I would like keith to be turned up even if he is sloppy.

J.J.Flash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you're right t&a. normally bv will end this
> thread because its truthfully negative about a
> stone member.i thought ronnie was good last tour,
> sucked for b2b, good for voodoo. maybe next tour
> he'll be back!

I doubt that Ronnie will be back next tour. I was hoping that he was back this tour, but in fact Ronnie's playing degenerated even further since Licks (he was quite ok during the US leg of Licks, but Europe was a different thing...). Ronnie destroyed my hopes so far. Just one example - I tried my best to like the live version of Sway as performed in Columbus, tried to convince myself that it was not that bad as many people claim...then, a friend of mine (and Stones fan like me) pulled out Carla Olson's Too Hot For Snakes which I did not listen to since many many years and played her live version of Sway for me...Taylor on lead guitar as a special guest...and...what can I say...I always had in mind that his playing was outstanding on this track, but compared to the recent listening experience of Sway live in Columbus with Ronnie's awful lead lines Taylor's playing on Olson's live Sway suddenly sounded out of this world for me.

Oh yes, these comparisons. Taylor's time with the Stones is gone, long gone, and will never come back. But there are other guitar players out there who are able to play at least half as good as Taylor - and it would sound ten times better than Ronnie's uninspired noodling and doodling these days.

But Ronnie is so important for the image of the Stones - when he's gone, there's only three left - that I doubt they will sack him at this point in Stones history. The will stick with him - or call it quits as a live band.

Yes, these comparisons. They make me sad too. Because comparisons like Sway (Olsons live with Taylor - Stones live Coumbus 2005) always remind that if you want to hear a decent guitar solo on a Stones track you can't listen to the Stones themselves these days and have to choose other artists covering Stones songs instead. So sad.






Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-18 19:38 by retired_dog.

man, this thread is bringing me down. i feel like impending doom is upon us. this really may be it. i never thought that before. i always knew they'd be back. man, this sucks. f-ing wood is gonna f this thing up!!!!!!!!!

I don't think they will change. The only thing left for us: looking at the concert-pictures. They look amazing, and a good shoot still gives back the power, energy, that once came out of the music.

And there's one question that does not let me sleep at night: WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG, RONNIE? What is it? Lack of interest, lack of inspiration ("The Thrill Is Gone"), alcohol, drugs, a serious desease like Parkinson in the early stages or what?

retired dog:

my theory is not so much that Woody isn't inspired anymore - it's simply that he physically cannot play anymore. Sad. The chops have eroded steadily over the past coupla decades. I watched his hands closely a few times during his feeble attempts on songs like YCAGWYW and Slipping Away - it seemed pretty evident to me that he couldn't get his hands to do what he wanted them to do.

Agree retired dog..i could ask the same questions..lack of interest.. would be a shame if thats the reason..if the booze @#$%& him up and makes him incapable of playing he would surely have to stop!

Nevertheless..when i attended my last show (copenhagen`03) i got really annoyed with how bad ronnie played..still; i had the feeling afterwards it was the best show i`ve ever been to..funny isn`t it?

larso:

I agree with you - I wouldn't say the SF shows were among the best Stones shows I've seen, but Ronnie's incompetence hardly ruined them for me. As someone else posted, Ronnie has become truly irrelevent musically.

I keep on reading all these comments about Ronnie and it makes me feel sad. When the US leg of the Licks tour was running, I didn't find all the fuss about Ronnie as true as my ears were telling me: he was quite average, playing well when compared with the B2B Tour but nowhere near half the level of what I expected from the great guitarist he was. I later saw the Stones here in Europe, and his playing was quite poor. And now these reviews make feel that the guy is passing through another playing crisis. Having in mind that Keith is no longer the guitarist he once was (despite anything the concert attendants could tell me about how good he was a certain day), I really don't know what to think about what the european leg can be.

I admit that having only one actual guitarist (and whose playing shape ain't the best, neither) in a band with a sound relying (sp?) on two guitars is not the best expectation I did dream about... But on the other hand I would feel angry towards the Glimmers if they dare to replace Ronnie at this height of their carrer. From now on, to me the Stones without Ronnie wouldn't be the Stones.. So I don't know what to think.

What's the matter with Ronnie? I truly feel sad for him, because I love this guy, I grew up listening to him playing with the band, and looking at him as the most funny and lovely Stone, and because it's one of the players I used to love his style and tried to imitate (without success, I must admit).

Sad thoughts, mates...

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Bruno,
I was at the second SF show and was really pulling for Ronnie. I was hoping that he would somehow rally and actually contribute to the performance, but that was not the case. He runs around and poses for the camera and also keeps a close eye on Jagger. And every time Jagger looks at him he strikes up a pose - MJ appears to run a tight ship.

As I've mentioned before, the thing I dont' get is how the rest of the band can put up w/ this. They're hearing the same piss-poor playing as us - what do they think?

Does anyone know if a serious music/guitar magazine has ever commented on Ronnie's lack of playing?

mcparty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruno,
> I was at the second SF show and was really pulling
> for Ronnie. I was hoping that he would somehow
> rally and actually contribute to the performance,
> but that was not the case. He runs around and
> poses for the camera and also keeps a close eye on
> Jagger. And every time Jagger looks at him he
> strikes up a pose - MJ appears to run a tight
> ship.
>
> As I've mentioned before, the thing I dont' get is
> how the rest of the band can put up w/ this.
> They're hearing the same piss-poor playing as us -
> what do they think?
>
> Does anyone know if a serious music/guitar
> magazine has ever commented on Ronnie's lack of
> playing?

Yeah, that's remarkable. This forum is full of fans, who critizise Ronnies guitar work. But in the official reviews you can't find anything like that. And it is remarkable that nobody of the band or the crew seems to try to change anything in this matter. There is a great silence about the decline of a famous and very good guitar player. I think the best Ronnie could do is to retire and have a comeback if he can handle his alco problem.

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> retired dog:
>
> my theory is not so much that Woody isn't inspired
> anymore - it's simply that he physically cannot
> play anymore. Sad. The chops have eroded steadily
> over the past coupla decades. I watched his hands
> closely a few times during his feeble attempts on
> songs like YCAGWYW and Slipping Away - it seemed
> pretty evident to me that he couldn't get his
> hands to do what he wanted them to do.


Yes, I agree... But I also caught a glimpse of Ronnie in Anaheim with body language and a look on his face that was a mix of anger and sarcasm (the way I read it, anyway). I think he just doesn't want to do this anymore, for whatever reason... like you say, maybe he can't... or he's just fed up working for these guys (Keith and Mick).

bigbang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> T&A Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > retired dog:
> >
> > my theory is not so much that Woody isn't
> inspired
> > anymore - it's simply that he physically
> cannot
> > play anymore. Sad. The chops have eroded
> steadily
> > over the past coupla decades. I watched his
> hands
> > closely a few times during his feeble
> attempts on
> > songs like YCAGWYW and Slipping Away - it
> seemed
> > pretty evident to me that he couldn't get
> his
> > hands to do what he wanted them to do.
>
>
> Yes, I agree... But I also caught a glimpse of
> Ronnie in Anaheim with body language and a look on
> his face that was a mix of anger and sarcasm (the
> way I read it, anyway). I think he just doesn't
> want to do this anymore, for whatever reason...
> like you say, maybe he can't... or he's just fed
> up working for these guys (Keith and Mick).
>

This makes sense...from a financial viewpoint, it is better for him if they fire him and have to pay a huge compensation for getting him out of the band contract...but if he leaves the band and quits the contract, they won't have to pay him anything. So does he provoke his departure from the band ? By intentionally playing so bad that the others may feel at one point "it can't go on like this...it destroys our reputation" and finally decide "Ronnie has to go" ? Who knows ? Intentionally playing bad would somehow explain why he is still able to play well when he is on is own - listen to his solo gig from earlier this year!!! - while playing so bad, so many bum notes, so many @#$%& up solos, when he is with the band.

Or maybe it's just that the alcohol or other stuff has finally destroyed his ability to play.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-18 22:31 by retired_dog.

personally, I wasn't that impressed with Ronnie had the solo gig earlier this year, either, frankly. I realize others have dissenting opinions. I don't think he's doing anything intentionally. You'd think that if he had the ability to play reasonably well that the music alone would inspire him to play a decent run of notes once in a blue moon.

Good point, T&A. Even if he is intentionally playing bad to get the boot from the other boys (and a generous financial reward after being kicked out), as a musician he must get carried away from sheer tactics at least once in a while.

By the way, I meant the solo gig was quite good by his standards these days. I did not say that he played as he used to play in the past, not to speak of the 70's.

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert:
>
> As I said in another post, I seriously think the
> Stones ought to think about promoting Blondie
> (he's a tremendous player still- many folks don't
> realize this) or bringing in Waddy. Never thought
> I'd say that before I saw and heard Ronnie's total
> incompetence in SF. But, the buying public
> deserves something more than this.


T&A:

I agree; I saw "Four Flicks" yesterday again. And Blondie plays acoustic guitar on "Beast of Burden" and (acoustic, yes!) on "When the Wip Comes Down". On "Live Licks" he is out of the mix on the same songs, so you can hear that even his little contributions enrich the sound of our band. I don't think that Mick Taylor can solve the problems. What we need is a guitar player who fits to the band character of the last 30 years. If Ronnie is able to do his guitar work in the manner he did in the seventies (rhythm-rooted, but with nice solos) we have no problem.

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> retired dog:
>
> my theory is not so much that Woody isn't inspired
> anymore - it's simply that he physically cannot
> play anymore. Sad. The chops have eroded steadily
> over the past coupla decades. I watched his hands
> closely a few times during his feeble attempts on
> songs like YCAGWYW and Slipping Away - it seemed
> pretty evident to me that he couldn't get his
> hands to do what he wanted them to do.

Do not agree.....if you were right than why people say that Ronnie plays awesome when not playing with the Stones.
( playing on his own, or as guest with other bands,)
I still have the positive reviews in my ears when he playd "Ronny & his fiends" early this year.