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Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: October 25, 2020 17:50

Just to complete the argument: What do you call those drums, stacked on top of the set, that makes a synthesized sound?

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 25, 2020 18:41

Quote
Witness
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georgie48
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Taylor1
What a great song.Its a shame Mick didn’t save it for Dirty Work along with some of the good songs from his She’s the Boss album,like Just Another Night,Secrets,Lucky in Love.But Hard Women is a classic song IM0

It's a nice song with potential. When I listened to it several times when the CD was released, I thought "what a shame. If this song would have been handled by the Rolling Stones it could have turned into a kind of "Angie", but differently".
The song is missing some chord changes and has some not needed chord changes to make it special.

Possibly! It might have gained something. By virtue of how good and even great it now is, in my opinion, also something might been lost.

We will never know. In a hypothetical parallell world's IORR some poster will pose the opposite question: Might the song have been better if Mick Jagger would have included it in SHE'S THE BOSS, instead of using the song idea in DIRTY WORK?

You're right. We'll never know winking smiley
Mick uses quite some different instrumentation on his solo albums. No surprise really, because else those albums would have looked like off track Rolling Stones albums. All in all, Mick wrote a fair number of good songs for his solo projects, but so did Keith. For me all those solo projects caused the not-surfacing of a number of Stones albums. A real shame.
At least we know what happened to Memo from Turner. How different the movie version is from the raw Stones version. For what it's worth, I think the movie version is magnificant winking smiley

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 25, 2020 18:42

Quote
KRiffhard
Quote
Hairball
Both versions are very poor.

...horrible song.

To me it sounds like any generic sappy ballad c.1985 from any crappy pop crooner - like something from Michael Bolton.
A tune that's been lost in history, but because it's Mick Jagger, some people here praise and defend it which is to be expected I suppose.
The fact is, hardly anyone outside of a few Stones fans would recognize this tune as there's nothing worthy, memorable, or redeemable about it.
Best part of watching the single/video version is reading the comments where many prefer it over the album version, while to me both are unlistenable. > Hard Woman

- "Love this version a LOT more than the "album version". It sounds better and COMPLETELY different. This makes it more of a rock ballad".

- "Best version ever! Somone have more info about the record thing between jagger and hooters?...
This version is awesome! light years from the original, soooo good"!


Lol.................

________________
Keep on rolling.......

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 25, 2020 18:50

If UNDERCOVER had been more favourably received, Keith and Mick would have had larger incentives to make their contributions into a mutual effort. To me that was the fatal occasion, georgie48, I have thought for a long time. Several Stones albums could have followed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-25 18:51 by Witness.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: October 25, 2020 19:54

Quote
Witness
If UNDERCOVER had been more favourably received, Keith and Mick would have had larger incentives to make their contributions into a mutual effort. To me that was the fatal occasion, georgie48, I have thought for a long time. Several Stones albums could have followed.

You're right. UNDERCOVER looks like a real J/R efford, but maybe they went a bit to far with looking for new ways of creating songs. I'm fine with that album, but many were not. DIRTY WORK should never have been made the way is was made. A real shame. But they came back together and we're all very happy ever since (all with our own tastes winking smiley). 35 years later! (Not with the second corona wave, though hot smiley)

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 25, 2020 22:18

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georgie48
Quote
Witness
If UNDERCOVER had been more favourably received, Keith and Mick would have had larger incentives to make their contributions into a mutual effort. To me that was the fatal occasion, georgie48, I have thought for a long time. Several Stones albums could have followed.

You're right. UNDERCOVER looks like a real J/R efford, but maybe they went a bit to far with looking for new ways of creating songs. I'm fine with that album, but many were not. DIRTY WORK should never have been made the way is was made. A real shame. But they came back together and we're all very happy ever since (all with our own tastes winking smiley). 35 years later! (Not with the second corona wave, though hot smiley)

The progression of albums that were Pathe Marconi, was broken though. The band was never able to reach that level of quality again by combined inspiration and sufficient work in the studios later on. Without that break of progression further albums in a similar vein might have followed in the wake of EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER. Those potensial albums that we did not receive, are our great loss.

The albums that later actually followed, could not measure with those that should have ensued with the continuity preserved.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: October 25, 2020 22:34

Quote
Witness
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georgie48
Quote
Witness
If UNDERCOVER had been more favourably received, Keith and Mick would have had larger incentives to make their contributions into a mutual effort. To me that was the fatal occasion, georgie48, I have thought for a long time. Several Stones albums could have followed.

You're right. UNDERCOVER looks like a real J/R efford, but maybe they went a bit to far with looking for new ways of creating songs. I'm fine with that album, but many were not. DIRTY WORK should never have been made the way is was made. A real shame. But they came back together and we're all very happy ever since (all with our own tastes winking smiley). 35 years later! (Not with the second corona wave, though hot smiley)

The progression of albums that were Pathe Marconi, was broken though. The band was never able to reach that level of quality again by combined inspiration and sufficient work in the studios later on. Without that break of progression further albums in a similar vein might have followed in the wake of EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER. Those potensial albums that we did not receive, are our great loss.

The albums that later actually followed, could not measure with those that should have ensued with the continuity preserved.

Interesting thought. I love Undercover, but in your scenario, if I'm reading it correctly, it's existence and lack of appreciation for it breaks the creative cycle, which they never get back to the same level.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 25, 2020 22:43

Your reading is correct, treaclefingers.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: October 25, 2020 22:48

great pop ballad, maybe the last real great ballad by mick (for prove compare it to a poor remake like blinded by rainbows) and great video too. good memories



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-25 22:51 by maumau.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Fernandobsas ()
Date: October 25, 2020 22:58

I think its a great great song, If Hard Woman would had been in Undercover I think would had been played live many many times.

Bye
Fernando

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 25, 2020 23:25







ROCKMAN

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 26, 2020 00:07

The album version is a great effort
esp Mick's pronunciation and rolling
slurred stretched vocal work .... it always made Super Scruff smile thru tears ...

The single take is not the best ...
Music show jocks at the time use ta bang on
about how the video was new technology and
one of the most expensive ever made ....
But back then it all seemed like kids stuff ....



ROCKMAN

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 26, 2020 00:25





ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-26 00:41 by Rockman.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 26, 2020 02:11



SPIN magazine January 1986 ...........



ROCKMAN

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: October 26, 2020 02:28

Quote
Stoneage
Just to complete the argument: What do you call those drums, stacked on top of the set, that makes a synthesized sound?

Simmons drums? Memory a little hazy....

"No Anchovies, Please"

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: October 26, 2020 06:23

Okay song at best. I do like when the guitar solo kicks in, as well as his vocals right before it ("tough cookie, hard lady!").
Agree that the video version was a waste of time.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 26, 2020 14:44

I vaguesly remember hearing the single version, like seeing the video, back in the day, but never put too much thought on it ever (this is also to say that it didn't impress me too much then). So it was interesting to hear it now, decades after, and out of its context. "Hard Woman" establishes itself a very well written song, if anything else. Seemingly the idea was to give the song such a clothing that it is more dancable and 'not-so-slow' as the album version. More commercial value, that is. It is much better than I recall it being.

Which holds true to the album version as well. I pretty much recall it being a bit too 'sugarish' and 'easy poppish' to my taste back then, and I wasn't too fond of the melodic flow of it either - sounded a bit too artefactual - and Jagger trying a bit too much. But now I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Could it be that it was like the mentioned "Angie" over a decade earlier - Mick taking such a direction that it simply sounded too much for cultivated Stones fan ears? UNDERCOVER didn't offer any melodic ballads, and the b-side of TATTOO YOU sounded much more 'matured', reflective and soulful. "Indian Girl" from EMOTIONAL RESCUE was also something else, as SOME GIRLS slower songs ("Beast of Burden", "Faraway Eyes"). We hadn't heard Jagger like that for years (or probably ever).

I liked SHE'S THE BOSS very much over-all - like still do - but had difficulties with "Hard Woman". For some odd reason, I prefered PRIMITIVE COOL ones, "Party Doll" and "Say You Will" - both going further the road he started with "Hard Woman". Now it sounds like one of the best ballads he has ever written, and also sang. He sounds inspired there, going somewhere. There is not a song of that caliber in any ballads he has done for the Stones ever since (for some reason, both Mick and Keith have written their best ballads for their solo albums, me thinks). Both versions are so 1985, if any song can be, but I find that fact charming (there was times I wouldn't have thought so). It is like "Ruby Tuesday", "We Love You" or "She's A Rainbow" being so 1967, and not reflecting much else. Not every Stones or Stones-relared song need to sound like it was made for LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS or EXILE, even though in those albums the Stones managed to create music and sonical landscape that has a kind of eternal appeal, beyond time and place, sounding always as relevant as ever. But thank god, their catalogue offers more richness and variations.

Interestingly, "Hard Woman" seem to do rather nicely in Spotify if compared to music Mick and The Stones released at the time. With its 2,9 million streams it is the 5th best doing Jagger solo song of all-time (best being "Dancing In the Street" with Bowie from the same year, with over 20 million streams), The (post-TATTOO YOU) 80's altogether is nowadays a kind of lost era for the Stones if we are to believe Spotify. From UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK there are only the biggest single tracks doing better than "Hard Woman": "Undercover of The Night" (5,6 m) and "Harlem Shuffle" (7,5 m). For example, "Hard Woman" is listened more than "One Hit" (2,1 m) and "She Was Hot" (1,9 m) - and behind those mentioned four tracks most of the songs from those albums have something like from 200k to 400k streams (that literally is next to nothing in Spotify world). One can check how 'strongly' those two albums are represented in the list of the least streamed Stones songs of all time I made some time ago: [iorr.org] So the argument made above that the only the toughest (most stupidiest?grinning smiley) of hardcore Stones fans listen to Jagger solo stuff holds true also to the Stones as well at least as far as their mid 80's output go. Like said, "Hard Woman" is doing relatively - or even surprisingly - well in that company.

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-26 14:57 by Doxa.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 26, 2020 15:10

A fine read, Doxa, especially the third paragraph.

One suggestion I would like to add: The song, the way it is sung, is not only highly inspired. It comes over to my ears as a most personally felt song. That is a vital part of its magic.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: October 26, 2020 15:31

Formula. When Mick says he written 'hundreds' of songs for the new album, they're all like this.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: October 26, 2020 17:22

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-26 17:53 by Stoneage.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 26, 2020 17:56

A much later edit: My mobile tries to "correct" what I write, with my Norwegian as a reference. I don't always discover these alterations.

In this case my trying to correct it back to what I originally wrote, even resulted in a double posting.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-29 12:22 by Witness.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: October 26, 2020 18:01

Album version is my personal fav Jagger solo piece of music.

Loved it since the very release of Boss

Jagger's singing is absolutely inspired. And great lyrics too!

Last but not least, the band is absolutely great. Not the usal big names no substance ... A true band effort: great dynamics and tone to die for!

C

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 26, 2020 18:20

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Stoneage
Quote
Witness
One suggestion I would like to add: The song, the way it is sung, is not only highly inspired. It comes over to my ears as a most personally felt song. That is a vital part of its magic.

You're kidding us, surely. "Personally felt." "Magic". Jagger giving real love and his lover/wife wanting diamonds and treating him cruelly.
Magic, isn't really the first word that comes to mind when I hear the lyrics. Rather something else. Which I won't mention...

Whether the song represents something actually felt and experienced in some dimensions or only a song idea performed, I cannot decide. But the delivery comes over to me as a sincere representation of a lyrics about a deep emotional attachment with some destructive elements, that the I-person have to let go.

You may ridicule that point of view if you like. But I somehow feel it.

Sometimes there is irony or distancing in Mick Jagger's delivery of a song. Not so in "Hard Woman". It may be somewhat exaggerated in the delivery. But I receive it as sincere. I believe in the song as such.

In contrast, in "Indian Girl" the delivery has a more or less ironical surface. Beneath that, however, there is a somewhat at the same time sentimental AND harsh content that avoids the pathetic, by virtue of the surface. " Far Away Eyes" has got something similiar.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: frenki09 ()
Date: October 27, 2020 18:29

I understand the haters. There is something we all gotta hate, don't we. I don't hate anything the Stones or its members have done. But there are songs I don't listen to a lot. One of them is Streets of Love.

Hard Woman is no doubt a catchy song, something you recognize right away after the first few notes.

As a teenager, I loved Hard Woman. I was already a huge Jeff Beck fan at the time and his solo on HW is brilliant. It elevates the song. The solo is sadly missed from the completely different single version.

I have to say, I love the video too. It was pretty unusual looking at the time.

If Hard Woman is a generic ballad, then it follows in the footsteps of Fool To Cry or Angie.

Surprisingly, it was not included on the Best of MJ CD...

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: October 28, 2020 23:45

Great song!

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: floodonthepage ()
Date: October 29, 2020 01:37

I don't remember ever hearing the single version before now. Perhaps it's a matter of what one is used to hearing, but the album version is FAR superior to my ears...having Jeff Beck and the almighty Paul Buckmaster (also on 'Sway' and 'Moonlight Mile'I think?) really make the album version of the song a stand out in Jagger's solo work, unlike that single version which really seems like a Throwaway (Primitive Cool jokes aside cool smiley)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-10-29 01:40 by floodonthepage.

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: SKILLS ()
Date: October 30, 2020 06:30

It wasn't bad, Live in 1988. I do wish he'd do the odd solo Gig.

Re: Hard Woman
Date: October 30, 2020 10:29

Quote
Witness
A much later edit: My mobile tries to "correct" what I write, with my Norwegian as a reference. I don't always discover these alterations.

In this case my trying to correct it back to what I originally wrote, even resulted in a double posting.

Add the English auto-correct program as well (you can switch by swiping the spacebar on Samsung phones). That'll make it easier smiling smiley

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 30, 2020 11:24





ROCKMAN

Re: Hard Woman
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: October 31, 2020 15:32

Quote
Witness
Your reading is correct, treaclefingers.

An interesting theory, and which may also at least in part, be the impetus to try something solo.

"Rolling Stones aren't selling, I'm really the star, why don't I try it on my own?"

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