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Taylor1
I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.

There were 9 engineers on Black And Blue. How do you know what was Harwood's or, say, Glyn Johns's work?

What we know is that Andy Johns engineered IORR, and that Harwood mixed it. IMO, it's perhaps the worst-sounding Stones-album ever, mixing-wise (except for a couple of songs that sound really nice - one of them being Fingerprint File, which Glyn Johns mixed).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-09 11:20 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Taylor1
I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.

There were 9 engineers on Black And Blue. How do you know what was Harwood's or, say, Glyn Johns's work?

What we know is that Andy Johns engineered IORR, and that Harwood mixed it. IMO, it's perhaps the worst-sounding Stones-album ever, mixing-wise (except for a couple of songs that sound really nice - one of them being Fingerprint File, which Glyn Johns mixed).

Yes I agree - IORR is a terrible mix - to me it sounds really muddy and flat. However, I have heard other albums from that 73-74 era which also sound bad - eg Mind Games by John Lennon, Dark Horse and Extra Texture by George Harrison. Maybe it was just the style of mixing in those years - things seem to massively imporve (for the Stones at least) by the time of Black and Blue, which I think is one of the nest sounding Stones albums. And, in general, the sound of records improved massively by the late 70s (I love the sound of vinyl records from the 78-82 period)

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john lomax

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DandelionPowderman

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Taylor1
I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.

There were 9 engineers on Black And Blue. How do you know what was Harwood's or, say, Glyn Johns's work?

What we know is that Andy Johns engineered IORR, and that Harwood mixed it. IMO, it's perhaps the worst-sounding Stones-album ever, mixing-wise (except for a couple of songs that sound really nice - one of them being Fingerprint File, which Glyn Johns mixed).

Yes I agree - IORR is a terrible mix - to me it sounds really muddy and flat. However, I have heard other albums from that 73-74 era which also sound bad - eg Mind Games by John Lennon, Dark Horse and Extra Texture by George Harrison. Maybe it was just the style of mixing in those years - things seem to massively imporve (for the Stones at least) by the time of Black and Blue, which I think is one of the nest sounding Stones albums. And, in general, the sound of records improved massively by the late 70s (I love the sound of vinyl records from the 78-82 period)

Good point!

But there's no excuse for the drum sound on If You Can't Rock Me

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DandelionPowderman

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Taylor1
I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.

There were 9 engineers on Black And Blue. How do you know what was Harwood's or, say, Glyn Johns's work?

What we know is that Andy Johns engineered IORR, and that Harwood mixed it. IMO, it's perhaps the worst-sounding Stones-album ever, mixing-wise (except for a couple of songs that sound really nice - one of them being Fingerprint File, which Glyn Johns mixed).

well,my main point is I think Andy Johns was a bad engineer,and I don’t like Kimsey’s work much either.I liked Harwood on Love You Live, and his work on Black n Blue is good ,because all the songs sound good. So it doesn’t matter whether we know what he did. Compare Topsto anything on Goats Head Soup , where John’s was at the controls

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Taylor1

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DandelionPowderman

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Taylor1
I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.

There were 9 engineers on Black And Blue. How do you know what was Harwood's or, say, Glyn Johns's work?

What we know is that Andy Johns engineered IORR, and that Harwood mixed it. IMO, it's perhaps the worst-sounding Stones-album ever, mixing-wise (except for a couple of songs that sound really nice - one of them being Fingerprint File, which Glyn Johns mixed).

well,my main point is I think Andy Johns was a bad engineer,and I don’t like Kimsey’s work much either.I liked Harwood on Love You Live, and his work on Black n Blue is good ,because all the songs sound good. So it doesn’t matter whether we know what he did. Compare Topsto anything on Goats Head Soup , where John’s was at the controls

This is just my opinion, and I have no idea of how good Andy Johns was to record the sound behind his mixing desk, but I'm pretty sure Andy Johns and Chris Kimsey were proud of their work on albums like Exile and Tattoo You.

Johns parted ways with the Stones during IORR and Harwood engineered the later songs like Time Waits For No One. I’m not sure who engineered the title track because it was done at Wood’s studio, I believe.

The album sounds weak to me. No guts and tinny. I like a lot of the songs and performances though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-09 15:54 by TravelinMan.

Surely, Jimmy Miller had a greater influence on them than just the sound production? It's a pity they wore him down.

Andy Johns engineered:

If You Can't Rock Me
Ain't Too Proud To Beg
Till The Next Goodbye
If You Really Want To Be My Friend
Short And Curlies
Fingerprint File

He didn't mix anything on It's Only Rock N Roll, and he complained that the mixes were "mucked up".

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Stoneage
Surely, Jimmy Miller had a greater influence on them than just the sound production? It's a pity they wore him down.

People say the Stones wore him down, but I have to imagine it was drug use. There was an article somebody shared once by his sister: [www.judithmiller.com]

Eddie Kramer says Jimmy Miller was the best producer he's ever worked with. I believe Miller knew how to get the sounds he wanted, especially with drums. I know he knew some microphone techniques as well, but I think he mainly allowed the engineer to control that aspect of the recording, He also added a lot of percussion ideas to really make songs unique. He was involved in the mixing sessions too.

I think a successful producer like that has to balance the human side of the band with the technical and musical side. IMO, he's one of the best because he got the bands to sound their best.

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TravelinMan
Johns parted ways with the Stones during IORR and Harwood engineered the later songs like Time Waits For No One. I’m not sure who engineered the title track because it was done at Wood’s studio, I believe.

The album sounds weak to me. No guts and tinny. I like a lot of the songs and performances though.

George Chkiantz & Keith Harwood

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GasLightStreet

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LieB
Agreed that Black And Blue and Emotional Rescue sound better than Some Girls. Funny, because Some Girls has better songs on it.

I also agree that Tattoo You was done really well. It sounds great and has great songs on it. That's why I like it more than SG these days.

Right on!

For some reason some people don't understand sound versus whatever, better songs etc. ER may not be critically anywhere near as good as SG but it sure does sound a lot better!

Yep, I agree - although I would say the MAXI single version of "Miss You", the long version, sounds to me the best from the whole era (I would also add: musically too). I have always had mixed emotions about the sound of SOME GIRLS. Sometimes it sounds just muddy and boresome (that was my first impression of the album - sounding disappointing compared to the sound of TATTOO YOU) but other times it sounds just awesome - probably it is just the power of music (great songs and inspirational performances) which make the trick (or I am drunk or something)...

With the mixes of EMOTIONAL RESCUE I think we should add the huge influence of Keith Richards there. He seemingly spent months just mixing and re-mixing the songs (and probably adding some overdubs). That was something that drove Jagger mad (and who seemingly gave up in some point and let Keith to do whatever he wanted)), but I think Keith did a great job. The song material is what it is, but it is mixed beautifully and the playing is distinctive and inspirational (great, tasty guitar tracks here and there, etc.).

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-09 17:04 by Doxa.

Give the Goats Head Soup tapes for the deluxe versionto Bob Clearmountain.If he can make songs likeHeartbreaker or Winter sound like what he did with Tops it will sound great

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Taylor1
Give the Goats Head Soup tapes for the deluxe versionto Bob Clearmountain.If he can make songs likeHeartbreaker or Winter sound like what he did with Tops it will sound great

Since no album tracks have ever been remixed for any reissue there's no reason to think any would happen ever.

The Virgin MADE IN THE SHADE has the best sounding versions of those songs that I've heard but that was because of Bob Ludwig's remastering for that album.

I will throw my 2 Dracmas in and say that Black and Blue was the off album back then . Here's why I say that , the Stones were in transition due to Mick Taylor ditching the Twins and bringing in new guns to have a listen to and the chaos comes thru on the recordings or tunes on Black and Blue . So much diversity in the tracks where it was not cohesive to me in that the songwriting was all over the place . A perfect example would be Melody . I am not saying that it is a horrendous album or anything but it's all over the place compared to Some Girls or EOMS , which both of those albums for example had a format or a theme and took you on a journey and back . Where Black and Blue to me is going on a journey without any navigation and your driving around lost and trying to find your exit ramp or street as to where you are going and what direction you are going as well .

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TheGreek
I will throw my 2 Dracmas in

Apologies for going off on a tangent, but seeing this reminded me of when I was a kid and my brother and I spent a few summers in Greece with our grandparents.
Before it was time to leave, we would gather up all our drachmes and go to the bank and exchange all of it for 2 drachma coins.
We'd end up with a nice little bag of them.
Once we landed back in the States, we'd head right for the vending machines and video arcades because the 2 drachma coin was the same size and weight as a U.S. quarter.

Could someone explain (in relatively simple terms) what remastering does to make songs sound better.

Thanks

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Elmo Lewis
Could someone explain (in relatively simple terms) what remastering does to make songs sound better.

Thanks

It can brighten some things up, dampen some things that are too bright, increase or decrease bottom end and make levels (more) cohesive given the changes in some EQs.

And now you know why what Stefffffan Marcussen has done to the 1971 onward remasterings and masterings has rurnt their releases: he over-compresses everything to make it all as loud as possible. Loud doesn't improve anything if it makes everything sound loud.

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GasLightStreet

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Elmo Lewis
Could someone explain (in relatively simple terms) what remastering does to make songs sound better.

Thanks

It can brighten some things up, dampen some things that are too bright, increase or decrease bottom end and make levels (more) cohesive given the changes in some EQs.

And now you know why what Stefffffan Marcussen has done to the 1971 onward remasterings and masterings has rurnt their releases: he over-compresses everything to make it all as loud as possible. Loud doesn't improve anything if it makes everything sound loud.

So it's not a re-mix, but done with the EQ? Makes sense.

"No Anchovies, Please"

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Taylor1
Give the Goats Head Soup tapes for the deluxe versionto Bob Clearmountain.If he can make songs likeHeartbreaker or Winter sound like what he did with Tops it will sound great

You mean bright and trebly? It wouldn't work imo. TY was designed to get airplay on FM radios hence the bright sound of the tracks.
Goats Head Soup has a different vibe it feels and sounds like a pillow.

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Elmo Lewis

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GasLightStreet

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Elmo Lewis
Could someone explain (in relatively simple terms) what remastering does to make songs sound better.

Thanks

It can brighten some things up, dampen some things that are too bright, increase or decrease bottom end and make levels (more) cohesive given the changes in some EQs.

And now you know why what Stefffffan Marcussen has done to the 1971 onward remasterings and masterings has rurnt their releases: he over-compresses everything to make it all as loud as possible. Loud doesn't improve anything if it makes everything sound loud.

So it's not a re-mix, but done with the EQ? Makes sense.

A remix, which is nothing more than a different mix from the original, is changing individual tracks in terms of their sound and volume. It is not related at all to mastering/remastering.

Gotcha!

IORR, GHS, and Gimme Some Neck (and, yes, Exile and L.I.B.) could all stand a little/lot of work to sound brighter, not louder though. Gimme Shelter, for one, could be made to sound great (even greater). Sorry if I'm blasphemous about those 2 albums.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-12 18:32 by Elmo Lewis.

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dcba

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Taylor1
Give the Goats Head Soup tapes for the deluxe versionto Bob Clearmountain.If he can make songs likeHeartbreaker or Winter sound like what he did with Tops it will sound great

You mean bright and trebly? It wouldn't work imo. TY was designed to get airplay on FM radios hence the bright sound of the tracks.
Goats Head Soup has a different vibe it feels and sounds like a pillow.

well,Tops came from the Goats Head Soup sessions,so why couldn’t Goats Head soup sound likeTops?