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keefriffhardsQuote
bmuseed
Mick is the exception to the rule! A musical talent with a business acumen. He had the best interests of the band in mind and they knew it. The band always had a veto power but for the most part, didn't need to use it.. Everything was implied, never stated...
And yet with his business acumen they did not have much to show for their efforts financially until the mega 81' 82' world tour.
I agree he is a great business man post 81' but not so sure about up to that point.
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Testify
Mick and Keith are complementary, their solo albums are not masterpieces, but between Wandering Spirit and Talk is Cheap, WS is much better!
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HMSQuote
mickschix
HOGWASH, HMS!! You can't really believe Keith TAUGHT MICK how to write! As I recall, Andrew Oldham MADE them learn writing skills together. Now, granted, in the very beginning, Mick was not a guitar player so Keith may have taught Mick the chords BUT he did not teach Mick lyric writing or even melody writing, for that matter.
" As Tears Go By", one of their first creations is beautifully simple, written by both Mick & Keith. As someone said earlier, Mick is the poetic one but he " hears melodies in his head" just as Keith does....foolish statement, IMO.
Without Keith Mick would have never ever penned a line in his life. Take a look at his solo-albums and it is clear to see how poor his songwriting-skills are when Keith is not around. Mick´s solo-efforts sound best when he is trying to write in Keith-style. As for lyrics, he is not much of a poet, it´s quite the same all over again. Without Keith he is completely lost. Ever was, always will be. Keith is the major force in the Stones-universe. Like a plant needs the sun, Mick needs Keith, he needed him back then and he even more needs him now.
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Naturalust
I think you are totally underestimating Mick's abilities to pen a song by himself. Tunes like Brown Sugar, Dead Flowers, 100 Years Ago and many others were written by Mick alone. Sure Keith help make the recordings better but to say Mick needed or needs Keith to write songs is uninformed and ignorant. Keith style and Mick style were once much closer than you may think. I am not denying that they had some special magic as a team at one time. I don't think it's possible to get it back either really, their musical sensibilities may have drifted too far apart. Perhaps they can close the gap with some true roots music, I hope so.
Micks solo albums aren't the best example of his stuff, imo, you've got to remember it was the 80's and both the music biz and the songs floating around the air were arguably at an all time low. Mick seems highly influenced by the musical atmosphere around him and it was pretty bleak at that time, imo.
I'm not sure why we haven't had any true classics for a long time from either one, together or individually but I suspect they have just pretty much burned through what they truly had to say that was unique and incredibly special. Neither has truly moved me with a new composition in decades.
As far as Jagger being a poet, his lyrics aren't all particularly poetic but they're great as song lyrics. He is a brilliant lyricist, or at least he was, some of the more recent stuff lacks the magic he once penned. I suspect his pampered lifestyle and guarded persona has just made him a bit out of touch with what most people see and feel.But I imagine if he actually put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too,
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kleermakerQuote
Naturalust
I think you are totally underestimating Mick's abilities to pen a song by himself. Tunes like Brown Sugar, Dead Flowers, 100 Years Ago and many others were written by Mick alone. Sure Keith help make the recordings better but to say Mick needed or needs Keith to write songs is uninformed and ignorant. Keith style and Mick style were once much closer than you may think. I am not denying that they had some special magic as a team at one time. I don't think it's possible to get it back either really, their musical sensibilities may have drifted too far apart. Perhaps they can close the gap with some true roots music, I hope so.
Micks solo albums aren't the best example of his stuff, imo, you've got to remember it was the 80's and both the music biz and the songs floating around the air were arguably at an all time low. Mick seems highly influenced by the musical atmosphere around him and it was pretty bleak at that time, imo.
I'm not sure why we haven't had any true classics for a long time from either one, together or individually but I suspect they have just pretty much burned through what they truly had to say that was unique and incredibly special. Neither has truly moved me with a new composition in decades.
As far as Jagger being a poet, his lyrics aren't all particularly poetic but they're great as song lyrics. He is a brilliant lyricist, or at least he was, some of the more recent stuff lacks the magic he once penned. I suspect his pampered lifestyle and guarded persona has just made him a bit out of touch with what most people see and feel.But I imagine if he actually put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too,
I think you overestimate Mick here, both musically and poetically. I am sure he did not write those tunes you mentioned all on his own and offered them ready and complete to the band. As a matter of fact both J. and R. did not. They always got help from others. If Jagger was such a brilliant songwriter, then why did he not make it on his own? For Keith goes the same. Outside the framework of the band they couldn't make it. They both owe everything to 1) each other and 2) the band.
Do you really mean: "if Jagger put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too"? So it is laziness and/or lack of interest that has robbed the world of another brilliant poet like Homer and Dante? I don't think so.
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Munichhilton
Too Rude live from Hollyweird is perfection...better then the Stones
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harlem shuffle
Todd Snider
On his album Agnostic Hymns and Stoner Fables, Todd Snider documents the ups and downs of the Jagger-Richards songwriting partnership with the tune “Brenda,” the title of which refers to Keith’s less-than-flattering nickname for his lead-singing counterpart.
American Songwriter recently asked Snider to write a column on one of his songwriting heroes. The East Nashville folkie and author responded with a free-verse ode to Jagger (who just recently became a great-grandfather), praising his stand-alone songwriting brilliance and utter fearlessness.
Read an excerpt from his new book I Never Met A Story I Didn’t Like here.
* * * *
when people ask me who I think the best songwriter is
I say I think it’s in the ear of the beholder
but when somebody asks
me who my favorite songwriter is, I say,
Mick
without hesitation.
did I mean to say Mick and Keith?
no.
don’t get me wrong.
Keith is number three for me behind Bob
to give you an example
of how deeply we have been affected by
the work of these men
let me point out that I have said
none of their last names
and you know who I am talking about
anything I ever saw or heard
that had anything to do with any of them
free or for sale
I saw it heard it
and love it for making my life better
after 30 years of doing regular business with them
I have zero point zero customer complaints
and that includes solo albums
and collaborations
but
Mick is my favorite
lyricist, songwriter, producer, singer, front man
the front man bit you seldom get any arguments about
he seduces women and angers men.
he scares everybody
and fears nothing.
if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you.
vocal tone isn’t really a talent I guess
after a guy hits notes
you either dig the sound or you don’t
you can’t switch amps like a guitar player
vocally
for me Mick is the sweet spot
between Petty, Dylan, Lennon types
and Van Morrison, McCartney, Prince types
he can take his voice almost anywhere
the producer part his
sometimes grateful partner
gets a lot of credit for
but go listen to Soul Survivor before Mick got it
you can hear that song before Mick and after
or watch any studio video
Mick Jagger is the leader of the Rolling Stones
my god.
the thought of it would make a president sweat.
as a songwriter
and by that I mean melodic composition writer
or say
which notes to sing and where
I would use the word
greatness.
for an example of this greatness
buy a Mick Jagger solo album
or
more easily
I could refer you to all the songs
that he sings with his band
the Rolling Stones
you may have heard a few
of them already
hell
I bet you could think of one to hum to yourself
before I finish this sentence.
so now we come to the two things about him that set him apart
the furthest for me
and that’s
the lyrics
I think he is the most fearless public person of my lifetime
and when I hear the words he writes
I have to wonder if that fearlessness is the heart or core
of why the poetry seems to so easily
pour filterlessly from the heart without pomp or circumstance or mythology
into a song wide open to be what it wants (i.e. Sympathy For The Devil)
and I think had Mick Jagger not been so envied, attractive to women, androgynously handsome,
willing to dance. willing to frighten. his words would be poured over by stoners.
in short.
if he wasn’t the best stripper
he would get credit for being the best poet
but as it stands
the second best poet can’t dance, sing or strip for shit.
so he gets to be first best in our history books
but even he knows whats up
Bob Dylan told Keith Richards
“see Keith I could write a “Satisfaction” but you could never write a “Like A Rolling Stone”
and I agree
that Keith Richards probably isn’t going to sit down and pen anything
that moves people like “Like A Rolling Stone” does
I am not sure I agree that Bob Dylan has a riff in his catalogue
that could stand up next to “Satisfaction”
at least not to my taste
but one thing for sure
he didn’t say that to Mick Jagger
who wrote
“the sunshine bores the daylights out of me”
and
“you can’t always get what you want but if you try sometimes you get what you need”
and
“what can a poor boy do ‘cept for sing for a rock and roll band”
and
“people say I’m a loser, but I still get lucky on the side”
and
“laugh. I nearly died”
and
“I’m free to do what I want any old time”
and
“my best friend he shoots water rats and feeds them to his geese
and
“can’t I have my ups and downs? can’t you see I’m human?”
and
“she drove her pick up truck painted green and blue”
and
“god gave me everything I want. come on I’ll give it to you”
and
“I was born in a cross fire hurricane”
and
“there she was sitting in the corner. a little bleary. worse for the wear and tear”
and
“Our love is like our music / It’s here and then it’s gone”
and
“I see the girls go by, dressed in their summer clothes / I have to turn my head until my darkness goes”
and
“Like a newborn baby, it just happens every day”
and
“Please allow me to introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste”
and
“Onstage the band has got problems / They’re a bag of nerves on first nights”
and
“now I’m just one of your cocks”
I COULD DO THIS ALL DAY
THAT’S OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
YOU COULD DO THIS ALL DAY
for fifty years this guy
has been ready to open his heart
and write it down
for his band
and
he doesn’t have to create a bunch
of mythology around himself
to get steeled up enough to do it.
he just does it.
his mystery is @#$%& you.
and if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you
Jagger will let you watch him put on this make up
and when he’s done
you will think he is gone
Jagger deliberately dresses to anger boys
who are uptight about their own sexuality
he wants bullies
to want to kill him
and if he has to
he’ll lick a guy’s face to get that going
that didn’t happen cuz he was all @#$%& up that night on SNL
that happened cuz he’s Mick Jagger
all the time.
no bullshit.
he doesn’t have to pretend he didn’t help plan the party
to be the shaman at it
he doesn’t have to pretend he is reluctant to even be
at the party
in order to read his poetry at it.
he says he is not going to write a book
to me this says a lot about Mick
as a fan watching from way up at the top of the stadium
who is
unbelievably and overwhelming
grateful
to be entertained by the whole mess
it seems to me
that while Bob Dylan and Keith Richards
go way out of their way to make sure
everybody knows
how little they care
what everybody thinks
about them
Jagger just doesn’t
if I could pick only one person
to ever get another songwriting lesson from
it would be Mick Jagger
I think he is so good all around at everything
a person could bring to the job
that it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle
that as a songwriter
he is arguably one of the best to ever do it.
and in closing, I would like to add,
that if you went back and took all the music in the world
that came out
before 1985
and threw it away
as if it had never been heard
I would still say this
and furthermore
if nobody had ever
heard of
or seen
the Rolling Stones
and they were
only playing songs
off their Bigger Bang album
and it was
in a bar
that was kinda empty
tonight
as in this very evening
and I walked in and saw it and heard it
I would believe
I was witnessing the future of rock and roll
which ain’t much really
I mean
it can’t change the world
per say
so to speak
and what have you
say no more
right?
I mean
we all know
it’s only rock and roll
but
I have personally grown quite fond of it.
when Mick Jagger sticks his pin in his heart
and suicides right on stage
man oh man oh man
does it satisfy my bleeding heart
TS
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72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.
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treaclefingersQuote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.
yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.
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72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.
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treaclefingersQuote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.
yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.
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Jesse1960
His acumen was yet to be developed to it's current edge in 72, when ABKCO successfully gained the publishing rights to Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down the Line, Shine a Light, and Stop Breaking Down, after correctly determining, and proving, those five tunes had been for all purpose and intent worked up in an executable form while still under contract to ABKCO. Did Jagger really think Klein was asleep at the wheel?
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kleermaker
Both Jagger's and Keith's solo albums are average at best. They do nothing to me and cannot even stand in the shadow of the worst Stones album. Besides, both needed the band to make the songs they 'wrote' really special.
As for the lyrics: Jagger has certainly written some fine lyrics indeed, no doubt about that. But calling him a poet is too far stretched.
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Rocky DijonQuote
kleermaker
Both Jagger's and Keith's solo albums are average at best. They do nothing to me and cannot even stand in the shadow of the worst Stones album. Besides, both needed the band to make the songs they 'wrote' really special.
As for the lyrics: Jagger has certainly written some fine lyrics indeed, no doubt about that. But calling him a poet is too far stretched.
The only argument I have on the first point is to note that once Mick and Keith embarked on solo careers, the band ceased to function as a band in improving their songs together and apart. I may prefer Charlie and Ronnie (and when he was still there, Bill) as players, but from DIRTY WORK on Stones recordings are really interchangeable with Mick and Keith solo sessions in terms of the quality of the songs. The collaboration between them if still existent had seen the dynamic change irrevocably now that they had established themselves as separate entities artistically. Neither can escape the shadow of the Stones, though. Every solo effort is viewed in the context of whether a song is Stonesish or not.
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I did have to take Mick to a few discos - which are not my favorite places in the world - because Mick likes to go out and dance at night. So I did that. That was my sacrifice. I humored him. And that's when I knew we could work together."
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72hotrocksQuote
treaclefingersQuote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.
yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.
But,being oversexed doesn't rob you of your creativity,mental clarity and musical prowess.
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HMS
Wandering Spirit is Mick Jagger trying to write Keith-style-songs. It worked pretty well and so WS is a rather good imitation of a "real" Stones-album. Although I like Wandering Spirit, Mick Jagger imitating The Rolling Stones made not much sense. Anyway its his best solo-effort. Many critics praised he album, and I think most Stones-fans liked it. Talk Is Cheap & Main Offender could have been close to masterpieces, if only these albums had a singer and a drummer...
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jlowe
Late 1967....when ALO got the boot....or escaped dependent on which book you read.
In terms of Management, Mick clearly doesnt need a Jane Rose type of figure to organise his professional life. From what I can guage these are a few of the key figures in the Stones/Jagger camp:
JOE RASCOFF: US based and sometimes referred to as the Stones Business Manager
JOYCE SMITH: As referred to in this thread already
JAN FAVIE: Accountant, based in the Netherlands
SHERRY DALE: Runs their London office, also Marathon Music and Munro Sounds
LISA PORTMAN: Micks PA
plus of course lawyers/AEG/publicits and PR.
No doubt all bound by various confidentiality clauses!