It doesn't take much googling on the interwebz before you come across something like this:

Musicians who know his work, know that Charlie Watts is not only a spectacular jazz drummer, but one of the most respected in that world.

Is this even remotely true? Charlie is quite possibly my favoritest Stone - more for his persona than his musicianship, admittedly - but is there actually a universe remotely close to ours in which his drumming could be mentioned in the same breath as Elvin Jones, Max Roach, Art Blakey, Makaya McCraven, Tyshawn Sorey, or really any of the guys on a list like this.

I'm down with Charlie being a jazz aficionado and even preferring that music to the stuff he's made his living at ... but can he in any realistic sense be considered even a decent "jazz drummer."

[Full disclosure: I've only listened to a bit of his side trips, the ABCD stuff, some of the big band things, etc., so am not comprehensive in my familiarity with Charlie's non-Stones drumming.]

No, it's simply not true. I'm no jazz expert, but Charlie is merely a passable jazz drummer at most. As you said, he's more of an aficionado who has the resources and recognition to play in his off time with some very good musicians.

He's fine with brushes, but no one would rate him anywhere close to the greats.

He loves jazz and grew up listening to the jazz on the radio, and got particularly into bebop. Charlie Parker, Max Roach, Duke Ellington, the music of jazz New York clubs, all were big influences for him.
He’s pretty much self- taught, so he learned really from watching other drummers .. then he learned from being around some Chicago blues fanatics and rock and roll guys .. not to mention a good boogie- woogie piano player...

Exactly, Charlie Watts did some interesting projects, but he is not a great jazz drummer. He never claimed to be one. I like some of his albums, like "Watts at Scott's" for example, or his album with Jim Keltner. He is getting together with very good musicians, like his lifelong friend Dave Green, Watts is giving solid impulses, but nothing more. Ten years ago I visited a concert from the ABC&D of Boogie-Woggie in Hamburg. It was a great night, Jools Holland and Lila Ammons were there too. Charlie Watts certainly has a feeling for simple and effective beats - and a great stage presence.

Roll'em Charlie!

Charlie Watts & The Tentet - Blue Note Tokyo 2001

Of course he's technically no great drummer, whatever style/music.

Can you imagine good ol Charlie workin with other good Rockbands? It wouldn't work.He just couldn't handle it.
The few songs he did with other people, mostly friends like Ronnie, Pete T., etc. his playin is very straight and simple.
And imo he plays jazz like he plays Rock, lol.

When I was at a drummers institute many years ago they looked at me kinda pitifully when I mentioned Watts.

Still somtimes he amazes me and does some great and tasteful drumming. Mostly in studio.
But I alawys loved his playing on YaYa's: Sympathy, JJf, Stray cat, Rambler, Queenie, - whenever I go back to those he rocks my world.

I assume what people are saying is that, if he hadn't joined The Stones, Charlie would never have been able to carve out a living as a jazz drummer,right?

Right. I don't think so.

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jlowe
I assume what people are saying is that, if he hadn't joined The Stones, Charlie would never have been able to carve out a living as a jazz drummer,right?

Who could answer that honestly? He's a damn good rock drummer...maybe his jazz chops would have improved if he'd stuck with that style, but making a living playing jazz isn't easy.

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keefriff99

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jlowe
I assume what people are saying is that, if he hadn't joined The Stones, Charlie would never have been able to carve out a living as a jazz drummer,right?

Who could answer that honestly? He's a damn good rock drummer...maybe his jazz chops would have improved if he'd stuck with that style, but making a living playing jazz isn't easy.

^^^100% agree..

he would have been an in-demand drummer in and around London.. he already was.

Chops? Charlie is not about chops, he is about style.
I saw Makaya once. His playing was very annoying. Very loud and over the top. He had a band with him but it seemed he did not need them. A very boring concert. Tyshawn is a lot better however out of 3 times I saw him I only liked him once but it was a couple of years ago and I bet his playing is much more interesting now as plays with Vijay Iyer and such cats. Once I saw Sunny Murray with Charles Gayle and Juini Booth. It was very late in his career and he was ill and pretty high as well. Technically he did not do a lot on stage. It was one of the best concerts I've ever been to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-28 15:30 by Adams.

Loved his shows at Irdium in NYC.

I am a guitar player and did not miss the absence of a guitarist at all!

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keefriff99
No, it's simply not true. I'm no jazz expert, but Charlie is merely a passable jazz drummer at most. As you said, he's more of an aficionado who has the resources and recognition to play in his off time with some very good musicians.

He's fine with brushes, but no one would rate him anywhere close to the greats.

LOL, I was just going to say this, and thought that I'd have a contract out on me after. Glad you said that keef, because as much as I love Charlie, and as much as Charlie seems to love jazz, he isn't all that good.
The real angle is, and what makes Charlie truly special, is that he listens to and is influenced by Jazz,and then brings this into a shambling rock-band. therein lies the genius.

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Adams
Chops? Charlie is not about chops, he is about style.
I saw Makaya once. His playing was very annoying. Very loud and over the top. He had a band with him but it seemed he did not need them. A very boring concert. Tyshawn is a lot better however out of 3 times I saw him I only liked him once but it was a couple of years ago and I bet his playing is much more interesting now as plays with Vijay Iyer and such cats. Once I saw Sunny Murray with Charles Gayle and Juini Booth. It was very late in his career and he was ill and pretty high as well. Technically he did not do a lot on stage. It was one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

That's disappointing to hear. I haven't seen him live yet but really dig his UNIVERSAL BEINGS record.

It was strange that Charlie found it difficult to play on YCAGWYW as Jagger developed song on acoustic and Jimmy Miller had to play the drums.

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OpenG
It was strange that Charlie found it difficult to play on YCAGWYW as Jagger developed song on acoustic and Jimmy Miller had to play the drums.

He had no problems playing it live in 1968 on Rock'n'Roll Circus. Sure you're not mixing up with Ventilator Blues here?

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LazarusSmith

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Adams
Chops? Charlie is not about chops, he is about style.
I saw Makaya once. His playing was very annoying. Very loud and over the top. He had a band with him but it seemed he did not need them. A very boring concert. Tyshawn is a lot better however out of 3 times I saw him I only liked him once but it was a couple of years ago and I bet his playing is much more interesting now as plays with Vijay Iyer and such cats. Once I saw Sunny Murray with Charles Gayle and Juini Booth. It was very late in his career and he was ill and pretty high as well. Technically he did not do a lot on stage. It was one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

That's disappointing to hear. I haven't seen him live yet but really dig his UNIVERSAL BEINGS record.

Well, I did not like the concert and especially his approach to playing with his band but there were people who loved it so you need to go and see and listen yourself. Of course he is a master technician. But to me it does not matter all that much. Is Yngwie Malmsteen a better guitar player than Keith? Technically he is but I don't want to listen to him play and personally I find Keith a better guitar player.

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Adams

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LazarusSmith

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Adams
Chops? Charlie is not about chops, he is about style.
I saw Makaya once. His playing was very annoying. Very loud and over the top. He had a band with him but it seemed he did not need them. A very boring concert. Tyshawn is a lot better however out of 3 times I saw him I only liked him once but it was a couple of years ago and I bet his playing is much more interesting now as plays with Vijay Iyer and such cats. Once I saw Sunny Murray with Charles Gayle and Juini Booth. It was very late in his career and he was ill and pretty high as well. Technically he did not do a lot on stage. It was one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

That's disappointing to hear. I haven't seen him live yet but really dig his UNIVERSAL BEINGS record.

Well, I did not like the concert and especially his approach to playing with his band but there were people who loved it so you need to go and see and listen yourself. Of course he is a master technician. But to me it does not matter all that much. Is Yngwie Malmsteen a better guitar player than Keith? Technically he is but I don't want to listen to him play and personally I find Keith a better guitar player.

He's in Highland Park on 13 Oct so if new baby hasn't arrived by then I just may be able to sneak out on a Sun night and see for myself.

IMHO, technique with no "feel," no "soul," with no emotional component ... is no technique at all!

Neil Peart organized a Buddy Rich tribute concert in 1994:

[youtu.be]

Now, even I, as a non-jazz/swing expert, can see how mightily the great Neil is struggling to swing. Playing rock and jazz is totally different. As amazing as Neil is at progressive rock, he really doesn't have the right touch for playing jazz.

osted by: DandelionPowderman ()
Date: August 28, 2019 21:36

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OpenG
It was strange that Charlie found it difficult to play on YCAGWYW as Jagger developed song on acoustic and Jimmy Miller had to play the drums.

He had no problems playing it live in 1968 on Rock'n'Roll Circus. Sure you're not mixing up with Ventilator Blues here?

I was referring to the studio version, that why I said it was strange since he played it live with no trouble.

Jagger commented on the song's beginnings:
"You Can't Always Get What You Want" was something I just played on the acoustic guitar—one of those bedroom songs. It proved to be quite difficult to record because Charlie couldn't play the groove and so Jimmy Miller had to play the drums. I'd also had this idea of having a choir, probably a gospel choir, on the track, but there wasn't one around at that point. Jack Nitzsche, or somebody, said that we could get the London Bach Choir and we said, "That will be a laugh."[3]

Charlie is the ultimate 'right place at the right time', when it could have easily been Mick Avory or one of a few other good drummers around in the early 60's.
Charlie got the thumbs up, and so glad that he did after being as huge a part of The Rolling Stones as Brian, Mick ,Keith ,Ronnie,Bill and Mick Taylor have been .
The Stones without Charlie after all this time would never happen.

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crawdaddy
Charlie is the ultimate 'right place at the right time', when it could have easily been Mick Avory or one of a few other good drummers around in the early 60's.
Charlie got the thumbs up, and so glad that he did after being as huge a part of The Rolling Stones as Brian, Mick ,Keith ,Ronnie,Bill and Mick Taylor have been .
The Stones without Charlie after all this time would never happen.

yes he got the thumbs up but they were trying to hire him, they loved him and his playing but he was in a few other bands at the time plus working at an ad agency..
clearly Charlie saw potential in the early Stones so he quit the other bands (and eventually his day job) and threw in with them. So in a way, Charlie chose them.

Yes,you are so right duke. I did forget about how he was in other bands at the time as well as the ad agency job, and I would have thought an in demand drummer.
I agree...…………….Charlie probably chose them as his first choice for maybe making a quid or two, and maybe having just the one job with a band with a good future .
You done the right thing Charlie.

…. well maybe its just me
but I'm glad Charlie didn't end up in a jazz band ………….



ROCKMAN

The case with Charlie Watts may be very obvious, yet one has to say that hardly any Stone could have achieved a great career in another band.

eeeeerrr but Mick had the moves to
replace Freddie Garrity from The Dreamers ……..

AND the looks to replace Herman from the Hermits …….



ROCKMAN

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windmelody
The case with Charlie Watts may be very obvious, yet one has to say that hardly any Stone could have achieved a great career in another band.

Dare I say that Bill may have had the best chance of nabbing a top gig elsewhere, given his musical skills, relative sobriety, and professionalism?

YEAH …. Bill wouldn't have looked outta place in The Shaggs ……



ROCKMAN

In my mind Brian and Mick, as well as Ronnie (Jeff Beck Group and The Faces), would have made it in music in a big way anyway.
Keith and Charlie needed a bit of a nudge...……. or good luck to get them where they are...…..but they would also have had a great music career as well .

God bless them all for what they have given to us all since the early 60's.

[youtu.be]