I don't really start threads so this may die a quick death which may be merciful in any event.

I wondered over the years if when the band bothers to print credits they cite contributions that were on works in progress and not necessarily the finished record. Recently, they revised the credits to STICKY FINGERS to show Keith playing guitar on "Moonlight Mile." Obviously, the earliest version(s) featured Keith, but I really believe the studio master is The Two Micks only.

Some credits I am unclear on whether to trust. Is Keith really not playing on "Stop Breaking Down" and "Saint of Me?" I would tend to think he is, but most here seem to accept otherwise. What about "Tumbling Dice?" Is it really Keith and Jagger with Taylor on bass? I can believe Jagger on "Good Time Women," but "Tumbling Dice" would make me believe it's Keith and Taylor.

It's not just guitars, either. What about keyboards? I hear keyboards that sound a bit like "Get Back" on "Sway" and not the credited piano. I hear keyboards that aren't credited on tracks like "Sparks Will Fly" and "Dangerous Beauty." Then there are instances where Mick and/or Keith are credited with piano or keyboards alongside a session man. Are they simply listing themselves for playing on early takes? What about keyboards that seemingly blend with guitar parts such as the solos on "Wanna Hold You" or "Can't Be Seen?"

What about multiple bass players credited on the same track? Charlie says he didn't play much on UNDERCOVER or DIRTY WORK yet whenever we discuss the latter, the consensus seems to be that's Charlie's dreadful playing (apart from "Harlem Shuffle" and "Had It With You" where he sounds terrific) on most of the tracks and the session drummers did fills, percussion, or backing vocals only.

Anyway, am I the only person who questions these things? Possibly. I am getting crabbier in my old age so it's likely I mutter about things that don't matter much as well.

And yes, for those who have speculated, my real name is Lem Motlow.

But how can you be Lem Motlow?

Here, you type with capital letters and add spacing between sentences. In addition to that, your post shows no obvious anti-Beatles agenda to bait people with.

I'm sure that Keith didn't play on Saint of Me -- that's one of the tracks he skipped sessions for. Another track he doesn't play on is Shine A Light.

Charlie was really in no condition to play on much of Dirty Work. Doesn't the album credit the name of at least one other drummer? In fact, I believe Charlie's... condition was the main reason why they didn't tour behind that album. Drumming on half the tracks on that album sound too... I don't know, processed, generic, to be Charlie.

It would make sense that he didn't play much on Undercover either -- and would go a long way toward explaining why half the album sounds like an eighties club/funk band and the other half sounds, well, like the Rolling Stones.

I only hear one guitar on "Shine a Light" which is Mr. Taylor in all his majesty, of course. As for "Saint of Me" (nice of you to connect the two), when I listen to NO SECURITY (with Keith) it sounds the same as the album track (allegedly without Keith). It always struck me odd the track has Waddy, but no Keith.

There are three other session drummers listed for DIRTY WORK: Steve Jordan, Charley Drayton, and Anton Fig. All three were Paul Shaffer's drummers. I would think Charlie Watts is only playing on maybe 3 or 4 tracks on that album. Sly Dunbar's electronic drumming and programmed rhythm tracks are on much of UNDERCOVER (likewise SHE'S THE BOSS).

Finally, I am too Lem Motlow and so is my wife.

The real Lem is one of my favorite people here. We used to argue once upon a time and then I decided to stop worrying and love the Lem. He's far more fun than he is anything else. Much like acupuncture, Lem's needles don't hurt if you know how to lie on him properly.

Okay, Rocky, I'll take your advice and Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life.

Yes, that mini Stones v Beatles thread Lem has going is actually rather fun, and I've been a frequent contributor. It's helped me to recall an amusing Eric Clapton magazine interview from over 30 years back, so it's worth its weight in posts.

www.timeisonourside.com



I remember reading Kieth wasn't on Saint of Me. It's Ron, Mick and Waddy Wachtel. Mick and Keith weren't working together at the time of Babylon.

I also remember reading that Keith wasn't on Moonlight Mile in a magazine interview with Mick Taylor.


"The song was the product of an all-night session between Jagger and guitarist Mick Taylor. Taylor had taken a short guitar piece recorded by Richards (entitled "Japanese Thing") and reworked it for the session. Jagger performs the song's prominent acoustic guitar riff." - Wiki

often wonder how and where Woody Payne is livin' now days .... Rome ..Paris ...New York????



ROCKMAN

A nice topic...one I am interested in
Thanks!

Liner notes to Black n Blue always intrigued me...

mick Taylor played on Tops.




Any more credit oddities?

Quote
Rockman
often wonder how and where Woody Payne is livin' now days .... Rome ..Paris ...New York????

Last I heard Mr. Payne was playing in a combo with Clinton Clifford.

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exilestones




keith wasn't on Sway.

He's all over the chorus. Rightfully credited.

Taylor is credited on BS, but no one can spot his track on the final version..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-27 20:37 by DandelionPowderman.

Someone living rent free inside your head doesn't make you them -it just means they're in your head

Quote
exilestones


mick Taylor played on Tops.




Any more credit oddities?

Probably on Waiting on a friend as well. The balance tips to Taylor.

Quote
lem motlow
Someone living rent free inside your head doesn't make you them -it just means they're in your head

Now, now, Mr. Motlow, I made it clear I was only joking. Besides, I'm one of the few who regularly laughs at your one-liners.

Clinton Clifford..... probably Rocky ... must admit had ta look that one UP ....



ROCKMAN

Well, we know Bernie Worrell and Lily Haydn were at the BRIDGES sessions. I've always figured that's Lily playing on "Any Way You Look At It" and it seemed likely Bernie's playing on "You Don't Have To Mean It." Bernie had the Keith connection from TALK IS CHEAP and the George Clinton Parliament Funkadelic connection so Keith dubbing him Clinton Clifford -- the surname presumably a humorous nod to another keyboard-playing Clifford (who was absent throughout most of the 1990s apart from Mick's solo sessions) seemed a likely guess to his original identity. Why Woody Payne instead of a simple Trad. Arr. credit for "Love in Vain" I never understood.

Plus Keith plays on a couple Of Worrell tracks --- Funk Of Ages



ROCKMAN

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Why Woody Payne instead of a simple Trad. Arr. credit for "Love in Vain" I never understood.

That's an interesting issue. From the literature I've seen different explanations:

(1) It is simply a pseudonym for Robert Johnson. Yeah, most likely is, but why this mysterious Payne appeared decades after Johnson's death (Probably for the first time in The Stones' version of "Love In Vain"?) As far as I know, Johnson didn't call himself with that name, someone else did. The question, of course, arises why?

(2) It is fabricated by the Stones to avoid legal hassles (thereby, Woody Payne is kind of lost cousin of Nanker Phelge). Howewver, this doesn't seem to quite hold court (sic) for two reasons.

Firstly, because by the time they released "Love In Vain" and "Stop Breakin' Down" all Robert Johnson music supposed to be public domain (for example, in the original sleeve of THE KING OF DELTA BLUES SINGERS it was stated that are the songs are public domain), so no reason to came up by any fabricated name, a simple "trad." would have done (like you Rocky said). However, it could be like one Johnson representive claims [www.guitarsite.com] that because it was supposed to be public domain it was handy to take all the the credits by fabricating a name; thereby 'avoiding legal hassles' by having all control over it.

Secondly, and I think this rules out the whole explanation: during the 60's and the 70's some other Johnson tunes were also credited to Woody Payne (most notably "Sweet Home Chicago" by The Blues Brothers.). (See [www.discogs.com] ) So if the Stones fabricated "Woody Payne" a'la "Nanker Phelge", these other artists also needed to have paid for them! It doesn't sound likely... They surely are cold-hearted bad-asses, but not that bad...

(3) There actually is someone named - or someone calling himself or someone - Woody Payne who claims for the rights of (all, most of, some?) Robert Johnson catalog. In some cases - especially in America - as "T. Colley". However, Payne and Colley 'disappeared' after the rights for Robert Johnson catalogue were starting to be controlled by Robert Johnson estate (for example, Atlantic was adviced by Johnson people to not credit "Sweet Home Alabama" for Payne any longer, which they did -see [books.google.fi]). After this intervention by Johnson people, The Stones also started to credit - there actually were some legal hassles? - Robert Johnson properly as the writer of "Love In Vain" and "Stop Breakin' Down", and direct the royalties to the right direction.

(I recall reading from somewhere - A Robert Johnson biography/article? - about someone trying to chase this "Payne", but without success - sorry I can't recall the details and can't find the source at the moment)

Anyway, my picture - and this is a total guess - is that the Stones didn't try to fool anyone here, but probably they - with Johnson estate (which didn't actually exist before one blues enthusiastic discovered Johnson's half-sister and made a deal with her in mid-70's) - were fooled if anyone was. For years they were forced to give the credit, and probably actually pay something, to this mysterious Payne. So according to this interpreation, the song was not public domain "trad" by the time they released it in LET IT BLEED (despite Johnson's 1961 album claiming so).

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-28 11:03 by Doxa.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
There are three other session drummers listed for DIRTY WORK: Steve Jordan, Charley Drayton, and Anton Fig. All three were Paul Shaffer's drummers. I would think Charlie Watts is only playing on maybe 3 or 4 tracks on that album. Sly Dunbar's electronic drumming and programmed rhythm tracks are on much of UNDERCOVER (likewise SHE'S THE BOSS).

Ronnie is not mentioned playing drums on Sleep Tonight.

Aren't there steel drums on Loving Cup?

Are Jordan and Drayton listed or credited as drummers on DW? Both play bass and guitar as well, so...

When Rocky mentions Mick or Keith listed on keyboards, in addition to session guys I think it is just that: they doing a simple track on basic track. Maybe they wrote it on keys, and need it to guide themselves and the band.
With a band such as the Stones, who have loose sessions; often have friends come by; employ session guys, I think it is unavoidable that there are mix-ups, grey areas. Plus - all these guys are multi instrumentalists.

"Stop Breaking Down" is just two guitars.The lead is clearly Taylor, and the chugging rhythm is that Jagger style. There is an outtake of (I think 'Highway Child") where one can hear Jagger playing just like that. Jagger's guitar, his vocal, and those harmonica bursts rule on SBD.


I have Ron Wood listed as drummer on "Sleep".
There are Steel Drums on "Loving Cup"; they are much more audible on outtake versions.

Now I have 2 questions that sort of fit in this thread, and I don't know where to place otherwise:
On "Little by Little", as the Song progresses a high falsetto notes starts coming in whenever they go to the IV chord. ( I think the tune is in E, so it would be when they go to the A). Is that a voice? And if so, who?
Other question is, on the Live album "Got LIVE if you want it" I assumed that "Under my Thumb" was performed with Keith and Brian both on electric guitars. The performance is way too frantic, and technology too crude for them to be doing that song with Brian on Marimbas. I have only ever seen him on that instrument for TV shows. Yet - when listening to GLIYWI, I can hear the vibes.

..................................... Far out ...



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-29 02:22 by Rockman.

ROCKMAN

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Are Jordan and Drayton listed or credited as drummers on DW? Both play bass and guitar as well, so...

Yes, both are credited on the THANKS section, but neither play in any track on the album.

Ronnie plays drums on Too Rude and Sleep Tonight, Charlie plays drums on all the others DW songs.

"On Too Rude, I got to play the drums. That was when Charlie was going through a terrible time with Shirley. They were having lots of heavy arguments and so Charlie was often late, or Shirley would come into the studio and forcibly drag him out. On one of those nights Keith said, All right, you're on drums, Ronnie... The drum sound was very dynamic: I ended up sounding like Solomon Burke's drummer. I was very proud of it, actually."
- Ron Wood, 2003

"Yes - (I played) drums on... Sleep Tonight - I could never get over the thought of playing instead of Charlie, I thought that would be a sacrilege, but he insisted because he was going through a lot of problems at the time and couldn't be at the studio. Keith said, Right, you're on drums, so I finally hacked it into shape and when Charlie got there I gave him the sticks and he said, No, I can't get it right, you play it. It worked out good."
- Ron Wood, 1988

"I wrote that one at the piano when there was nobody else there except Woody and me - Woody plays drums on that one. So he was sitting at the kit, I was stitting at the piano, and I got this sequence together."
- Keith Richards, 1985


Thanks to Time Is On Our Side

I'm pretty sure about the quote about Too Rude is rather about Sleep Tonight.

Solomon Burke's drummer?

Surely if Love in vain was written and recorded around 1937, it would not be in the public domain some 30 or so years later (1969) ?

Quote
jlowe
Surely if Love in vain was written and recorded around 1937, it would not be in the public domain some 30 or so years later (1969) ?

The copyright laws were different back then. Here is a good article I just found: [www.americanbluesscene.com]



BLUES LAW: ROBERT JOHNSON VS: THE ROLLING STONES

This is the latest article in the popular Blues Law series by lawyer, author, and radio personality Brian Lukasavitz, “The Blues Attorney”, that explores interesting and landmark law cases related to the blues genre.

We all know the 29 classic recordings that Robert Johnson laid down in Texas during his two recording sessions in 1936 and 1937. Almost all of the legendary British blues-rockers of the ’60s… Clapton, Fleetwood Mac, Zeppelin, The Stones, among others paid tribute to the music and legend of Robert Johnson, even if little was known of the musician himself.

In 1961, Columbia Records released a 2-album collection of all of Robert Johnson’s songs entitled “King of the Delta Blues Singers”. Until that point, like most blues songs of the era, none of Robert Johnson’s songs or recordings had been registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. Under the 1909 Copyright Act, “unpublished works” are protected under State Law. Once “published” or registered, a song was entitled to 28 years of copyright protection (with an option to re-register for an additional 28 years).

When the Rolling Stones recorded their versions of “Love in Vain” in 1969 (Let It Bleed), and “Stop Breakin’ Down” in 1972 (Exile on Main Street), their publishing company, ABKCO Music, assumed that the two songs had already entered the public domain. At some point, presumably in the late 1980’s- early 1990’s, Steve LaVere and his publishing company, Delta Haze, had negotiated with Robert Johnson’s Estate to administer the copyrights to the music. Following the 1990 CD release of the “Robert Johnson – the Complete Recordings”, LaVere registered the copyrights.

After attempts to negotiate with ABKCO, LaVere filed a lawsuit in 1995 arguing that the songs were not in the public domain, and that he (Delta Haze) and the Estate of Robert Johnson was entitled to royalties. ABKCO Music successfully made a motion to dismiss the case in district court, arguing that due to a failure to re-register the songs after 28 years, all of Robert Johnson’s works became part of the public domain. In 2000, LaVere appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. He argued, based on the Amendment to the 1909 Copyright Act, for music released prior 1978, for purposes of copyright law, the term “publication” would not include commercial releases of a recording. It is on this basis that the Ninth Federal Circuit Court accepted the case.

Possibly the most interesting aspect of this case, is that by ruling against the Rolling Stones, the Ninth Circuit Court would be overturning the La Cienega case (the famous John Lee Hooker/ Z.Z. Top case), which is exactly what the court did. In deciding this case, the court found that the new amendment was in place and that the amendment merely “clarified” the definition of “publication” as used in the 1909 Copyright Act, and that the Robert Johnson federal copyright protection began in 1990, and that the Rolling Stones were infringing the rights on those two songs. The Court ultimately reversed and remanded the case back down to the District Court and stated that judgment be entered in favor of Delta Haze and the Robert Johnson estate. It is unclear what the final amount owed to Delta Haze and the estate was, as they may have settled out of court, however, one thing is certain: the “World’s Greatest Rock ‘n’ Roll Band” paid a lot more than tribute to the “King of the Delta Blues Singers”.

The lesson here for artists (and their heirs) that wrote and released, but did not register their copyrights prior to 1978, there may be some substantial royalties due, should they get their works registered now.


- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-30 11:20 by Doxa.

Blind Lemon Jefferson - Dry Southern Blues 1929

My mind leads me to take a trip down south
My mind leads me to take a trip down south
Take a trip down south and stop at a fatmouth's house

One train's at the depot with the red and blue lights behind
One train's at the depot with the red and blue lights behind
Well, the blue light's the blues, the red light's the worried mind

I hate to tell you, sugar, it t'ain't nobody there
I hate to tell you, sugar, it t'ain't nobody there
If a man stay here, he'll stay most anywhere



ROCKMAN

Blind Lemon was da man...

But back to the Stones/Robert Johnson-'controversy'... It seems to be that the heavy factor was noone else but certain Mr. A. Klein (and he lost hahaha)- but did ABKCO Music also owned the publishing rights for "Stop Breakin' Down", like stated in teh article? It was recorded already in 1970 if memory serves, so probably it still was.

- Doxa

ABKCO did indeed. They owned publishing on everything recorded through 1970. That's all of STICKY FINGERS and several tracks on EXILE including "Stop Breaking Down."