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Nate
Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.
The answer is simple it would cost vast amounts of money to do so and the healthcare systems have the capacity to deal with a normal winter.
With a very few exceptions around the world governments do not care about people they care about money.

Nate

"People" and "money" are essentially the same thing. No money, no resources available to care for and support the people.

A government that is caring about money is a government that is caring about people.

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MileHigh

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Nate
Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.
The answer is simple it would cost vast amounts of money to do so and the healthcare systems have the capacity to deal with a normal winter.
With a very few exceptions around the world governments do not care about people they care about money.

Nate

"People" and "money" are essentially the same thing. No money, no resources available to care for and support the people.

A government that is caring about money is a government that is caring about people.

Sorry MileHigh, my experience with dealing with governmental/local governmental administrations over many decades (I also worked some time among them, not being an official administrator) is not like what you say. In particular the "caring about people" part. Yes, there are people there that have a social view toward life and people as such, but I am afraid they are a minority. Personal careers for one, and dealing with money the wrong way are leading.
There was a high spread case over many years of local governments experimenting with tax money very irresponsibly. In order to score 1% more interest they choose for insecure banks f.i. (A lot of tax money got lost that way). Instead of spending enough money for the public interest (infrastructure, additional school (educational) support of different kinds, like handicapped kids, etc. and so on, they speculated.
No, I don't find your statement correct in that sense for a painful majority of governmental way of thinking.

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Nate

Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.

Because COVID-19 is three times deadlier than the Influenza flu (in hospitalised patients, according to a new study) - [www.Euronews.com] .

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Irix

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Nate

Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.

Because COVID-19 is three times deadlier than the Influenza flu (in hospitalised patients, according to a new study) - [www.Euronews.com] .

Yes but the flu can still be deadly to many people so if we shut all bars,restaurants,non essential shops etc and reduce social interactions every winter then we can reduce the number of people who die from the normal flu.

Nate

Flu vs covid-19

Do we really have to have this discussion still, almost one year into the pandemic?

The flu: If you have ever had the annual flu (influenza), then you know it is bad, even if you are young. Your body feels like shit, and you do know for sure you are sick. Your would never go to work at a nursing home, or any other place. You would not take the metro. You would stay at home with your fever and a terrible body.

Covid-19: If you have covid-19, and you are young, you may not know you are sick at all. You may go to work as usual, at a nursing home, in a bar, in a pub, or other places, where you will transmit the fatal covid-19 to other people, who might get really sick, or die.

The elderly, those with cancer, heart operations, or other risk factors, may take the annual flu shot, and be protected that way. However, there is no protection against covid-19 yet.

If you do still think covid-19 is just like the flu, then you must have been living on another planet all year.

Bjornulf

Just to be clear I was in no way suggesting that covid 19 is comparable to the flu.I do know that covid is significantly more dangerous than the flu.
I am in complete agreement with the need to shut things down when the healthcare system is in danger of being overwhelmed.We don’t have to look that far back to remember the horrific scenes in Italy at the beginning of the pandemic in Europe when people were laying in hospital corridors dying because there was no beds or ventilators for them.

My point was that governments only shut things down when they knew healthcare systems would be overstretched and not able to cope.
It is not in any governments financial interest to shut economies down it is a last resort in an emergency.
Like it or not it is money that makes the world go round not compassion.

Nate



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-20 19:00 by Nate.

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bv
Covid-19: If you have covid-19, and you are young, you may not know you are sick at all. You may go to work as usual, at a nursing home, in a bar, in a pub, or other places, where you will transmit the fatal covid-19 to other people, who might get really sick, or die.

A 20 year old man died because of covid-19. He had only light symptoms, recovered, went back to his friends playing football again etc. And one morning he didn't wake up - he has died. The reason: the virus has attacked his heart. The man didn't noticed that, no doctor checked this because the man was feeling well again. So take care about covid-19.

New covid-19 mutant spreading fast in UK - Flights from UK banned - EU emergency meeting today on the matter.

New coronavirus strain up to 70% more transmissible, government says (Independent)

Covid: Ireland, Italy, Belgium and Netherlands ban flights from UK (BBC)

Bjornulf

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Nate

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MAF

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Nate
The Netherlands has just banned all passenger flights from the U.K. and no doubt more countries will follow given the news of the new strain of the virus.
Apparently this new strain has already been around a while in which case it will already be in multiple countries.This could be the reason why the USA has seen a surge in cases recently.

Nate

Belgium has just banned all flights and trains from U.K.

Italy just announced they will do the same.

Nate

Other countries announced the same: Germany, Austria - maybe the rest of the continent will follow. Meanwhile warning in the U.K.: The virus "is out of control".

I was wondering yesterday if the new vaccines will work against certain new variations/mutations of the virus, i.e. can the new variations mutate to the point of being immune to the vaccine.
Can't find the article I read, but fortunately it said that certain key elements remain the same within all coronavirus mutations/variations, and it is those that the vaccine targets - up until now anyways.
Not sure if the virus can evolve/mutate even further to the point of being immune to the vaccine, but worrisome when new mutations get bad enough that entire countries have to shut down again due to the rapid spread.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-20 19:57 by Hairball.

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MileHigh

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daspyknows

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bleedingman
FDA investigating allergic reactions to Pfizer vaccine reported in multiple states

"I think we'll be looking at all the data we can from each of these reactions to sort out exactly what happened, and we'll also be looking to try to understand which component of the vaccine might be helping to produce them," Marks said.

[www.msn.com]

Third allergic reaction to COVID-19 vaccine reported in Alaska

"Anaphylaxis is a rare but expected potential side effect that is treatable and does not have long term health implications like COVID," said the employee, who wishes to remain anonymous, in the statement. "I would get the vaccine and recommend it to anyone, despite my reaction, to help our country get immunized which is needed for the health of all Americans, for the economy, get families hugging again, for getting children back to schools, and to get the country on the other side of this pandemic."

[www.msn.com]

The belief it has nothing to do with the mRNA but an allergic reaction to a chenical in the vaccine polyethylene glycol.

[chicago.suntimes.com]

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

It's unfortunate but it's tough luck for the people that are allergic to the normally benign ingredients in the vaccines. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Agreed. If .001% of those who take it have a minor allergic reaction to getting Covid and having a 1% chance of dying . Odds higher of dying of Covid than having an allergic reaction to the vax. Lets be real here.

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Nate

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Irix

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Nate

Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.

Because COVID-19 is three times deadlier than the Influenza flu (in hospitalised patients, according to a new study) - [www.Euronews.com] .

Yes but the flu can still be deadly to many people so if we shut all bars,restaurants,non essential shops etc and reduce social interactions every winter then we can reduce the number of people who die from the normal flu.

Nate

There is a vaccine for the flu. In the years since I started taking that vaccine I have yet to get the flu. Prior to that every other year at least. What will be different now is people will call in sick. Many times I worked through the flu likely infecting others.

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MileHigh

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Nate
Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.
The answer is simple it would cost vast amounts of money to do so and the healthcare systems have the capacity to deal with a normal winter.
With a very few exceptions around the world governments do not care about people they care about money.

Nate

"People" and "money" are essentially the same thing. No money, no resources available to care for and support the people.

A government that is caring about money is a government that is caring about people.

Not meaning to get political but that is not necessarily the case. I can think of a few that siurely do not.

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Hairball
I was wondering yesterday if the new vaccines will work against certain new variations/mutations of the virus, i.e. can the new variations mutate to the point of being immune to the vaccine.
Can't find the article I read, but fortunately it said that certain key elements remain the same within all coronavirus mutations/variations, and it is those that the vaccine targets - up until now anyways.
Not sure if the virus can evolve/mutate even further to the point of being immune to the vaccine, but worrisome when new mutations get bad enough that entire countries have to shut down again due to the rapid spread.

My understanding is yes. The new vaccines target a specific protein in the virus. As long as that doesn't change the vaccines should work. This vaccine is based on what they were developing for SARS and MERS that was started 17 years ago. I am not sure about the other vaccines as they use different technologies.

I believe there is a 60 minutes story about this tonight.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-20 20:18 by daspyknows.

The Coronavirus Is Mutating. What Does That Mean for Us? (NY Times Dec 20, 2020)

The good news is that the technology used in the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines is much easier to adjust and update than conventional vaccines. The new vaccines also generate a massive immune response, so the coronavirus may need many mutations over years before the vaccines must be tweaked, Dr. Bedford said.

Bjornulf

New covid-19 mutant already found in Denmark (9 persons), Italy (1), Netherlands (1) and Australia (1).

This is very very very bad news.

I think with the current state you can do lockdowns and then ease up a little bit. But if the rumours are true this means lockdown till herd immunity due vaccination is reached to prevent the healthcare system to collapse.

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MAF
New covid-19 mutant already found in Denmark (9 persons), Italy (1), Netherlands (1) and Australia (1).

There are soms strange things about this virus. I do think the mutant version is already wide spread. Must be.

The Mink situation has been very weird all along. Pretty sure there is more to this story.

Here in the UK, Christmas will not be anywhere like the same as last year for anyone who is living in a Tier 4 area especially.
I for one will not be going to my sister's house for the usual 3 or 4 days and only about 5 miles away here in Epsom.

Like so many people this Christmas,I will be on my own in my flat for the day, and will just see the other residents here for a chat with social distancing in the hallway,communal lounge or garden area.
Will have a few chats on the phone and still get exercise outside.
Our dear 94 year old Mum is in a nearby care home and being well looked after there, so that is our main concern above everything else.
Let's hope 2021 will eventually be a turning point sooner rather than later.

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crawdaddy
Let's hope 2021 will eventually be a turning point sooner rather than later.

Yep! Stay safe and take care.

Meanwhile:
Passengers arriving from U.K. yesterday evening on the continent had to stay overnight in the airports waiting for the results of their tests - a few have corona.
83 persons with new corona virus in New South Wales/Australia.
The new corona virus has arrived at many places.

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crawdaddy
Here in the UK, Christmas will not be anywhere like the same as last year for anyone who is living in a Tier 4 area especially.
I for one will not be going to my sister's house for the usual 3 or 4 days and only about 5 miles away here in Epsom.

Like so many people this Christmas,I will be on my own in my flat for the day, and will just see the other residents here for a chat with social distancing in the hallway,communal lounge or garden area.
Will have a few chats on the phone and still get exercise outside.
Our dear 94 year old Mum is in a nearby care home and being well looked after there, so that is our main concern above everything else.
Let's hope 2021 will eventually be a turning point sooner rather than later.

I feel with you, crawdaddy. My oldest daughter and her husband live in Ealing Broadway and they tried all kinds of ways to come and see us for Christmas in NL.
I told them, that living in the 21st Century has at least one great blessing, Internet. We can chat (live video) as long as we want using applications like Skype or Viber (or any other) and it doesn't even cost you any extra. On a big computer screen it feels very close. We can't hug anyway thanks to Covid-19, so smiles and laughs will do very well. After so many real Christmasses it's a minor offer this time.
Yesterday I got a phone call from a long time (Stones fan) friend. He told me that it's over for him and wanted to talk with me. They sent him home from hospital with the message "there is nothing we can do for you anymore"(not corona related). I knew he was in a very bad shape and we had talks before. We spent about 45 minutes talking (even had some laughs about past memories), but it was a very hard goodbye-for-ever. Still, I feel good to have helped him with this wish.

Well, from today on the daylight time will slowly increase and the dark days will soon be over. Hopefully for everybody.

"The European Medicines Agency (EMA) has given the green light for the use of the COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer/BioNTech. The EMA's Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use recommended approval of the vaccine. The final decision must now be made by the European Commission, whose approval is considered certain." - [www.Tagesschau.de] .

[www.wbur.org]


I find it hard to accept that rapists should get the vaccine before their victims....

very hard.

The European Commission authorises Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine against COVID-19 - [EC.Europa.eu] .

"The Commission, the Member States and the company are now working towards the delivery of the first doses on 26 December, so that the EU vaccination days can start on 27 – 28 – 29 December."

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stickyfingers101
[www.wbur.org]


I find it hard to accept that rapists should get the vaccine before their victims....

very hard.

I have no problem protecting essential/front line workers ahead of people less vulnerable to succumbing to the disease.

These facilities are similar to nursing homes, where a spread is more likely to happen than other work places.
The corrections staff deserve a safe working environment, and the prisoners were sentenced to time, not death.

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Nate

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Irix

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Nate

Then why not shut everything down every winter in order to reduce the number of people who die from other respiratory diseases.

Because COVID-19 is three times deadlier than the Influenza flu (in hospitalised patients, according to a new study) - [www.Euronews.com] .

Yes but the flu can still be deadly to many people so if we shut all bars,restaurants,non essential shops etc and reduce social interactions every winter then we can reduce the number of people who die from the normal flu.

Nate

The "normal flu". Really.

Influenza viruses evolve much slower than coronaviruses do. Probably the only thing "normal" about influenza is that generally it doesn't kill a lot of people.

Most people that get a flu virus end up getting very sick and staying home. It only gets spread when they are around people before they know they have it, especially if they are arrogant and don't cover their mouths when they cough, and it makes them sick. Influenza viruses are a human animal virus, SARSCOV-2 is not.

That's a huge difference. There are a lot of people who think that just because they didn't get very sick from COVID that it's over for them. COVID will be a time bomb for a lot of people.

Herd immunity with humans is a myth.

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MisterDDDD

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stickyfingers101
[www.wbur.org]


I find it hard to accept that rapists should get the vaccine before their victims....

very hard.

I have no problem protecting essential/front line workers ahead of people less vulnerable to succumbing to the disease.

These facilities are similar to nursing homes, where a spread is more likely to happen than other work places.
The corrections staff deserve a safe working environment, and the prisoners were sentenced to time, not death.

I mean no offense, but you need to check your statistics.

First of all, only 1738 people have died from Coronavirus in US prisons....compared to around 150,000 people in Old Folks Homes

Second, COVID is not a death-sentence - stating otherwise is alarmist misinformation....90%+ of people survive

Third, around 80% of prisoners are under age 50....the least likely to die from the virus.

Point: They are NOT high risk. Certainly not for DEATH. And they are certainly not higher risk than people with pre-existing conditions and/or are over 65+....both of whom have to wait until Phase II....

In other words, "listen to the science"....

If the statistical scientific facts don't convince you of how backward, offensive and misguided this policy is....then I guess we can simply agree to disagree about the "essential" nature of child-molesters and rapists over teachers, grocery-store workers, sanitation workers or public health workers....

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stickyfingers101

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MisterDDDD

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stickyfingers101
[www.wbur.org]


I find it hard to accept that rapists should get the vaccine before their victims....

very hard.

I have no problem protecting essential/front line workers ahead of people less vulnerable to succumbing to the disease.

These facilities are similar to nursing homes, where a spread is more likely to happen than other work places.
The corrections staff deserve a safe working environment, and the prisoners were sentenced to time, not death.

I mean no offense, but you need to check your statistics.

First of all, only 1738 people have died from Coronavirus in US prisons....compared to around 150,000 people in Old Folks Homes

Second, COVID is not a death-sentence - stating otherwise is alarmist misinformation....90%+ of people survive

Third, around 80% of prisoners are under age 50....the least likely to die from the virus.

Point: They are NOT high risk. Certainly not for DEATH. And they are certainly not higher risk than people with pre-existing conditions and/or are over 65+....both of whom have to wait until Phase II....

In other words, "listen to the science"....

If the statistical scientific facts don't convince you of how backward, offensive and misguided this policy is....then I guess we can simply agree to disagree about the "essential" nature of child-molesters and rapists over teachers, grocery-store workers, sanitation workers or public health workers....

No statistics to check as my comments were original, and observational. People die from the virus (not saying they would all die). Correctional staff shouldn't need to have "taking care of and interacting with covid patients" added to their already high risk job, regardless of the percentages etc. They work in an enclosed literally confined space, of course its more prone to outbreaks than park rangers et al.
Using your logic we shouldn't worry about the rapists because they represent only a small percentage of inmates



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-21 22:55 by MisterDDDD.

Please do NOT start a discussion on priority of vaccination here. It is politics, and any more comments about prisoners or black or white or young or old or whoever will get the vaccine first or last will be deleted, as they are bound to spiral rapidly into hate comments.

Bjornulf

As I already explained earlier in this thread I was not comparing the two different illnesses I’m very well aware that covid is much more dangerous than the regular flu and for that reason I have avoided meeting with people for the vast majority of this year.I do have a very young niece who has just turned one year old.She has already been admitted to hospital three times this year with breathing difficulties so I am very cautious regarding covid 19 and I do take it very seriously.

My point was simply trying to explain that these lockdowns have not been done to save lives they have had to be introduced to save governments the embarrassment of their healthcare systems arriving at breaking point.

What government wants a bunch of non tax paying retirees hanging around any longer than they have to.

Nate