Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

This is a brilliant example of something that is simultaneously tremendously good news and dreadfully awful news!

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

Uh, oh. Big tech and big government really want to track citizens. Once they do this, we won't be able to stop them from tracking all our activities.

Quote
daspyknows

Quote
Maindefender

Quote
daspyknows

Quote
IGTBA
The US is counting COVID 19 deaths, by counting anyone who tested, or is presumed, positive who dies. So those who are very old and/or have serious other conditions will be counted as COVID 19 deaths, if they tested or were were presumed to be positive for the virus. That will make US deaths look worse on a worldwide scale, but it is indicative of the seriousness of COVID 19.

Does anyone believe the US already has more than three times the deaths from COVID 19 as China??? That's what the numbers show! The WHO numbers! What does that say about the veracity of the WHO's numbers?

US under reporting deaths. Unless they are testing the bodies as positive for Covid many states are not classifying as Covid deaths and there are not enough tests to do it. NYC is seeing lots of cardiac arrest deaths but not counting all as Covid despite the EMT's knowing. Some red states intentionally keeping numbers lower too.

Link to story please, God forbid there's some fake news floating around....

[www.nytimes.com]

I know the NY Times is a purveyor of fake news according to the Fox News and Newsmax crowd but those on the front lines in NY are saying the spike in cardiac arrest deaths are Coronavirus but there are no testing supplies for the living let alone the dead.

Thank you for providing the source for your comment. That NYT article appears to be good journalism and includes lots of supporting quotes and facts. It focuses on many issues early in this COVID 19 situation - when yes there were misunderstandings and inconsistencies. But it also includes the following:

"Late last week, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance for how to certify coronavirus deaths, underscoring the need for uniformity and reinforcing the sense by health care workers and others that deaths have not been consistently tracked. In its guidance, the C.D.C. instructed officials to report deaths where the patient has tested positive or, in an absence of testing, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.”"

Also, I did not see evidence the journalists did any investigation to uncover whether some deaths, from people with serious underlying conditions were erroneously reported as COVID 19 deaths. In other words, while it appears to be good journalism; it was only focused on possible under-counting.

I read that complete article carefully and my conclusion is different than yours - yes, there WAS some under-counting, but not significant regarding the overall death counts - and given the CDC guidelines issued a week ago, the current and future counting is more likely to count as COVID 19 deaths, people with serious other conditions who had some COVID 19 symptoms, but actually passed away from a different condition. That said, I doubt the errors either way will be very large. The point of my initial post was that the US is fully counting deaths due to COVID 19 - and comparing US deaths to many other countries deaths, using published numbers, is invalid because most other countries are seriously under counting COVID 19 deaths. The counting problems described in the NYT article are almost certainly prevalent in other countries - and probably worse in many. There are also countries that are clearly lying about their numbers, such as China.

Also, I saw NOTHING in that NYT article supporting your comment about "Some red states intentionally keeping numbers lower". The NYT's coverage is biased in favor of blue politics, so if they had such evidence regarding red states, they would certainly have emphasized it.

I'm curious as to how media in other countries is treating their own governments.
It's no surprise here that Trump is blamed for everything, and he deserves quite a bit.
Are the Italians and French, etc upset at their leadership?

Quote
wonderboy

Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

Uh, oh. Big tech and big government really want to track citizens. Once they do this, we won't be able to stop them from tracking all our activities.

They already do.

Quote
shattered1978

Quote
wonderboy

Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

Uh, oh. Big tech and big government really want to track citizens. Once they do this, we won't be able to stop them from tracking all our activities.

They already do.

Since two weeks I leave my mobile phone at home if I go out shopping.

Herald Sun --- 11 April 2020



ROCKMAN

Quote
IGTBA

Quote
daspyknows

Quote
Maindefender

Quote
daspyknows

Quote
IGTBA
The US is counting COVID 19 deaths, by counting anyone who tested, or is presumed, positive who dies. So those who are very old and/or have serious other conditions will be counted as COVID 19 deaths, if they tested or were were presumed to be positive for the virus. That will make US deaths look worse on a worldwide scale, but it is indicative of the seriousness of COVID 19.

Does anyone believe the US already has more than three times the deaths from COVID 19 as China??? That's what the numbers show! The WHO numbers! What does that say about the veracity of the WHO's numbers?

US under reporting deaths. Unless they are testing the bodies as positive for Covid many states are not classifying as Covid deaths and there are not enough tests to do it. NYC is seeing lots of cardiac arrest deaths but not counting all as Covid despite the EMT's knowing. Some red states intentionally keeping numbers lower too.

Link to story please, God forbid there's some fake news floating around....

[www.nytimes.com]

I know the NY Times is a purveyor of fake news according to the Fox News and Newsmax crowd but those on the front lines in NY are saying the spike in cardiac arrest deaths are Coronavirus but there are no testing supplies for the living let alone the dead.

Thank you for providing the source for your comment. That NYT article appears to be good journalism and includes lots of supporting quotes and facts. It focuses on many issues early in this COVID 19 situation - when yes there were misunderstandings and inconsistencies. But it also includes the following:

"Late last week, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance for how to certify coronavirus deaths, underscoring the need for uniformity and reinforcing the sense by health care workers and others that deaths have not been consistently tracked. In its guidance, the C.D.C. instructed officials to report deaths where the patient has tested positive or, in an absence of testing, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.”"

Also, I did not see evidence the journalists did any investigation to uncover whether some deaths, from people with serious underlying conditions were erroneously reported as COVID 19 deaths. In other words, while it appears to be good journalism; it was only focused on possible under-counting.

I read that complete article carefully and my conclusion is different than yours - yes, there WAS some under-counting, but not significant regarding the overall death counts - and given the CDC guidelines issued a week ago, the current and future counting is more likely to count as COVID 19 deaths, people with serious other conditions who had some COVID 19 symptoms, but actually passed away from a different condition. That said, I doubt the errors either way will be very large. The point of my initial post was that the US is fully counting deaths due to COVID 19 - and comparing US deaths to many other countries deaths, using published numbers, is invalid because most other countries are seriously under counting COVID 19 deaths. The counting problems described in the NYT article are almost certainly prevalent in other countries - and probably worse in many. There are also countries that are clearly lying about their numbers, such as China.

Also, I saw NOTHING in that NYT article supporting your comment about "Some red states intentionally keeping numbers lower". The NYT's coverage is biased in favor of blue politics, so if they had such evidence regarding red states, they would certainly have emphasized it.

I read another article on the red states a few days ago. Pretty sure it was NBC news but can't find it now.

Quote
shattered1978

Quote
wonderboy

Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

Uh, oh. Big tech and big government really want to track citizens. Once they do this, we won't be able to stop them from tracking all our activities.

They already do.

To me, they are on a losing battle as I will throw my phone away. Thus joining the Charlie Watts club

Quote
doitywoik

Quote
Manofwealthandtaste
Apologies if this is an ignorant question, but in the absence of a face mask is there any point in wearing a scarf (folded over a number of times) or is this useless? Would this be better than nothing at all? I ask because it appears many basic face masks do not contain any sort of filter and so their effectiveness must be in doubt.

Here's a bunch of links on which materials have what filter effect, how to clean them (or better not), etc. Maybe useful to some.

[smartairfilters.com]
[smartairfilters.com]
[smartairfilters.com]
[smartairfilters.com]

My homemade masks are made of two layers of dish cloth (which in the links is said to be at least as good as a surgical mask) and I have no problem breathing when wearing them. (Note, however, that in the linked stuff nothing is said about the weaving densitiy of the dish cloth they tested.)

Thanks doitywoik, most informative!

The Finnish government fell victim to a scam and bought millions of € worth of masks that were inadequate!

[yle.fi]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-11 12:33 by Topi.

Quote
wonderboy
I'm curious as to how media in other countries is treating their own governments.
It's no surprise here that Trump is blamed for everything, and he deserves quite a bit.
Are the Italians and French, etc upset at their leadership?

NO. No. NO. I do NOT want a blame game on politics here. Any such posts will be deleted. This is the time for facts about the virus, not blame game of quotes, where politicians blame others for their own faults.

Bjornulf

Quote
NICOS

Quote
shattered1978

Quote
wonderboy

Quote
MisterDDDD
Apple and Google team up to ‘contact trace’ the coronavirus
"OAKLAND, Calif. — In one of the most far-ranging attempts to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus, Apple and Google said they were building software into smartphones that would tell people if they were recently in contact with someone who was infected with the virus."
[www.seattletimes.com]

Uh, oh. Big tech and big government really want to track citizens. Once they do this, we won't be able to stop them from tracking all our activities.

They already do.

Since two weeks I leave my mobile phone at home if I go out shopping.

Same here. I never carry my mobile phone outside my house. My wife is freaking out about it, but fact is the mobile phone is one of the main sources of infection and virus. I am not the president. If someone need to talk to me then I will be home sooner or later anyway.

I hardly leave home these days anyway. Still, it would have been helpful if I had brought my mobile phone when I had my biking accident breaking my hip back in September last year, but that is life. You only live once.

Bjornulf

Coronavirus vaccine could be ready by September (The Times, UK - Saturday April 11 2020)

Leading scientist ‘80 per cent’ sure drug will work

A vaccine against coronavirus could be ready as soon as September, the British scientist leading one of the world’s most advanced efforts has said.

Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, told The Times she was “80 per cent confident” that the vaccine being developed by her team would work, with human trials due to begin in the next fortnight.

The government signalled that it would be willing to fund the manufacture of millions of doses in advance if results looked promising. This would allow it to be available immediately to the public if it were proven to work.

“I think there’s a high chance that it will work based on other things that we have done with this type of vaccine,” she said. “It’s not just a hunch and as every week goes by we have more data to look at . . . I would go for 80 per cent, that’s my personal view.”

Bjornulf

It looks like Washington state will pass 10,000 official cases this weekend. Given the lack of adequate testing, the number is probably much higher. The stay at home order looks like it is working to whatever extent but the governor is already talking about possibly extending it past the current May 4 end date. The weather in Seattle has been good & will be for the next week or so it looks like. Given that, the mayor has closed the most popular parks & beaches totally for Easter weekend. Violators who do not move on when directed by the police face a possible stiff fine.

Quote
crholmstrom
It looks like Washington state will pass 10,000 official cases this weekend. Given the lack of adequate testing, the number is probably much higher. The stay at home order looks like it is working to whatever extent but the governor is already talking about possibly extending it past the current May 4 end date. The weather in Seattle has been good & will be for the next week or so it looks like. Given that, the mayor has closed the most popular parks & beaches totally for Easter weekend. Violators who do not move on when directed by the police face a possible stiff fine.

Washington state must have been in lock down for a month soon, right?

When looking at the numbers of deaths per million population, it seems that Washington state have been able to protect the population quite strongly, as compared to NY, NJ, Louisiana and Michigan. I hope these numbers are looked into before they start opening up again.

[www.worldometers.info]



Bjornulf

California’s coronavirus death toll is way below New York’s. Here’s why (Los Angeles Times - APRIL 10, 2020)

By late Friday, California had reported 598 deaths over two and a half months, fewer than New York experienced in a single day Wednesday, when 799 in the Empire State died from COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. California has averaged just under 45 deaths per day over the last week, with no spike in fatalities.

...

Seven counties in the greater San Francisco Bay Area ordered residents to “shelter in place” and all but essential businesses to close at midnight on March 16, a day when the number of coronavirus deaths in California doubled from six to 12. Three days later, Gov. Gavin Newsom extended the order to the entire state, with the total death toll at just 19.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo made a similar order on March 20, but it did not take effect until Sunday, March 22, at 8 p.m. By then, his state already had recorded at least 150 deaths. That action still preceded lockdowns across much of the nation. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis didn’t impose a stay-at-home order until April 1.

...

Bjornulf

Quote
bv

Washington state must have been in lock down for a month soon, right?

When looking at the numbers of deaths per million population, it seems that Washington state have been able to protect the population quite strongly, as compared to NY, NJ, Louisiana and Michigan. I hope these numbers are looked into before they start opening up again.

[www.worldometers.info]

Schools have been closed since March 13th.
Official stay at home order was Mar 23rd, but most of us already were.

Washington has done well considering it had the first case confirmed in the US on Jan. 20th resulting in the first outbreak here.
One thing I know for certain, our Governor based on advise from experts, not the federal government, will decide when we stop the stay at home orders etc.,
as is the case with a lot of states.

Bill Maher is correct. These pandemics will never stop until we close down the "Wet" markets in China. As Maher stated on his show the other night - This is had nothing to do with "Chinese Racism."

"If we America knew that "Hot Pockets" (USA Snack Food) caused pandemical Flu - we would stop it immediately. "

He is correct- even mentioned the following "Bird Flu, Asian Flu, SARS, etc.."

You have to defeat the source of the problem, which in this case, derives from the "Wet" markets in China that sell exotic animals laced viral properties.

If not these pandemics will happen again and again

Quote
Chris Fountain
Bill Maher is correct. These pandemics will never stop until we close down the "Wet" markets in China. As Maher stated on his show the other night - This is had nothing to do with "Chinese Racism."

"If we America knew that "Hot Pockets" (USA Snack Food) caused pandemical Flu - we would stop it immediately. "

He is correct- even mentioned the following "Bird Flu, Asian Flu, SARS, etc.."

You have to defeat the source of the problem, which in this case, derives from the "Wet" markets in China that sell exotic animals laced viral properties.

If not these pandemics will happen again and again

While this is true once the word is out, if the powers that be lallygag around as they did this time, precious lives will be lost AGAIN. The ball was dropped big time. Why is this fact omitted and ignored?

Interesting article about Greece handling Coronavirus.

[www.bloomberg.com]

There are "wet markets", i.e. markets where they sell living animals, all over the world, not just in China. Also, Afrika, South America, and the rest of Asia in general. People need food. If these markets are banned, they will still exist out of sight from the authorities.

Ban wildlife markets to avert pandemics, says UN biodiversity chief (The Guardian UK - Mon 6 Apr 2020)

“It would be good to ban the live animal markets as China has done and some countries. But we should also remember you have communities, particularly from low-income rural areas, particularly in Africa, which are dependent on wild animals to sustain the livelihoods of millions of people.

“So unless we get alternatives for these communities, there might be a danger of opening up illegal trade in wild animals which currently is already leading us to the brink of extinction for some species.

Bjornulf

Quote
bv
There are "wet markets", i.e. markets where they sell living animals, all over the world, not just in China. Also, Afrika, South America, and the rest of Asia in general. People need food. If these markets are banned, they will still exist out of sight from the authorities.

Ban wildlife markets to avert pandemics, says UN biodiversity chief (The Guardian UK - Mon 6 Apr 2020)

“It would be good to ban the live animal markets as China has done and some countries. But we should also remember you have communities, particularly from low-income rural areas, particularly in Africa, which are dependent on wild animals to sustain the livelihoods of millions of people.

“So unless we get alternatives for these communities, there might be a danger of opening up illegal trade in wild animals which currently is already leading us to the brink of extinction for some species.

I have heard that the Chinese authorities are quite good at 're-educating' people en masse and imposing it's will ................maybe it should put this expertise into practice in this area of wet markets.
The last 4 problematic viruses have all come from Chinese wet markets.

Quote: wikipedia:....Avian flu and SARS
Influenza virus can change by genetic reassortment as it travels between different hosts in its range. The presence of different intermediate hosts in close proximity makes wet markets a high risk environment for such zoonoses. ..
The H5N1 avian flu, SARS, and COVID-19 outbreaks can be traced to keeping live animals in wet markets where the potential for zoonotic transmission is greatly increased.[28][29][23] In April 2020, scientist Peter Daszak described a Chinese wet market as follows: "it is a bit of shock to go to a wildlife market and see this huge diversity of animals live in cages on top of each other with a pile of guts that have been pulled out of an animal and thrown on the floor [...] These are perfect places for viruses to spread .. [en.wikipedia.org]


Likewise in other parts of the world, methods of feeding populations have to change and where necessary under the auspices of the UN. All you need is a undefeatable virus to emerge and that's it. Curtains for the human race while we pander to 'cultural' sensitivities.
No, these types of practices need to be curtailed and the people who practice them need to evolve out of their careless abuse of animals.

Our Exploitation of Wildlife Is Directly Causing More Viruses to Spread to Humans, Study Shows - [www.sciencealert.com]

Just my opinion of course............



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-11 18:11 by EddieByword.

Quote
bv
California’s coronavirus death toll is way below New York’s. Here’s why (Los Angeles Times - APRIL 10, 2020)

By late Friday, California had reported 598 deaths over two and a half months, fewer than New York experienced in a single day Wednesday, when 799 in the Empire State died from COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. California has averaged just under 45 deaths per day over the last week, with no spike in fatalities.

...

Seven counties in the greater San Francisco Bay Area ordered residents to “shelter in place” and all but essential businesses to close at midnight on March 16, a day when the number of coronavirus deaths in California doubled from six to 12. Three days later, Gov. Gavin Newsom extended the order to the entire state, with the total death toll at just 19.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo made a similar order on March 20, but it did not take effect until Sunday, March 22, at 8 p.m. By then, his state already had recorded at least 150 deaths. That action still preceded lockdowns across much of the nation. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis didn’t impose a stay-at-home order until April 1.

...

Yes but for all we know it's a "ticking timebomb" everywhere until "herd immunity" has been acquired. Presumably it is a lot higher in NY than in California or Washington at this time. Obviously it was helpful to "flatten the curve" and prevent ICUs from being swamped but what's next...With Italy apparently estimating "immunity" (no one knows for how long) at 15% it's not looking very encouraging for anyone.

Not sure about the US or other countries but in France it does not appear that anyone who "the doctors" thought could go into ICU and recover and live has been denied access but that's always going to be a tough call and not sure any studies in the future will be able to say if that's true or not.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

There is no research saying that it is possible to get "herd immunity" from the Corona virus. With the annual flu, it change every year, so you need a different shot every year. Sure it might be possible that you do not get the same covid-19 disease two times. May be it is milder the 2nd time. Still, no virolog has been stating anything specific on the subject, simply because this is a new virus. It has been around for less than half a year. Nobody knows.

Also, if USA were to get "herd immunity", it would take 1% to 2% of the population, i.e. 3-6 million people dead, demanding several million hospital beds, while there are less than one million hospital beds in USA in total. This is all re Gov. Cuomo of NY, at his press conference today.

I don't think any state any place in the world is looking for "herd immunity", not even Sweden. It is all a matter of keeping life going, without having the medical system in overload.

Bjornulf

Now U.S. officials are expecting the death toll to be closer to 60,000. That's a long way from the millions originally bandied about.
I think that by the end of this everybody will claim victory -- those that champion lockdowns and those that believe this was an overreaction.
The reports and science of this are changing all the time. We have to be careful not to get wedded to specific reports, even if they come from reputable news organizations. I often pay more attention to the people on the fringes, because mainstream scientists, government and media tend to move in lockstep. It doesn't matter in society if you are wrong, as long as everybody else in the majority is wrong, too.

Quote
wonderboy
Now U.S. officials are expecting the death toll to be closer to 60,000. That's a long way from the millions originally bandied about.
I think that by the end of this everybody will claim victory -- those that champion lockdowns and those that believe this was an overreaction.
The reports and science of this are changing all the time. We have to be careful not to get wedded to specific reports, even if they come from reputable news organizations. I often pay more attention to the people on the fringes, because mainstream scientists, government and media tend to move in lockstep. It doesn't matter in society if you are wrong, as long as everybody else in the majority is wrong, too.

The estimate of 60,000 deaths is based on the fact that there is a close down in all major U.S. areas, as present. The estimates of 100,000 - 240,000 deaths, from the mouth of the U.S. president a week or so ago, was based on estimates before most states did shut down.

I think it is great news to see that 300+ million people in USA are able to move in the same direction, respecting the shut down, saving a lot of lives. Congratulation!

If there is an early re-open, from the current shut-down, then the estimates will no longer be 60,000. They will go high.

Bjornulf

Well what are you going to do ? Go to China to count the dead people ? How about Russia then with its 106 dead ? What matters is that something can be figured going forward, what it is I'm not sure...

Well if there's no "herd immunity" and no vaccine, there's clearly no way out of this. It does seem that in the past most (all ?) pandemics did "expire" thanks to some type of hear immunity, hopefully it will be the case once again. In the meantime a lot more people are going to die unfortunately and without a vaccine it's just going to be spread out over more time in some areas than others.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Singapore has been rightly praised for its quick and decisive action as regards COVID 19. It has also been recognised as an economic success story and blessed with a stable if somewhat authoritarian Government.And perhaps (as far as we aware)one that seems to be reasonably free of corruption.
However, behind the success and glamour is a darker side. Namely, the living conditions of many of its migrant workers.
These workers, as in many other countries (parts of the Middle Ezst for example)are vital to thriving economies and yet time and again housing is seen as a low priority.
It appears that many workers are required to live in dormitories, 12 men sleeping in a room and having shared facilities is the norm. Its not so far removed from cruise ships, as has been said, which is another area where clusters can develop and spread very quickly.
Its an indictment on high income countries. Singapore has the infratructure to address the situation and a partial lockdown has now been imposed.
In poorer countries...what chance of addressing the problem?

BV, with all due respect, you are using your forum -- a Rolling Stones forum -- to promote your views on this crisis and using the spectre of getting kicked off the board to influence the discussion.
This idea that 3 to 6 million Americans would die without draconian measures was a hypothesis that has not been proven. A nation like Italy that was not prepared and had a vulnerable population has nowhere near those numbers. There are so many questions about this virus and the response that have not been answered yet.
The virus is simply not acting like the doomsdayers said it would.
Again, let us not get too attached to our theories until there is more evidence.
We still know very little about this virus and every day we learn things that contradict what were taken as fact in earlier days.