May be Sweden is doing the right thing. May be not. Their medical leader Tegnell is saying this now:

Tegnell: Inte alls övertygad om att Sverige gjort rätt (Aftonbladet May 1, 2020)

(English: "Not at all convinced that Sweden has done the right thing")

They are currently at an intensive care capacity of 30% i.e. 70% of hospital intensive care beds and ventilators are taken, according to the most recent press conference Wednesday. May be they get immunity, for how long nobody knows. Half a year? One year? Two years? We don't know.

They are balancing on a fine line, and the next two weeks will demand a lot, if they want to avoid overcrowded hospitals. When the hospital capacity is closer to 100%, you have to start moving patients to other hospitals, by car or by plane, and you have to put priority i.e. decide who is getting intensive care.

Bjornulf

That's true. It's mainly Stockholm that is being hit hard. And Anders Tegnell is being more and more questioned. They failed in protecting the "older, older" which they had as a number one prio.
Still to early to judge things though. We don't know how long this is going to last. And there are factors here which can't be discussed (pc). I understand that. The key factor is the capacity of the
hospitals though. Which must be maintained.

Quote
MisterDDDD

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby
Seems like it worked and is working in Sweden per the World Health Organization.

And yes I think it will work.

It is up to each person. Those who choose to venture out and about and don't do it safely then they will pay the price.

For those that do. Life goes on.

You cant punish everyone because of the people that don't get it.

You cant take away my car because my neighbor speeds or drives drunk.

You have to look out for number 1.

And it is time to get the show on the road.

This isn't "punishment".
This is everyone doing their part to stop the spread.

News flash- You are amongst the people that "don't get it".
Not rocket science at this point, people spread this virus person to person,
By continuing the isolation and distancing measures we can and are reducing the infected and death rate considerably,

Additionally, by "getting the show on the road" prematurely, we are almost guaranteeing that we will be starting this process again from near the starting line.

If you go out in public. Follow the guidelines be safe do what you have been told then you can still go out and also do you part to stop the spread.

Its time to let people make their own decisions.

Quote
bv

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Seems like it worked and is working in Sweden per the World Health Organization.

You do not get it.

This is what Dr. Mike Ryan, WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday: There are “lessons to be learned” from the way Sweden “has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate.”

Read Washington Post, they have a more detailed reference on what he said.

In USA, vigilante demonstrators are now showing up at Capitol buildings, heavily armed, demonstrating in hundreds to open up ahead of what science and virus numbers are allowing for. They are applauded by the US President. You do not see that in Sweden. In Sweden they follow advice by the health authorities, they do not open up at all, they do in fact close bars and restaurants as they get more crowded now.

FACTS ABOUT SWEDEN and the corona virus today:

The authorities have started to close down bars and restaurants in big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg, because they are overcrowded.

[www.expressen.se]

[www.aftonbladet.se]

References:

No, Sweden Isn't a Miracle Coronavirus Model
Washington Post May 1, 2020)

The World Health Organization’s Swedish flip-flop (New York Post May 1, 2020)

No I totally get it.

The cure is becoming worse that the virus itself. It is destroying families.

If you don't want to get out. DON'T. If you do...be smart get back to life.

If a person is not smart enough to be safe when they go out then they pay the price.


Look ..I choose to stay home. Bars etc are open today where I live. It's been a long time since I had a cold beer a the local smokey bar and watched some local live music.

I would love to do that tonight. I choose not to.

But for those that choose to go.

That is their choice. It is not for me to make their decisions for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 22:28 by jumpontopofmebaby.

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Quote
bv

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Seems like it worked and is working in Sweden per the World Health Organization.

You do not get it.

This is what Dr. Mike Ryan, WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday: There are “lessons to be learned” from the way Sweden “has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate.”

Read Washington Post, they have a more detailed reference on what he said.

In USA, vigilante demonstrators are now showing up at Capitol buildings, heavily armed, demonstrating in hundreds to open up ahead of what science and virus numbers are allowing for. They are applauded by the US President. You do not see that in Sweden. In Sweden they follow advice by the health authorities, they do not open up at all, they do in fact close bars and restaurants as they get more crowded now.

FACTS ABOUT SWEDEN and the corona virus today:

The authorities have started to close down bars and restaurants in big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg, because they are overcrowded.

[www.expressen.se]

[www.aftonbladet.se]

References:

No, Sweden Isn't a Miracle Coronavirus Model
Washington Post May 1, 2020)

The World Health Organization’s Swedish flip-flop (New York Post May 1, 2020)

No I totally get it.

The cure is becoming worse that the virus itself. It is destroying families.

If you don't want to get out. DON'T. If you do...be smart get back to life.

If a person is not smart enough to be safe when they go out then they pay the price.


Look ..I choose to stay home. Bars etc are open today where I live. It's been a long time since I had a cold beer a the local smokey bar and watched some local live music.

I would love to do that tonight. I choose not to.

But for those that choose to go.

That is their choice. It is not for me to make their decisions for them.

But their decisions will impact you ultimately. Dr. Fauci CLEARLY said you must have 14 days of declining numbers before you go to PHASE 1. That is not what is happening here and consequently, there will be a larger risk than there could be.

Quote
steffialicia

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Quote
bv

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Seems like it worked and is working in Sweden per the World Health Organization.

You do not get it.

This is what Dr. Mike Ryan, WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday: There are “lessons to be learned” from the way Sweden “has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate.”

Read Washington Post, they have a more detailed reference on what he said.

In USA, vigilante demonstrators are now showing up at Capitol buildings, heavily armed, demonstrating in hundreds to open up ahead of what science and virus numbers are allowing for. They are applauded by the US President. You do not see that in Sweden. In Sweden they follow advice by the health authorities, they do not open up at all, they do in fact close bars and restaurants as they get more crowded now.

FACTS ABOUT SWEDEN and the corona virus today:

The authorities have started to close down bars and restaurants in big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg, because they are overcrowded.

[www.expressen.se]

[www.aftonbladet.se]

References:

No, Sweden Isn't a Miracle Coronavirus Model
Washington Post May 1, 2020)

The World Health Organization’s Swedish flip-flop (New York Post May 1, 2020)

No I totally get it.

The cure is becoming worse that the virus itself. It is destroying families.

If you don't want to get out. DON'T. If you do...be smart get back to life.

If a person is not smart enough to be safe when they go out then they pay the price.


Look ..I choose to stay home. Bars etc are open today where I live. It's been a long time since I had a cold beer a the local smokey bar and watched some local live music.

I would love to do that tonight. I choose not to.

But for those that choose to go.

That is their choice. It is not for me to make their decisions for them.

But their decisions will impact you ultimately. Dr. Fauci CLEARLY said you must have 14 days of declining numbers before you go to PHASE 1. That is not what is happening here and consequently, there will be a larger risk than there could be.

They wont impact me because I assume everyone has it and I don't want it.

So I watch out for me.

If I get it it is my own fault period.

That was not the case several weeks ago. But now I know it exists. It is highly contagious.

I don't want it so i choose to not put myself in the position to get it.

Some people would rather take the chance and get back to living.

That is their choice and if they are smart and safe then hopefully the dodge the virus.

It is time to let people make their own decisions.

The virus is not a secret anymore and I doubt very seriously there are very many people that don't by now know what they need to do when going out in public



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 22:55 by jumpontopofmebaby.

Quote
Stoneage


And just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean it's "fake news". By the way, there is no such thing as objective news. Everything is biased, more or less. There is more or less
objective news though. In the end it's down to each person to judge for themselves what to believe in. Many will be wrong, some will be right...

That's not true. There are objective news. For example, I read from the news the other day that The Rolling Stones have released a new single called "Living in A Ghost Town". Surely one can claim that this news is biased and serving some political agenda or something, or is fake news, but those having some sort of common sense will quite quickly understand that yep, The Stones actually did do such a thing. In reality. The news were accurate, objectively true.

The idea of that there is not such a thing as objective news - that there are no neutral facts to be reported, no correspondence between the things reported and how the things really are - that everything is "subjective", that is, relative to the agenda by the news agent, or the truth is defined by the latter, is just a typical lazy-thought, fashionable way to serve a populist right-wing political agenda these days. Making 'facts' and 'truth' as relative notions serves some particular purpose by certain people - those of not liking how the things really are in reality.

That of being critical in one's way of learning how to read/interpret the news - to distinguish the good stuff from the bad stuff, facts from bullshit - has nothing to do with it.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 23:34 by Doxa.

Okay, I'll answer that quickly. First of all, the last thing I would do is to serve a right-wing political agenda. What I refer to is the news agencies, newspapers, tv-stations and such. The news distributors. Not the news event itself. Which, of course, can't be subjective (although deciphered subjectively). Whether one likes it or not they all tend to be biased in one direction or another. More or less, of course. Personally, I would trust CNN over Fox News for example. Or SVT and NRK over TV3. It's not always the news event itself but rather the selection of news and the way it's presented. Do you follow me somewhere there, Doxa? Or am I talking Greek?

A rather technical paper by a medical doctor which indicates that corticosteroids are effective in treating this. [www.evms.edu]

"The above pathologies are not novel, although the combined severity in COVID-19 disease is considerable. Our long-standing and more recent experiences show consistently successful treatment if traditional therapeutic principles of early and aggressive intervention is achieved, before the onset of advanced organ failure. It is our collective opinion that the historically high levels of morbidity and mortality from COVID-19 is due to a single factor: the widespread and inappropriate reluctance amongst intensivists to employ anti-inflammatory and anticoagulant treatments, including corticosteroid therapy early in the course of a patient’s hospitalization. It is essential to recognize that it is not the virus that is killing the patient, rather it is the patient’s overactive immune system. The flames of the “cytokine fire” are out of control and need to be extinguished. Providing supportive care (with ventilators that themselves stoke the fire) and waiting for the cytokine fire to burn itself out simply does not work… this approach has FAILED and has led to the death of tens of thousands of patients.

"The systematic failure of critical care systems to adopt corticosteroid therapy resulted from the published recommendations against corticosteroids use by the World Health Organization (WHO), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and the American Thoracic Society (ATS) amongst others. A very recent publication by the Society of Critical Care Medicine and authored one of the members of our group (UM), identified the errors made by these organizations in their analyses of corticosteroid studies based on the findings of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics. Their erroneous recommendation to avoid corticosteroids in the treatment of COVID-19 has led to the development of myriad organ failures which have overwhelmed critical care systems across the world."

Quote
steffialicia

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Quote
bv

Quote
jumpontopofmebaby

Seems like it worked and is working in Sweden per the World Health Organization.

You do not get it.

This is what Dr. Mike Ryan, WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday: There are “lessons to be learned” from the way Sweden “has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate.”

Read Washington Post, they have a more detailed reference on what he said.

In USA, vigilante demonstrators are now showing up at Capitol buildings, heavily armed, demonstrating in hundreds to open up ahead of what science and virus numbers are allowing for. They are applauded by the US President. You do not see that in Sweden. In Sweden they follow advice by the health authorities, they do not open up at all, they do in fact close bars and restaurants as they get more crowded now.

FACTS ABOUT SWEDEN and the corona virus today:

The authorities have started to close down bars and restaurants in big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg, because they are overcrowded.

[www.expressen.se]

[www.aftonbladet.se]

References:

No, Sweden Isn't a Miracle Coronavirus Model
Washington Post May 1, 2020)

The World Health Organization’s Swedish flip-flop (New York Post May 1, 2020)

No I totally get it.

The cure is becoming worse that the virus itself. It is destroying families.

If you don't want to get out. DON'T. If you do...be smart get back to life.

If a person is not smart enough to be safe when they go out then they pay the price.


Look ..I choose to stay home. Bars etc are open today where I live. It's been a long time since I had a cold beer a the local smokey bar and watched some local live music.

I would love to do that tonight. I choose not to.

But for those that choose to go.

That is their choice. It is not for me to make their decisions for them.

But their decisions will impact you ultimately. Dr. Fauci CLEARLY said you must have 14 days of declining numbers before you go to PHASE 1. That is not what is happening here and consequently, there will be a larger risk than there could be.

Perhaps...but, so are people's decisions currently to go to liquor stores...and they have been from the very start.

how is it fair for the gov't to put public health at risk for something as useless (and ultimately harmful) as alcohol, cigarettes and lottery tickets?....

answer: it's not.

if liquor stores aren't "non-essential" then nothing is....

Amazon is also allowed to put millions of workers (and drivers and everyone along the supply-demand chain....and, thus, ultimately everyone) at risk in the name of ANY "non-essential" item you can think of and click on....

Has the gov't put a "ban" on Amazon fulfilling orders of "non-essential" items in the name of "public health?"

No. They have not.

But, my locally-owned brick-and-mortar store can't open and provide me the exact same product Amazon does?

how is that fair?

Quote
MisterDDDD
News flash- You are amongst the people that "don't get it".
Not rocket science at this point, people spread this virus person to person,
By continuing the isolation and distancing measures we can and are reducing the infected and death rate considerably,

Additionally, by "getting the show on the road" prematurely, we are almost guaranteeing that we will be starting this process again from near the starting line.

Objective was flatten the curve. Mission accomplished. YOU can still stay home.

Quote
daspyknows
Please do us all a favor, find someone sick with coronavirus, give them a kiss on their lips and come back at the end of the month and tell us what you think we should do. You really don't get it and you equating this to drunk driving proves your lack of comprehension. If your neighbor is drunk driving and kills you while you are getting the mail you won't need a car.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. The survivability rate for people who contract this damn virus is about 99.6%. So AT MOST the odds of my going out to dinner resulting in the death of someone else from COVID-19 is about .4%. What is the timeline on recovery from a simultaneous loss of job, loss of home, prolonged US recession and/or global depression?

I reject Stay Home Save Lives. I promote Get Outside. Preserve Your Liberty. As a by the way, doing so builds herd immunity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-02 01:40 by StonedInTokyo.

Quote
StonedInTokyo

Quote
daspyknows
Please do us all a favor, find someone sick with coronavirus, give them a kiss on their lips and come back at the end of the month and tell us what you think we should do. You really don't get it and you equating this to drunk driving proves your lack of comprehension. If your neighbor is drunk driving and kills you while you are getting the mail you won't need a car.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. The survivability rate for people who contract this damn virus is about 99.6%. So AT MOST the odds of my going out to dinner resulting in the death of someone else from COVID-19 is about .4%. What is the timeline on recovery from a simultaneous loss of job, loss of home, prolonged US recession and/or global depression?

I reject Stay Home Save Lives. I promote Get Outside. Preserve Your Liberty. As a by the way, doing so builds herd immunity.

I essentially agree the 1st part of this.

add to that - 80% of deaths are people over 65....half of all deaths are in nursing homes ALONE....

Point: chances of death for the majority are very low.

however, I don't entirely agree w/ the 2nd part of your message....I do believe that if one CAN work from home, they should do so...and we should have some "mask" ordinances and limits on #s in businesses at one time for the time being....IMO.

we have to try to keep the # of cases down as much as possible so as to not overwhelm our health care system....but, we can't sacrifice everything else in the name of that.

Everybody in favor of continued closures should ask themselves a simple question: If your boss called tomorrow and said "come into work or lose your job"....what would you do?

Risk Corona? Or guarantee loss of your job?

I certainly will take the risk of Corona over the guarantee of lost job, income and health care (and no guarantee I won't get Corona anyway).

people in Europe may not understand this - but in the US a lot of people's health care is tied to their employment....

The reality for millions right now is virtually identical to the situation I describe....go to work or lose everything....the closure of businesses is going to cost millions (and their workers) their income and their healthcare....and their home....and, and, and....

...and they might get Corona anyway....what's that cost w/ no health care coverage? Answer: A lot.

I simply feel that continued closures are not sustainable (nor are they fair...see my post above).

We can open with some basic regulations which will keep the numbers down as much as possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-02 02:03 by stickyfingers101.

Stay Home, Save Lives...or else we'll start shooting children to death.

[nypost.com]

Everyone's talking about how they can avoid catching the virus, and how they are smart about it and their chances of survival etc.,

More importantly, I believe, is to act like you are the infected person, asymptomatic, and are the one capable of giving it to others.
Others who perhaps aren't in your age bracket, or who are health compromised, that you could infect and be responsible for their death and the continued spread of the disease.

As many, many, people are asymptomatic with this virus, it's a real possibility.
Acting as if you could infect someone ultimately makes you safer.

Quote
StonedInTokyo

Quote
daspyknows
Please do us all a favor, find someone sick with coronavirus, give them a kiss on their lips and come back at the end of the month and tell us what you think we should do. You really don't get it and you equating this to drunk driving proves your lack of comprehension. If your neighbor is drunk driving and kills you while you are getting the mail you won't need a car.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. The survivability rate for people who contract this damn virus is about 99.6%. So AT MOST the odds of my going out to dinner resulting in the death of someone else from COVID-19 is about .4%. What is the timeline on recovery from a simultaneous loss of job, loss of home, prolonged US recession and/or global depression?

I reject Stay Home Save Lives. I promote Get Outside. Preserve Your Liberty. As a by the way, doing so builds herd immunity.

Have you had Covid19? I have. I would not wish it upon anyone I care about. Anyone who seems to talk about a 99.6% survival rate really needs to catch it and see whether they still feel the same way or more effective, see the person who you care most about go through it.

Frankly, I should in theory have immunity so I am at a much lower risk so I can go out. Those who trivialize it like you probably would think differently after having it.

Quote
MisterDDDD
Everyone's talking about how they can avoid catching the virus, and how they are smart about it and their chances of survival etc.,

More importantly, I believe, is to act like you are the infected person, asymptomatic, and are the one capable of giving it to others.
Others who perhaps aren't in your age bracket, or who are health compromised, that you could infect and be responsible for their death and the continued spread of the disease.

As many, many, people are asymptomatic with this virus, it's a real possibility.
Acting as if you could infect someone ultimately makes you safer.

Some people don't get that, but many are just selfish and think their rights to do what they want are more important than the lives of others.

Newsweek had an interesting article regarding Dr. Fauci and the Wuhan lab.

"...last year, the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases, the organization led by Dr. Fauci, funded scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and other institutions for work on gain-of-function research on bat coronaviruses."

"Many scientists have criticized gain of function research, which involves manipulating viruses in the lab to explore their potential for infecting humans, because it creates a risk of starting a pandemic from accidental release."

The project proposal states: "We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential."

"In layman's terms, "spillover potential" refers to the ability of a virus to jump from animals to humans, which requires that the virus be able to attach to receptors in the cells of humans. SARS-CoV-2, for instance, is adept at binding to the ACE2 receptor in human lungs and other organs."

"Dr. Fauci did not respond to Newsweek's requests for comment. NIH responded with a statement that said in part: "Most emerging human viruses come from wildlife, and these represent a significant threat to public health and biosecurity in the US and globally, as demonstrated by the SARS epidemic of 2002-03, and the current COVID-19 pandemic.... scientific research indicates that there is no evidence that suggests the virus was created in a laboratory."

[www.newsweek.com]

Quote
daspyknows
Have you had Covid19? I have. I would not wish it upon anyone I care about. Anyone who seems to talk about a 99.6% survival rate really needs to catch it and see whether they still feel the same way or more effective, see the person who you care most about go through it.

Frankly, I should in theory have immunity so I am at a much lower risk so I can go out. Those who trivialize it like you probably would think differently after having it.

I have reason to believe I did, but it's irrelevant. The COVID-19 boogeyman doesn't scare me anymore than the Ebola boogeyman, the SARS boogeyman, the radon gas boogeyman, the Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine boogeyman, etc. etc. etc. The objective was flatten the curve, not remain hiding in our homes until, when and if a vaccine is developed. The objective is met. An emotional appeal does not resonate with me. YOU can still stay home and post to IORR all day. I and many others have got far better things to do with our lives.

I didn't know Dr Fauci was 79. He's still pretty spry IMHO.

Quote
daspyknows
Some people don't get that, but many are just selfish and think their rights to do what they want are more important than the lives of others.

Weak argument. The social contract that was entered into was to flatten the curve. If people were as selfish as you claim there'd have been no cooperation to begin with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-02 03:38 by StonedInTokyo.

Quote
crholmstrom
I didn't know Dr Fauci was 79. He's still pretty spry IMHO.

He's about to become a lot less spry and lot more quiet as his complicity in this pandemic becomes known.

Quote
StonedInTokyo

Quote
daspyknows
Some people don't get that, but many are just selfish and think their rights to do what they want are more important than the lives of others.

Weak argument. The social contract that was entered into was to flatten the curve. If people were as selfish as you claim there'd have been no cooperation to begin with.

Are you still in Tokyo? Seems like a good place from all I've seen.

Quote
StonedInTokyo

Quote
crholmstrom
I didn't know Dr Fauci was 79. He's still pretty spry IMHO.

He's about to become a lot less spry and lot more quiet as his complicity in this pandemic becomes known.

His complicity? Do tell.

Dr. Fauci...good or evil? He does look like he could be one of the bad guys in a James Bond movie, but on the other hand he looks like a very nice old grandpa who loves his grandkids.
I suppose he could be both at the same time, but I'm leaning towards him being a 100% legit good guy. Or maybe there's a part of him that's like the bumbling idiot played by Jerry Lewis in The Nutty Professor?
If there's any truth to that Newsweek story posted above by bleedingman, well...opinions of him could change...perhaps this is part of the reason why he's being blocked from testifying next week in front of Congress?

_____________________________________________________

Quote
MisterDDDD
...More importantly, I believe, is to act like you are the infected person, asymptomatic, and are the one capable of giving it to others.
Others who perhaps aren't in your age bracket, or who are health compromised, that you could infect and be responsible for their death and the continued spread of the disease.

As many, many, people are asymptomatic with this virus, it's a real possibility.
Acting as if you could infect someone ultimately makes you safer.

Yes, and I approach it from both angles. There's a possibility I could have it without even knowing it being asymptomatic, and could then spread it to others, while at the same time there's the possibility that everyone (except my wife) I come within ten feet of is carrying the disease and could infect theentire universe. Gotta wear a mask and keep up with tsocial distancing - don't want to give it (if I have it), and I certainly don't want to get it!
It's all turning me into a basket case!

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-02 05:12 by Hairball.

I think he's being blocked because he challenges the powers that be.

Quote
steffialicia
I think he's being blocked because he challenges the powers that be.

Blocked (spared?) from testifying before the House. Not "Congress".

Washington state stay at home order extended to May 31 with 4 step reopening strategy starting before then.

stay at home order

Martin County Florida beaches open on Monday -Sunbathing is allowed; however, social distancing will be enforced. Every Florida county is different. However, Governor DeSantis has restricted the hot spot counties of Miami -Dade (Miami), Broward, (Ft' Lauderdale), and Palm Beach, (West Palm Beach).

Quote
crholmstrom
Washington state stay at home order extended to May 31 with 4 step reopening strategy starting before then.

stay at home order

SMART