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dcba

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lem motlow

wandering spirit was alot of mick just wanting to do a really good record after two not so good ones.his first two he was trying to make something very unsafe and un-rolling stones, which oddly enough is what he always gets grief from stones fans for not doing.

I think you're wrong : MJ said in that interview ("Rock And Folk" 1993) that RR was "difficult, even more difficult than Keith".

My translation : Rubin didn't go along with my BS, as I wanted once again to make a disposable solo album full of bad taste in terms of arrangements, and filled to the brim with guests contributions by the hottest artists du jour.

No Rubin forced me to stick to my roots and made me come up with a disc ppl could still listen to in 2013. Man I hated that".

For Goddess, Mick went back to what he wanted : Lenny Kravitz, a plastic sound, 37 guests etc etc

you got alot of mileage out of a six word qoute.

-"difficult,even more difficult than keith"-could mean "shows up late like keith"or gets too high while falling asleep in the studio like keith" or about 100 other things.

stones fans do this all the time.they've read all the articles and interviews,add in their own feelings and form a little rock and roll fantasy about what went down at a certain time.
the wandering spirit fantasy seems to be -big bad rick rubin stepped in and forced little ol mick jagger to buckle down,do his homework and make a good record.

the flaw in this theory is that jagger hired rubin,he was an employee just like a chef or a gardener.if he was taking the music somewhere mick didnt want to go or getting on his nerves jagger would've fired his ass.

truth is,micks playing and songwriting on wandering spirit and voodoo lounge is the same.the songs are interchangeable,its just how he was writing and playing in the early half of the 1990's.

actually the production quality on voodoo lounge is far superior to wandering spirit but it doesnt fit the narrative to have DON WAS telling mick to work harder,right?

RICK RUBIN has the unique ability of sweet-talking bands into recording in the form and fashion that made them popular to begin with. That's Rick Rubin in a nutshell. If he could convince the Rolling Stones to record live, in the studio, AS A BAND (not a bunch of disparate ProTools patch-ins), then I think we would all have a reason to celebrate.

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lem motlow
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you got alot of mileage out of a six word quote.

yes and no cos I read the entire interview and Mj made it clear he's rather dig out Brian Jones with his bare hands rather than working with Rubin again.

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dcba

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lem motlow
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you got alot of mileage out of a six word quote.

yes and no cos I read the entire interview and Mj made it clear he's rather dig out Brian Jones with his bare hands rather than working with Rubin again.

i get that-everyone who follows the stones knows that old story.it's most likely he thinks rubin is an annoying know-it-all.

hence mick saying "rick rubin has all these ideas about how old records were made,i know the difference,because i was there"

i mean that idea that this producer came in and ordered jagger to work harder and make a good record,you gotta be kidding with that shit.

like i said ,Don Was did a far better job producing voodoo lounge than rubin did on wandering spirit and it was jagger working on exactly the same style of songs.

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lem motlow

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dcba

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lem motlow
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you got alot of mileage out of a six word quote.

yes and no cos I read the entire interview and Mj made it clear he's rather dig out Brian Jones with his bare hands rather than working with Rubin again.

i get that-everyone who follows the stones knows that old story.it's most likely he thinks rubin is an annoying know-it-all.

hence mick saying "rick rubin has all these ideas about how old records were made,i know the difference,because i was there"

i mean that idea that this producer came in and ordered jagger to work harder and make a good record,you gotta be kidding with that shit.

like i said ,Don Was did a far better job producing voodoo lounge than rubin did on wandering spirit and it was jagger working on exactly the same style of songs.

This is just your point of view. I think exactly the opposite: Rubin did a great job with WS and Don Was ruined Voodoo Lounge.

Voodoo Lounge - Don Was didn't have anything to do with it. How can anyone seriously think he did?

What do you mean he had nothing to do with Voodoo Lounge? Was was the key player in constructing its feel and sound. Jagger has said in several interviews that was not the album he wanted to make or release. He said they originally had a lot of groove music with more different styles, yet Was kept insisting they re-make Exile. It has a lot of music and a lot of it is crap. There are few standouts though. Bridges was far better, and I think in large part because other producers were involved and Keith and Mick were fighting. Tension seems to bring out the best in them.

Let Jack Frost do it.

He would say, "Guys, you've your songs worked out before you enter the studio".

Into which, Jagger would reply, "Yes, I'm into that. Keith, you heard that?".



- Doxa

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GasLightStreet
Voodoo Lounge - Don Was didn't have anything to do with it. How can anyone seriously think he did?

What about the drums in the stairwell, the dust bins, wah-wah on the lap steel, Keith playing 90s indie-riffs on acoustic through a Leslie + Mick's harp (Moon Is Up).

Mick and Keith's idea? I guess we'll never know...

Keith is not to revealing, either...

"That song had been around since Ireland, and everybody was fascinated with it. The song was suddenly there, you know, and what are we going to do with it? To me, it was all tied in with Charlie. If Charlie Watts is willing to experiment in the studio, then I'm the happiest man in the world. It so happened that as we were trying this track out in different configurations, I put an acoustic guitar through a Leslie cabinet, Ronnie was playing pedal steel through some tiny little amplifier, and Mick was singing through the harp mike. The drums were the only thing that sounded unreal, because they were real. So we fished around for a bit, and I said, Well, what about playing on a suitcase outside? And before I know it, Charlie Watts is out there in the stairwell with a garbage can and brushes, and that's the sound. After that, it was very hard to keep him out of the stairwell."

- Keith Richards, June 1994

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet
Voodoo Lounge - Don Was didn't have anything to do with it. How can anyone seriously think he did?

What about the drums in the stairwell, the dust bins, wah-wah on the lap steel, Keith playing 90s indie-riffs on acoustic through a Leslie + Mick's harp (Moon Is Up).

Mick and Keith's idea? I guess we'll never know...

Keith is not to revealing, either...

"That song had been around since Ireland, and everybody was fascinated with it. The song was suddenly there, you know, and what are we going to do with it? To me, it was all tied in with Charlie. If Charlie Watts is willing to experiment in the studio, then I'm the happiest man in the world. It so happened that as we were trying this track out in different configurations, I put an acoustic guitar through a Leslie cabinet, Ronnie was playing pedal steel through some tiny little amplifier, and Mick was singing through the harp mike. The drums were the only thing that sounded unreal, because they were real. So we fished around for a bit, and I said, Well, what about playing on a suitcase outside? And before I know it, Charlie Watts is out there in the stairwell with a garbage can and brushes, and that's the sound. After that, it was very hard to keep him out of the stairwell."

- Keith Richards, June 1994

That all sounds so damn great in a theory, but the result just turned out to be one of their worst ever. I mean, there is not many Stones song in their catalog that I don't somehow like, but this sounds sounds awful to my ears. Probably Don Was thought, after hearing the results, that "okay, guys, let the experiments be, and do something retro instead..."

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-01 11:17 by Doxa.

<the result just turned out to be one of their worst ever>

No, it didn't. It was one of the highlights on the album, and somehow they made it sound almost identical (and cool) live

At 1:27

Thanks for bringing up the live version, Dandie, and I think it works better live than in VOODOO LOUNGE (the same with another 'recent' experiment I dislike very much, that horrible "Juiced"), and Keith's guitar is a nice one, but sorry, the song just irrates me. It is just so damn stupid song, and I think they end up sounding unintentionally comical. Not my cup of humour.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-01 11:57 by Doxa.

No humour, just experimental (for the Stones) art

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DandelionPowderman
No humour, just experimental (for the Stones) art

But when experiment ends up sounding humoristic, that doesn't always make very memorable or convincing result...

But I guess I am in a minority here, since I think quite many of us fans here seem to like this song rather much. "Juiced" as well.

- Doxa

Arguably RR had a better Mick songs to work with than DW but he did pass on the best ones, Ivy League and Honest Man to name just two...and let's add Zip Mouth Angel. Besides he also nixed Keith's excellent "Make It Now"...they should have fired him in 1996...which they pretty much did for B2B, except he was back for ABB, big mistake, not sure how Mick let that happen.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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gotdablouse
Arguably RR had a better Mick songs to work with than DW but he did pass on the best ones, Ivy League and Honest Man to name just two...and let's add Zip Mouth Angel. Besides he also nixed Keith's excellent "Make It Now"...they should have fired him in 1996...which they pretty much did for B2B, except he was back for ABB, big mistake, not sure how Mick let that happen.

Is Ivy League a Mick/Keith-penned song, or a cover?

Btw, Justin on this board actually made a melody and lyrics to that one on YouTube

Make It Now is indeed excellent - or more precisely, it could have been excellent

Honest Man sounds a bit like a rocking version of Sweet Thing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-01 12:49 by DandelionPowderman.

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gotdablouse

...which they pretty much did for B2B, except he was back for ABB, big mistake, not sure how Mick let that happen.

A good question. My hypothesis is that even though Jagger once (1995) protested VOODOO LOUNGE for its 'retro' nature, I think the job Was did with it, actually worked for him in the long run. In BRIDGES Jagger tried still do something different, and Was had no much room, but by 2005 - I dare to suggest - Jagger wanted to make a classical sounding Stones album, and who could have been a better man than Don Was for that. The way A BIGGER BANG was done had this vibe that with as little effort as possible will to be made as 'authentic' sounding Stones product as possible. That Was turned out to be the trusted man in the vaults releases since then sounds rather logical as well. If Leavell is the trusted man who knows how the old songs go, Was is the trusted man who knows how the classical Stones should sound. We 'critical' Stones fans might have some differing ideas and ideals, but...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-01 13:36 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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gotdablouse

...which they pretty much did for B2B, except he was back for ABB, big mistake, not sure how Mick let that happen.

A good question. My hypothesis is that even though Jagger once (1995) protested VOODOO LOUNGE for its 'retro' nature, I think the job Was did with it, actually worked for him in the long run. In BRIDGES Jagger tried still do something different, and Was had no much room, but by 2005 - I dare to suggest - Jagger wanted to make a classical sounding Stones album, and who could have been a better man than Don Was for that. The way A BIGGER BANG was done had this vibe that with as little effort as possible will to be made as 'authentic' sounding Stones product as possible. That Was turned out to be the trusted man in the vaults releases since then sounds rather logical as well. If Leavell is the trusted man who knows how the old songs go, Was is the trusted man who knows how the classical Stones should sound. We 'critical' Stones might have some differing ideas and ideals, but...

- Doxa

When we listen to Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue it's easy to assume that they didn't plan making a "retro" Stones album. The tapes are flooding with different musical styles/arranging/sounds.

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Doxa

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gotdablouse

...which they pretty much did for B2B, except he was back for ABB, big mistake, not sure how Mick let that happen.

A good question. My hypothesis is that even though Jagger once (1995) protested VOODOO LOUNGE for its 'retro' nature, I think the job Was did with it, actually worked for him in the long run. In BRIDGES Jagger tried still do something different, and Was had no much room, but by 2005 - I dare to suggest - Jagger wanted to make a classical sounding Stones album, and who could have been a better man than Don Was for that. The way A BIGGER BANG was done had this vibe that with as little effort as possible will to be made as 'authentic' sounding Stones product as possible. That Was turned out to be the trusted man in the vaults releases since then sounds rather logical as well. If Leavell is the trusted man who knows how the old songs go, Was is the trusted man who knows how the classical Stones should sound. We 'critical' Stones fans might have some differing ideas and ideals, but...

- Doxa

I find A BIGGER BANG far more listenable - and enjoyable - than VOODOO LOUNGE. I loved VOODOO when it came out, the songs worked well live. But it hasn't aged well. Hilarious that Was produced both - they sound completely different, 12 years and 3 LPs apart even. I really don't think he has that big of an imput to the sound. If Mick is such the perfectionist etc then he was obviously OK with VOODOO... he can be their biggest hypocrite.

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KRiffhard
This is just your point of view. I think exactly the opposite: Rubin did a great job with WS and Don Was ruined Voodoo Lounge.

of course its only my opinion,thats a given.all of this is just our opinions-
one thing though,i actually listen to this music on a regular basis.

i have a playlist on my ipod that is 1990-1995 songs-keiths solo,micks solo,voodoo lounge.
what jumps out is the sound quality of the voodoo tracks over mick and keiths solo records.now the actual playing isnt a fair fight,a side band isnt the rolling stones. but as far as production voodoo mops the floor with wandering spirit and main offender,dont remember 20 years ago-go listen to it back to back.

as can be expected,jagger and richards were writing songs in a very similar way on the solo records as to the stones records.listen to "wicked as it seems" then "love is strong"-now compare the sound.

now listen to "out of tears"and compare the production quality to any of the ballads on wandering spirit-see what i mean?

which brings me to my original point.anyone thinking rubin could come into the studio and say" now boys,we're gonna play as a band and record it"or work really hard now we wanna make a good record" is a joke.the stones have seen and done everything,they could do anything rubin could do ten times better in their sleep.

as far as gaslights contention thats jagger is being a hypocrite for having misgivings about voodoo-thats just silly.he's a member of a band not a dictator.there are other people who have opinions about how things should go.he most likely would've just wanted to make bridges a few years earlier.

and don was "not having anything to do with producing the rolling stones"-

how does that work?-"here don,we want you to have this rather large cheque on behalf of the band because...you're a really nice guy.and by the way,we're putting your name in front of the glimmer twins because...you didnt do anything???

by the way,don was produced the best rolling stones record to come out in the last 30 years-STRIPPED...unless of course, they were just giving away money and credits again...

Some good points there, lem. However, a producer can still be very good, although the sound quality sucks on a record.

Arranging, instrumentation, developing ideas etc. can still be very interesting and useful, while the sound is poor.

AND: Charlie's snare sound on VL might be better than the snare on WS, but it's still drenched in echo and reverb.

I agree about Stripped. Excellent sound, and probably the best album (studio or live) since Some Girls, imo

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lem motlow
anyone thinking rubin could come into the studio and say" now boys,we're gonna play as a band and record it"or work really hard now we wanna make a good record" is a joke.the stones have seen and done everything,

That's a caricature of the RR method.
He's more like "hum guys that riff's interesting. Keep working on it". Much more subtle than your description.
If the artist knows that he'll call the Rubin method a fraud (Kerry King and Angus Young do) but if a band is stranded (like Metallica was or like the Stones are imo) it could be very profitable.

RE the Stones : to add a bit of novelty to the recording process they used the Dust Brothers (cough cough) and they wouldn't use Rubin?

Imo what prevents Jagger from calling Rubin is he knows Rubin will make them work. As in "work hard in rehearsals, call me when you're ready and I'll drop by and tell you how many songs you've got. Which means you might spend a few months on your album, probably a year".

Does Jagger want to hear this? No he wants a RS album to be a thing that'll take a few weeks of his time.

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loog droog
Today's go-to producers for Artists of a Certain Age...


Rick Rubin



T-Bone Burnett



Daniel Lanois

T-Bone Burnett would probably produce a Stones album that I might like the sound of...

...but I think it might be a bit like if they'd just let Keith produce it all himself.

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dcba
That's a caricature of the RR method.
He's more like "hum guys that riff's interesting. Keep working on it". Much more subtle than your description.
If the artist knows that he'll call the Rubin method a fraud (Kerry King and Angus Young do) but if a band is stranded (like Metallica was or like the Stones are imo) it could be very profitable.

RE the Stones : to add a bit of novelty to the recording process they used the Dust Brothers (cough cough) and they wouldn't use Rubin?

Imo what prevents Jagger from calling Rubin is he knows Rubin will make them work. As in "work hard in rehearsals, call me when you're ready and I'll drop by and tell you how many songs you've got. Which means you might spend a few months on your album, probably a year".

Does Jagger want to hear this? No he wants a RS album to be a thing that'll take a few weeks of his time.

i've explained to you why this is ridiculous about 4 times now,if you say it again it will still be ridiculous.

think of what you just said and apply it to reality-keith richards is sitting in a studio playing his guitar.now rick rubin is there...he's gonna say"hey that riff is interesting keep working on it"

"gee,thanks rick.i would've never thought to keep working on this riff,it's not like i'm keith fcking richards sitting here.

and once again you give us "the big bad rick rubin theory"-micks "afraid" to call him because he'll "make the stones work really hard"

-the problem is that the rolling stones latter day records are better than anything rick rubin has ever done.steel wheels,voodoo lounge,stripped,bridges to babylon and bigger bang are only inferior to old stones records,not "ballbreaker,wildflower,not the chili peppers,definitely not the black crowes or an old dying johnny cash singing grunge music.and he worked with the cult? oooohh, the cult wow we"re getting chills...

he would most likely annoy them to the point keith smashed a bottle over his head.-"keep working on that riff guys"....waaack!!

I think the problem with Voodoo Lounge and lot of other later day albums is that all the songs were written and recorded at the same time...and they went into the studio without any homework. When you listen to live versions of the songs - they all come out alive and sound great, cause by then band really knows what they were doing and how the songs were meant to be played. The orginal studio versions are not up there yet but later on tour..the songs sounded great.

very true seitan,but the rolling stones also carry a huge burden to not make the same record over and over again.

so even though the stones obviously have a very distinct sound they are constantly working around the edges to make records that are not repetitive,and after 50 years those edges can be razor thin.
hence the songs being worked up in different ways,some we may not care for as much as others but at their core these are some really good songs on some really good records.

i've actually changed my mind about the latter day records quite a bit,instead of thinking about them and talking about them i've done more listening.all things considered its some damn good music.