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Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: January 30, 2021 03:54

I agree with the statement that we just don't know what is in the vault. But if you look at what we know with certainty; all 4 Texas shows were recorded in '72, that the Philly shows in '72 as we have heard the overdubs. The '72 MSG shows were likely recorded. It is known that the Stones wanted to release a '72 tour album and would have recorded many shows to chose from as all artists did at the time. We also know they recorded the '73 shows and not just bits and pieces of them. There's no reason to think that there are fewer recordings. In fact I would guess (and of course it's a guess) that each tour that followed they have recorded more and more show. And why would they not do that. Look at the contemporary groups that we know have numerous shows, like Springsteen, the Who and Neil Young as well as Dylan. More and more keeps being revealed by each of them. And without a doubt they were not as "high dollar" outfit as the Stones have always been. These are all assumptions and I can't think of a reason to take a more negative approach to thinking about their existence

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: January 30, 2021 05:06

OK I don't want to argue with you, and I respect your opinion, but I think perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an outfit that has been deeply dysfunctional for a very long time, even back from the sixties. So what seems logical to us may in fact be very anti-logical given the actual environment these guys were operating within. That to me indicates there is a good chance that even though some of these shows were recorded with an eye to releasing them, it was a slip shod process and they well could have been misplaced, or stolen, over the years, or stored in less than ideal conditions, leading to unretrievable or compromised recordings.

But I hope I am wrong; it just seems that history would be on my side, that along with the dearth of really significant live recording releases since they "opened" the vault.

jb

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 30, 2021 06:32

Has there ever been any information about how much, or if, the Stones are involved with any of the live archive releases? If there has I've either forgotten or missed it.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 30, 2021 07:02

Quote
jbwelda
OK I don't want to argue with you, and I respect your opinion, but I think perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an outfit that has been deeply dysfunctional for a very long time, even back from the sixties. So what seems logical to us may in fact be very anti-logical given the actual environment these guys were operating within. That to me indicates there is a good chance that even though some of these shows were recorded with an eye to releasing them, it was a slip shod process and they well could have been misplaced, or stolen, over the years, or stored in less than ideal conditions, leading to unretrievable or compromised recordings.

But I hope I am wrong; it just seems that history would be on my side, that along with the dearth of really significant live recording releases since they "opened" the vault.

jb

I think of them finding the Rock and Roll Circus video in where, a barn? God knows where some stuff is. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: MadMax ()
Date: January 30, 2021 12:07

Quote
24FPS
Quote
jbwelda
OK I don't want to argue with you, and I respect your opinion, but I think perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an outfit that has been deeply dysfunctional for a very long time, even back from the sixties. So what seems logical to us may in fact be very anti-logical given the actual environment these guys were operating within. That to me indicates there is a good chance that even though some of these shows were recorded with an eye to releasing them, it was a slip shod process and they well could have been misplaced, or stolen, over the years, or stored in less than ideal conditions, leading to unretrievable or compromised recordings.

But I hope I am wrong; it just seems that history would be on my side, that along with the dearth of really significant live recording releases since they "opened" the vault.

jb

I think of them finding the Rock and Roll Circus video in where, a barn? God knows where some stuff is. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.


grinning smiley

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: January 30, 2021 16:59

I guess one of the points I didn't clarify was that I wonder if there is any access to the Stones' people through some other means? Most of us are not youngsters and are likely not great at social media. Take this site for example. It is very 2001 and not very 2021 (and please that is absolutely no disrespect to IORR which I dearly love and have been reading for as long as I can remember including the old mail version). How do you get things done anymore? Not on chat sites but other more effective social media. I may be way out of line but I do think that there must be a way to get through to people wit access to the Stones or decision makers regarding music in the vaults. I may be crazy but it's just a thought

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: January 30, 2021 17:19

Quote
wonderboy
Tour rehearsals, studio jams, basic tracks, chit chat in the studio (Wot now?) -- stuff only we would be interested in.

Speak for yourself grinning smiley

There's a different level of expectation between unofficial material that you'd be happy to download for free and listen to once or even pay a few quid for at a bootleg record fair and stuff that the band should officially put their name and reputation to.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: January 30, 2021 17:29

Why not a package of audio from Altamont including the other bands, along with Gimme Shelter with extra fottage?

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: January 30, 2021 20:11

Most of the "other bands" from that day want to absolutely distance themselves from the event as much as possible. That is for sure and for real. It was a debacle none of them are proud of, least of all the hosts, the Grateful Dead. The only ones with any interest in it at all would be the Stones and they have pretty much distanced themselves from that situation as much as they can.

jb

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: rbk ()
Date: January 30, 2021 21:03

Who is going to buy all of this "vault" stuff? The primary market for Stones material is men in their sixties and seventies, perhaps some in their late fifties but a significant minority I'd imagine. Whatever is left is redundant for the most part. For example "Brussels Affair" is an exceptional recording exemplifying the '72-'73 period beautifully. Why put out "Philly Special" or whatever, when it would be essentially the same line up (Billy Preston notwithstanding) playing much the same set? At this point every major tour the Stones have done (with the exception of Europe 1970 which WOULD be interesting) is represented by a quality, major release. As the coming years and even months go by, the feasibility of a viable release of second tier and repeat stuff lessens.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: January 30, 2021 21:13

Quote
jbwelda
Most of the "other bands" from that day want to absolutely distance themselves from the event as much as possible. That is for sure and for real. It was a debacle none of them are proud of, least of all the hosts, the Grateful Dead. The only ones with any interest in it at all would be the Stones and they have pretty much distanced themselves from that situation as much as they can.

jb

I can't argue with that. Seems reasonable. Too bad though. Because we know for a fact that among music-lovers the '69 tour is one of the happenings in rock'n roll history that's well known, and has a wider approach among casual fans. Artist like Jimi Hendrix have more concert films from his 3 year of lifetime as an artist than the Stones have from '69- 1980. Altamont excist and it has a great value as a historic event. Also Altamont shows the band from a different angle both musically and it's a festival unlike the rest of that tour, (maybe with the exeption of Palm Beach). A release woudn't interfere with a "tour release" like MSG. I'd say it's still many good reasons to let go and give us a real glimpse of that day, musically...

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 30, 2021 23:03

Quote
rbk
Who is going to buy all of this "vault" stuff? The primary market for Stones material is men in their sixties and seventies, perhaps some in their late fifties but a significant minority I'd imagine. Whatever is left is redundant for the most part. For example "Brussels Affair" is an exceptional recording exemplifying the '72-'73 period beautifully. Why put out "Philly Special" or whatever, when it would be essentially the same line up (Billy Preston notwithstanding) playing much the same set? At this point every major tour the Stones have done (with the exception of Europe 1970 which WOULD be interesting) is represented by a quality, major release. As the coming years and even months go by, the feasibility of a viable release of second tier and repeat stuff lessens.
Why putout something from 1972tour? Because it maybe their greatest,and definitely one of their best.That tour is musically different from Europe 1973.Unlike the 1973 tour it had Hopkinsand the Price/Keys duo.The songs were not the same.The playing was different.The guitars sounded different.And it was a tour which took America by storm,much more than1969.In the fall of1969,the Beatles were still around,at least publically.In 1972,the Stones stood a top of the rock music world.Television,most,newspapers,magazines were all covering the tour.From Terry Southern to Truman Capote.It was the first mega-tour.First tour where the Hollywood and social elite wanted to see the band.And they were electrifying.Ask anyone who saw them live on that tour



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-30 23:06 by Taylor1.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: January 30, 2021 23:04

Quote
jbwelda
... I think perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an outfit that has been deeply dysfunctional for a very long time, even back from the sixties. So what seems logical to us may in fact be very anti-logical given the actual environment these guys were operating within. ...
jb

That describes the Stones very well, imo. Part of the reason they are so interesting. Out of that dysfunction and chaos came some great art, as well as mishaps and lost opportunities.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: bleedingman ()
Date: January 30, 2021 23:30

Quote
jbwelda
OK I don't want to argue with you, and I respect your opinion, but I think perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an outfit that has been deeply dysfunctional for a very long time, even back from the sixties. So what seems logical to us may in fact be very anti-logical given the actual environment these guys were operating within. That to me indicates there is a good chance that even though some of these shows were recorded with an eye to releasing them, it was a slip shod process and they well could have been misplaced, or stolen, over the years, or stored in less than ideal conditions, leading to unretrievable or compromised recordings.

But I hope I am wrong; it just seems that history would be on my side, that along with the dearth of really significant live recording releases since they "opened" the vault.

jb

I was standing next to the soundboard at the Passaic show when, during Street Fighting Man, someone leaned over, popped out the tape, and disappeared into the audience leaving the sound guys looking totally confused.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 31, 2021 02:48

Quote
Gazza
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Many of those duets appeared on Honk. I doubt they'll do that again.

True - which makes me more convinced that this was a projected live album idea that just didnt quite come to fruition, but they were able to find an alternative release where they were able to put out some of the tracks.

Hilarious.

If looking at it from a two-disc perspective, Honk is a very good post-1970 career-spanning retrospective. It covers all of the classic hits plus their best 21st century cuts. If taken as a three-disc perspective, then this compilation needs to be looked over again. Disc three, a live album, features the wimpy vocals of Ed Sheeran on “Beast of Burden” and Brad Paisley botching it on Mick’s ode to smack, “Dead Flowers”. The squeaky clean pop stars have no business on any Rolling Stones compilations. To feature them on a “best of” is a complete abomination and an obvious attempt at trying to stay modern. No matter how hard they try the Stones will never be seen as modern. It’s a shame that these cuts were included because it drags down the flow of the rest of the compiled live album.

[spillmagazine.com]

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 1, 2021 05:40

They could throw a wrench in the Big Show releases and put out 1999's Sheperds Bush Empire!

Melody is awesome - and they screwed up but Mick kept it going. It's a pretty damn good version.

Some Girls. I Got The Blues is cranky good. Brand New Car is... a little messy but it's got some swagger to it. It's appropriately messy. Moon Is Up (which Mick doesn't know what album it's from). Route 66.




Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: deeeskannnie ()
Date: February 1, 2021 14:12

Quote
rbk
Who is going to buy all of this "vault" stuff?

I have been buying 'vault' stuff from artists long gone since I was 15. (I'm 52 now.)

I'm still buying - and looking forward to - archive releases from Louis Armstrong, Willy Dixon, Erroll Garner, Johnny Burnette... just like many-many others do; and will continue doing so till I drop stone cold dead I imagine.

And I bet you my record collection that people long after I'm gone will buy that very same material from those very same (type of) artists... no matter what age they are at that moment.
It's called cultural legacy; a thing that sometimes happens when one has a crack at being 'artistic'.
(See also: Beethoven & Mozart's back catalogue; the Sistine Chapel; the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam; ... stuff like that.)
All that market shizzle is just a side-effect you know. Nothing réally important.

To get back to the original question (about it being empty or not): I have, for long now, been under the impression that the réally worthwile 'Vault' stuff is safely kept for when the Stones are irrevocably gone for good. (Hard to imagine; but yes, it will happen...)
Sort of like an elaborate 'pension plan' for 2 or 3 next generations of "Jagger"- and "Richards"-'s.

Could be wrong, obviously; just my take on it.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 2, 2021 16:28

The one thing I want they won't release: the plethora of unreleased studio recordings. What they have released with EOMS, SG and GHS is nice, some are great, but it's hardly anything. It doesn't matter if they're not finished.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: February 2, 2021 17:15

Quote
GasLightStreet
The one thing I want they won't release: the plethora of unreleased studio recordings. What they have released with EOMS, SG and GHS is nice, some are great, but it's hardly anything. It doesn't matter if they're not finished.

Well, it doesn't matter to you. If it matters to the artist(s) concerned is a different thing!

I clearly remember a rehearsal evening with my band when we developed a new song on the spot out of a spontaneous jam and did a quick recording from our mixing desk that came out pretty well - speaking of sound quality and actual performance. Only thing was that due to the quick and spontaneous creation of the song, of course I had no finished lyrics, so I used words that sounded well, but were no "lyrics" that made actual sense. A couple of cassettes were quickly copied for band members to listen to at home and think about possible improvements. Some days later, a local fan came up to me and said: "Hey, I really like your new single, good stuff! But what are you singing about?" I replied: "New single? What...new single?" - only to learn that our drummer had nothing better to do than taking the demo to a local music club after the rehearsal and having it played on the PA! I could have killed our drummer! As the actual artist, I did not want unfinished stuff with nonsense lyrics made available to the public back then and I don't want it even now, decades later.

I'm sure Mick's hesitation to release unfinished stuff with mumbled non-sense lyrics that were created on the spot (no matter how interesting the actual music sounds) derives from the same mindframe.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Father Ted ()
Date: February 2, 2021 17:27

Quote
deeeskannnie
Quote
rbk
Who is going to buy all of this "vault" stuff?

I have been buying 'vault' stuff from artists long gone since I was 15. (I'm 52 now.)

I'm still buying - and looking forward to - archive releases from Louis Armstrong, Willy Dixon, Erroll Garner, Johnny Burnette... just like many-many others do; and will continue doing so till I drop stone cold dead I imagine.

And I bet you my record collection that people long after I'm gone will buy that very same material from those very same (type of) artists... no matter what age they are at that moment.
It's called cultural legacy; a thing that sometimes happens when one has a crack at being 'artistic'.
(See also: Beethoven & Mozart's back catalogue; the Sistine Chapel; the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam; ... stuff like that.)
All that market shizzle is just a side-effect you know. Nothing réally important.

To get back to the original question (about it being empty or not): I have, for long now, been under the impression that the réally worthwile 'Vault' stuff is safely kept for when the Stones are irrevocably gone for good. (Hard to imagine; but yes, it will happen...)
Sort of like an elaborate 'pension plan' for 2 or 3 next generations of "Jagger"- and "Richards"-'s.

Could be wrong, obviously; just my take on it.

Yep it's been suggested before that they're keeping back the good stuff for their retirement fund. If you slowly drip-feed this stuff out over multiple generations, you get a nice little cash-cow for your descendants too.

"An ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense" - James A. Van Allen

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: February 3, 2021 02:23

I was reading about a review of the 1972 Rubber Bowl concert and the author said the entire concert was shown on closed circuit screens while the concert was occurring.Does that mean there was a video recording of the show.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: February 3, 2021 02:28

There might be but again, probably made on the side, and probably not of professionally releaseable quality. Fine for showing up on the screen during the fact, but not technically "produced" or refined. Probably not releasable in the eyes of those who would make the decision.

jb

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 3, 2021 04:02

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
GasLightStreet
The one thing I want they won't release: the plethora of unreleased studio recordings. What they have released with EOMS, SG and GHS is nice, some are great, but it's hardly anything. It doesn't matter if they're not finished.

Well, it doesn't matter to you. If it matters to the artist(s) concerned is a different thing!

I clearly remember a rehearsal evening with my band when we developed a new song on the spot out of a spontaneous jam and did a quick recording from our mixing desk that came out pretty well - speaking of sound quality and actual performance. Only thing was that due to the quick and spontaneous creation of the song, of course I had no finished lyrics, so I used words that sounded well, but were no "lyrics" that made actual sense. A couple of cassettes were quickly copied for band members to listen to at home and think about possible improvements. Some days later, a local fan came up to me and said: "Hey, I really like your new single, good stuff! But what are you singing about?" I replied: "New single? What...new single?" - only to learn that our drummer had nothing better to do than taking the demo to a local music club after the rehearsal and having it played on the PA! I could have killed our drummer! As the actual artist, I did not want unfinished stuff with nonsense lyrics made available to the public back then and I don't want it even now, decades later.

I'm sure Mick's hesitation to release unfinished stuff with mumbled non-sense lyrics that were created on the spot (no matter how interesting the actual music sounds) derives from the same mindframe.

Ah, vowel movements!

Well, I guess where I'm coming from is it didn't bother Paul, George and Ringo with the anthologies...

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: February 3, 2021 06:33

I thought of something that could be far down the line. The 2012 rehearsals with Bill. I wonder if they recorded them. I'm sure they played a lot of stuff they did for themselves. Could be interesting.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Father Ted ()
Date: February 3, 2021 16:08

Quote
Taylor1
I was reading about a review of the 1972 Rubber Bowl concert and the author said the entire concert was shown on closed circuit screens while the concert was occurring.Does that mean there was a video recording of the show.

I'm sure they've already released one concert which was originally filmed for the venue's CCTV system - it may have been the LA Forum show from 1975?

"An ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense" - James A. Van Allen

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Erik_Snow ()
Date: February 3, 2021 17:07

Quote
Father Ted
I'm sure they've already released one concert which was originally filmed for the venue's CCTV system - it may have been the LA Forum show from 1975?

Maybe Leeds 1982, but not LA 1975.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: February 3, 2021 17:56

Quote
Father Ted

Yep it's been suggested before that they're keeping back the good stuff for their retirement fund. If you slowly drip-feed this stuff out over multiple generations, you get a nice little cash-cow for your descendants too.

Could be, but as has been pointed out, the market for archival releases is old guys. I just can't imagine that many people in 2045 caring one way or the other about a release of Rolling Stones studio jams.

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 26, 2021 16:55

Looks like the whole Echoplex Club-Show (LA, 27-Apr-2013) was Pro-Shot filmed:



Start Me Up - [www.YouTube.com]




You Got Me Rocking / Respectable / She's So Cold - [www.YouTube.com]

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Father Ted ()
Date: March 26, 2021 17:23

Quote
Irix
Looks like the whole Echoplex Club-Show (LA, 27-Apr-2013) was Pro-Shot filmed:



Start Me Up - [www.YouTube.com]




You Got Me Rocking / Respectable / She's So Cold - [www.YouTube.com]

Nice find. Is this a trailer for a forthcoming release? (Can't watch, I;m at work)

"An ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense" - James A. Van Allen

Re: Is the Vault Empty?
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: March 26, 2021 18:51

Hmm.. If the whole performance is really captured, I wish they would release some way "Love In Vain" with Mick Taylor from that gig. Personally I would prefer their own youtube channel, since I am not that interest in purchasing these vault releases of whole gigs from recent years. I am not that big stamp collector of rarely played numbers in general, but the performance of that particular number would be interesting to hear.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-26 18:54 by Doxa.

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