Wonder how do we ever know which shows were 30, 50 or 70% sold ... Is the that insider info of which I know, some of the memebers here have or pure speculation?

Sue in Spain

My coat is torn and frayed, it's seen much better days, but as long as the guitar plays ....

as far as I remember they even changed the layout/seating order for some shows in Germany (2006?) to make the stadiums look like they weren't rather empty

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slewan
as far as I remember they even changed the layout/seating order for some shows in Germany (2006?) to make the stadiums look like they weren't rather empty

Yes, in fact the three German shows 2007 were maybe 55 % filled. But I wasn't there. In another country they had probably cancelled these shows, but Germany is their worldwide market number 3 or 4. There were obviously too many shows in 2003-07 in Europe anyway. And I think it also depends on the financial strenght of the local promotors if a bad selling show is cancelled or not. Interestingly, the shows in Munich or Berlin were not cancelled like Leipzig, Nuremberg (06) although they didn't sell much better. (If Leipzig, Nuremberg had happened, then Berlin and Munich had sold even less tickets.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-27 23:05 by Monsoon Ragoon.

Monsoon Ragoon wrote: "If 30 % is sold four weeks before the show the show would be cancelled probably. But that doesn't happen very often".

In fact, that rarely happens,almost... never, unless a particular case. The case of touring in summers of Football World Cup Tournaments, where the Tournaments are taking place. The Stones had problems in Italy on SW Tour (1990) and they cancelled three gigs in France, 8 years later (they only played Stade De France). So, considering the rest, well known inhibitory factors in 2006 (Keith's accident, tour rescheduled, etc), the whole situation in Germany seemed logical, then IMO.

Anyway, as for the upcoming tour, I still have an unanswered question: If the sales are so slow, why did they add two more English shows? I suppose that their organization (who are clever, experienced professionals) have different indications.

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laertisflash
Monsoon Ragoon wrote: "If 30 % is sold four weeks before the show the show would be cancelled probably. But that doesn't happen very often".

In fact, that rarely happens,almost... never, unless a particular case. The case of touring in summers of Football World Cup Tournaments, where the Tournaments are taking place. The Stones had problems in Italy on SW Tour (1990) and they cancelled three gigs in France, 8 years later (they only played Stade De France). So, considering the rest, well known inhibitory factors in 2006 (Keith's accident, tour rescheduled, etc), the whole situation in Germany seemed logical, then IMO.

Anyway, as for the upcoming tour, I still have an unanswered question: If the sales are so slow, why did they add two more English shows? I suppose that their organization (who are clever, experienced professionals) have different indications.

Yes, if I were the Stones management I had also cancelled two or three of the (too many) Germans dates in 2006. The opportunity was favorable due to the necessary reschedulement of the whole tour. And considering that there was a Soccer championship in the same country that summer, considering the relative high prices even then, considering the still too high number of shows, the German Tour 2006 was still not that bad seller. - I'm not sure what's happening in UK right now, but eight stadium shows are probably too many to sell all out. Maybe the promotors are satisfied if 80 % of the tickets can be sold. If you sell 40.000 tickets at today's prices, you get much more money compared with 100.000 in 1990, inflation-adjusted. Don't forget that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-27 23:18 by Monsoon Ragoon.

well, I guess there are basically two options:

a.) reduce the ticket prices a few weeks before the show (for the promoters it's the same as for airlines – it makes more sense to sell tickets for loww prices than leave seats empty)

b.) let the Stones play half empty places – they might lose less than by cancelling to show because of poor ticket sales.

Both options aim at the same: reducing deficits.

and after all: Having to cancel shows due to poor ticket sales will affect the Stones' prestige – and they really can't throw Keith from a palm tree once again



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-27 23:20 by slewan.

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Monsoon Ragoon

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Olly

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Monsoon Ragoon

I know that by the time of cancellation only ca. 18.000 tickets for Leipzig 2006 had been sold (of 45.000 or so). Similar situation in Nuremberg. I don't know if they had played the 50 % filled stadiums if the tour would had run as planned. They might play if at least 50 % are sold. I've seen several shows that were 60-70 % filled. If 30 % is sold four weeks before the show the show would be cancelled probably. But that doesn't happen very often.

Interesting... out of curiosity, which shows were 60 - 70% capacity?

Berlin 06, Munich 06, Vienna 06, Cologne 99, Brno 07. And many more I didn't attend.

At Paris 07, the whole upper tier was closed and the crowd at the Stade de France was estimated at 50,000. After huge tours in 2003 and 2006 (including at the Stade de France itself less than a year previously), the market had cooled somewhat. However their 2014 Show st The same Stadium was a fast 72,000 sellout!

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slewan
well, I guess there are basically two options:

a.) reduce the ticket prices a few weeks before the show (for the promoters it's the same as for airlines – it makes more sense to sell tickets for loww prices than leave seats empty)

b.) let the Stones play half empty places – they might lose less than by cancelling to show because of poor ticket sales.

Both options aim at the same: reducing deficits.

and after all: Having to cancel shows due to poor ticket sales will affect the Stones' prestige – and they really can't throw Keith from a palm tree once again

Yeah. It's no coincidence that they choose the much smaller Waldbuhne in Berlin 2014 after they didn't sell out the big stadium nearby two time in a row a couple of years ago. Jagger for sure doesn't like to sing in 60 % filled venues. After the success of 2014 they do the stadium again. And I'm pretty sure it won't be sold out. Around Berlin is the poor East part of Germany, and the city itself has 4 million inhabitants but they've been there way too many times.

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grzegorz67

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Monsoon Ragoon

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Olly

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Monsoon Ragoon

I know that by the time of cancellation only ca. 18.000 tickets for Leipzig 2006 had been sold (of 45.000 or so). Similar situation in Nuremberg. I don't know if they had played the 50 % filled stadiums if the tour would had run as planned. They might play if at least 50 % are sold. I've seen several shows that were 60-70 % filled. If 30 % is sold four weeks before the show the show would be cancelled probably. But that doesn't happen very often.

Interesting... out of curiosity, which shows were 60 - 70% capacity?

Berlin 06, Munich 06, Vienna 06, Cologne 99, Brno 07. And many more I didn't attend.

At Paris 07, the whole upper tier was closed and the crowd at the Stade de France was estimated at 50,000. After huge tours in 2003 and 2006 (including at the Stade de France itself less than a year previously), the market had cooled somewhat. However their 2014 Show st The same Stadium was a fast 72,000 sellout!

Of course. 2006-07 is not even one year (2003-07 are four years with three shows), 2007-14 are seven. That makes a difference.

Hmmm... Now I see the official box score from 2006 (a post from Georgelicks) . According these numbers, the Stones played in front of 221,126 people in Germany in 2006, while available tickets were 275,929 totally. That gives 80.1%

Extensively:

Munich 53,501 / 72,074 (74.2%)
Hanover 34,595 / 44,676 (77.4%)
Berlin 44,989 / 65,995 (68.2%)
Koln 37,642 / 39,212 (96%)
Stuttgart 50,399 / 53,972 (93.4%)

Percentages didn't seem destructive, considering the conditions then, unless you believe that the number of tickets available had been reduced, partly, on the statistics. You know the venues, of course.

Enough already...sheesh.
These shows will be packed and rocking.

The ticket business has radically changed in the last two years.
Show are not designed to "sell out" in the first day or even the first few weeks anymore. Ticket sales are all about the maximization of profits. Hence the moving target of pricing and availability right up until show day.

There is huge money in presales these days and huge marketing opportunities for the sponsoring corporations that are tied to them. People are being tricked into thinking that a presale will get them the best seats, but instead it typically gets them mediocre seats at maximum pricing. Seat drops are the standard modus operandi today. The lesson is this: if you first pull up seats that you don't want in a presale, or regular sale, don't buy them. Patience is the new norm. The industry is counting on the frantic emotion of days of old.

Tickets are being held back intentionally so that shows NEVER look sold out. Its all a master plan to keep the profits out of the secondary market. If you think you can make money by scalping a few tickets nowadays, you are sadly mistaken. It's truly an evil business.

Don't sweat it, people.

If you like The Rolling Stones, buy a ticket and go see them. Just make sure that you buy a ticket that you really want in a section that you like and in a price range that you can afford.

Some of you are driving yourselves batty by over-analyzing these modern-day selling practices. Don't.

And as far as 'Lucky Dip' ticket drops...they are being released as a favor to the die-hards. They certainly work to fill up high priced up-front locations on show day, but they are truly a gift to the true fans. This website and the information that is constantly offered up here is not by accident.

Keep Going and Keep Smiling.
God bless The Rolling Stones.

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laertisflash
Hmmm... Now I see the official box score from 2006 (a post from Georgelicks) . According these numbers, the Stones played in front of 221,126 people in Germany in 2006, while available tickets were 275,929 totally. That gives 80.1%

Extensively:

Munich 53,501 / 72,074 (74.2%)
Hanover 34,595 / 44,676 (77.4%)
Berlin 44,989 / 65,995 (68.2%)
Koln 37,642 / 39,212 (96%)
Stuttgart 50,399 / 53,972 (93.4%)

Percentages didn't seem destructive, considering the conditions then, unless you believe that the number of tickets available had been reduced, partly, on the statistics. You know the venues, of course.

Yeah that's still a lot compared with France 98 in a similar situation. But if they had reduced the prices for the remaining tickets they all (Stones and promotors) had made more money. And the malicious press would have reported about filled stadiums - not "half-filled" ("Da kommt keiner mehr" or headlines like this.) (In fact, 68 % looks like half-filled when you're in there.) - By the way, the normal capacity of the stadium in Cologne is much more than 39.000.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-28 00:31 by Monsoon Ragoon.

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Kurt
Enough already...sheesh.
These shows will be packed and rocking.

The ticket business has radically changed in the last two years.
Show are not designed to "sell out" in the first day or even the first few weeks anymore. Ticket sales are all about the maximization of profits. Hence the moving target of pricing and availability right up until show day.

There is huge money in presales these days and huge marketing opportunities for the sponsoring corporations that are tied to them. People are being tricked into thinking that a presale will get them the best seats, but instead it typically gets them mediocre seats at maximum pricing. Seat drops are the standard modus operandi today. The lesson is this: if you first pull up seats that you don't want in a presale, or regular sale, don't buy them. Patience is the new norm. The industry is counting on the frantic emotion of days of old.

Tickets are being held back intentionally so that shows NEVER look sold out. Its all a master plan to keep the profits out of the secondary market. If you think you can make money by scalping a few tickets nowadays, you are sadly mistaken. It's truly an evil business.

Don't sweat it, people.

If you like The Rolling Stones, buy a ticket and go see them. Just make sure that you buy a ticket that you really want in a section that you like and in a price range that you can afford.

Some of you are driving yourselves batty by over-analyzing these modern-day selling practices. Don't.

And as far as 'Lucky Dip' ticket drops...they are being released as a favor to the die-hards. They certainly work to fill up high priced up-front locations on show day, but they are truly a gift to the true fans. This website and the information that is constantly offered up here is not by accident.

Keep Going and Keep Smiling.
God bless The Rolling Stones.

Perfectly said, Kurt! 100% sharing your opinion

It's all sounds good, but what about Warsaw?
There is no any kind of tickets for weeks!

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longvehicle
It's all sounds good, but what about Warsaw?
There is no any kind of tickets for weeks!

That's what I was thinking too. I really wonder if the promotor held tickets behind for this show. Will there be any ticket drops the next weeks / months, or is it really sold out? I know that Ticketmaster often has the strategy of dropping tickets in all prices categories over time, but as Eventim is the official ticket seller in Poland, I don't know about that. Did Eventim had several ticket drops last year in Germany for instance? Time will tell.

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Monsoon Ragoon

By the way, the normal capacity of the stadium in Cologne is much more than 39.000.

It's 35,600 - 60,000 for Concerts according to [www.RheinEnergieStadion.de] . But parts of the tribunes around the stage weren't used:


Cologne RheinEnergieStadion, 23-Jul-2006, picture taken (by Irix) shortly before the concert.

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Irix

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Monsoon Ragoon

By the way, the normal capacity of the stadium in Cologne is much more than 39.000.

It's 35,600 - 60,000 for Concerts according to [www.RheinEnergieStadion.de] . But parts of the tribunes around the stage weren't used:


Cologne RheinEnergieStadion, 23-Jul-2006, picture taken (by Irix) shortly before the concert.

I think they reduced the capacity on paper to make people like our experts here think it was nearly sold out. But I don't know, I wasn't there. On the picture it doesn't look like a 96 % sell-out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-28 13:09 by Monsoon Ragoon.

By the way.... I Love this stadium in cologne. Nice pic! Great memories on a great concert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-03-28 13:05 by Parisrambler.

"These shows will be packed and rocking".

That's what I believe too, Kurt. I'm sure they will be rocking, because I NEVER attended a non- rocking Stones gig. And I'm optimistic about the upcoming shows being packed, as they were the gigs in 2014 and 2017. And, I repeat, the fact that they added two gigs, after the first indications as for the sales, I think "says" something.

Maybe doing 8 stadium gigs in UK alone it's a very ambitious plan, even for the Stones, but that's why I don't care if one or two English venues will be 85- 90% and not 100% filled. No big deal to me.

As for your analysis about the "modern" selling policy, I think you' re right. Yes, "patience is the new norm" and "the industry is counting on the frantic emotion of days of old..."

Personally, although I knew how the "system" does work now, I sold my three tickets for Edinburgh (myself, wife and son) quickly. And they were expensive... Maybe I feel a bit fool, for the time being. But, when I'll hear the first Keith's chords, when I 'll see my (8.5 years "old") son dancing, clapping and being happy during his second Stones gig (the first one was Barcelona, last year), in my mind there will be not any space for thoughts about prices...

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Monsoon Ragoon

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laertisflash
Hmmm... Now I see the official box score from 2006 (a post from Georgelicks) . According these numbers, the Stones played in front of 221,126 people in Germany in 2006, while available tickets were 275,929 totally. That gives 80.1%

Extensively:

Munich 53,501 / 72,074 (74.2%)
Hanover 34,595 / 44,676 (77.4%)
Berlin 44,989 / 65,995 (68.2%)
Koln 37,642 / 39,212 (96%)
Stuttgart 50,399 / 53,972 (93.4%)

Percentages didn't seem destructive, considering the conditions then, unless you believe that the number of tickets available had been reduced, partly, on the statistics. You know the venues, of course.

Yeah that's still a lot compared with France 98 in a similar situation. But if they had reduced the prices for the remaining tickets they all (Stones and promotors) had made more money. And the malicious press would have reported about filled stadiums - not "half-filled" ("Da kommt keiner mehr" or headlines like this.) (In fact, 68 % looks like half-filled when you're in there.) - By the way, the normal capacity of the stadium in Cologne is much more than 39.000.

Remember the Berlin concert. The stadium looked very empty - terrible. All the seats in behind were halfway empty. That was the first time I thought, now Stones can not fill stadiums anymore and it is over. Maybe the reason why they stopped touring for some 6 years.

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Monsoon Ragoon

I think they reduced the capacity on paper to make people like our experts here think it was nearly sold out. But I don't know, I wasn't there. On the picture it doesn't look like a 96 % sell-out.

"sell out" always refers to number of tickets sold, not number of people in the venue (hence scope for some massaging of the figures).

Platinum pit tickets are currently on TM for London 22nd show for £500. That's 'only'£65 above face value (inc fees).

Of course, that implies they haven't sold as many, so perhaps they will emerge at regular price later (though I'm not sure of the relationship between TM and AXS on this), but if anyone is desperate...

syrel

there's always the otion to add some popular support acts to increase ticket sales

Mtaylor wrote: "Remember the Berlin concert. The stadium looked very empty - terrible. All the seats in behind were halfway empty. That was the first time I thought, now Stones can not fill stadiums anymore and it is over...".

If you thought that, you probably had "forgot" how many dissuasive factors were affecting then. Keith's accident, rescheduled tour, people pissed, fans who had planed their summer holidays in different basis, World Cup Tournament in Germany, high frequency of German shows in the previous years, etc, etc. Under these conditions, 45,000 in Berlin and 221,000 in Germany were not that bad attendances.

Situation was very difficult in 2006 - 07. For example: Before Keith's accident, Belgium and Barcelona gigs were sold out or close to sold out. When tour has been rescheduled, they played in front of 30,000 people in Belgium (at different venue) and 42,000 in Barcelona. So the whole thing had not to do with band's popularity. It had to do with the factor "Accident- Cancellations Mess"...

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laertisflash
Mtaylor wrote: "Remember the Berlin concert. The stadium looked very empty - terrible. All the seats in behind were halfway empty. That was the first time I thought, now Stones can not fill stadiums anymore and it is over...".

If you thought that, you probably had "forgot" how many dissuasive factors were affecting then. Keith's accident, rescheduled tour, people pissed, fans who had planed their summer holidays in different basis, World Cup Tournament in Germany, high frequency of German shows in the previous years, etc, etc. Under these conditions, 45,000 in Berlin and 221,000 in Germany were not that bad attendances.

Situation was very difficult in 2006 - 07. For example: Before Keith's accident, Belgium and Barcelona gigs were sold out or close to sold out. When tour has been rescheduled, they played in front of 30,000 people in Belgium (at different venue) and 42,000 in Barcelona. So the whole thing had not to do with band's popularity. It had to do with the factor "Accident- Cancellations Mess"...

All true. But you forget to mention that the 2006 Belgium tickets were for the Brussels stadium with much lower capacity than the Werchter field.

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mtaylor
Remember the Berlin concert. The stadium looked very empty - terrible...

Does anyone have a picture showing the crowd at this show? Thanks.

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Monsoon Ragoon

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Irix

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Monsoon Ragoon

By the way, the normal capacity of the stadium in Cologne is much more than 39.000.

It's 35,600 - 60,000 for Concerts according to [www.RheinEnergieStadion.de] . But parts of the tribunes around the stage weren't used:


Cologne RheinEnergieStadion, 23-Jul-2006, picture taken (by Irix) shortly before the concert.

I think they reduced the capacity on paper to make people like our experts here think it was nearly sold out. But I don't know, I wasn't there. On the picture it doesn't look like a 96 % sell-out.

this is not just before the concert. it was very full that day. great great show

Even if the photo has been taken, let's suppose, 15' before gig's start, all of us know what does happen at musical events and sports: Maybe 2,000 or even 3,000 people can enter during the last minutes.

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PaintMonkeyManBlack

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Monsoon Ragoon

I think they reduced the capacity on paper to make people like our experts here think it was nearly sold out. But I don't know, I wasn't there. On the picture it doesn't look like a 96 % sell-out.

this is not just before the concert. it was very full that day. great great show

Yes, it was very full that day and I agree with the Promoter's statement of 96% sell-out.

Dunno anymore when I took the picture exactly (the Originals went lost), but it must have been 20-30 mins before the Show.

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Irix

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PaintMonkeyManBlack

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Monsoon Ragoon

I think they reduced the capacity on paper to make people like our experts here think it was nearly sold out. But I don't know, I wasn't there. On the picture it doesn't look like a 96 % sell-out.

this is not just before the concert. it was very full that day. great great show

Yes, it was very full that day and I agree with the Promoter's statement of 96% sell-out.

Dunno anymore when I took the picture exactly (the Originals went lost), but it must have been 20-30 mins before the Show.

But that can't be 34.000 or so as mentioned above. So anyway, Cologne wasn't a problem in 2006, but the nearby Dusseldorf stadium gig a year later wasn't a big success