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DEmerson
Treacle - not complaining that the band is old. Complaining that I am! ;-)

yeah, I sort of merged my comments to you and D&G...sorry 'bout that!

and I'm old too, for the record.

I wouldn't go see The Who, I think their show has strayed away from it's roots but I know dozens of people going, Same with the Grateful Dead, friends are breathlessly waiting for more shows to be announced. When I try to strike up people for The Stones as I assumed they'd play Yankee Stadium or something on The East Coast they all turned me down even when I told them they were playing great and it was a thrill not to be missed. Now this is a small sample and there may very well be no connection to the big picture. But it's the same big picture that has them spending the summer in secondary markets, perhaps they feel that fan base will support monster shows.

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treaclefingers

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DEmerson
Treacle - not complaining that the band is old. Complaining that I am! ;-)

yeah, I sort of merged my comments to you and D&G...sorry 'bout that!

and I'm old too, for the record.

I swore off Stadiums after The Who played Shea Stadium in 1982. I broke this rule for Steel Wheels, Dylan and The Dead and Macca. I am 56, run 3 miles every other day but way too old to trek past The Appalachians in mid summer to watch the band on a screen.

I won't go to a stadium show for reasons I have already outlined in the tour thread at the top of the page.

However, it does make sense that they should do a stadium tour, for the reason being that there's no way they could go through the same market 2 years later with the same arena tour concept at the same inflated prices. At least with a stadium format, prices will be lower and more people will get to see them, so it makes sense for a change like this, so long as they are touring more or less continuously. In the old days, they would have wrapped up their tour by spring 2014 at the latest and would have been in hibernation until 2017, 2018 at least.

As for Charlie drumming outdoors in a speedway, he doesn't hit the drums very hard anyway, being a jazzer, and won't have to actually work harder for a stadium show--the extra mics and PA will take care of that. According to Charlie, what he dislikes about outdoor shows is that the weather can be unpredictable and the wind can blow, causing his symbols to sway rather than stay in place so he can hit them with the proper precision.

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stonehearted
According to Charlie, what he dislikes about outdoor shows is that the weather can be unpredictable and the wind can blow, causing his symbols to sway rather than stay in place so he can hit them with the proper precision.

Poor Charlie...for a million dollars for 2 hours work I think he can find the friggin cymbals in a gale.

peace

Charlie hits the snare harder than most drummers.

I worry about Charlie through all of this. Not his well being really but his playing stamina and approach. Sometimes you can feel him drift behind in a measure and he's got his shoulder locked on the high-hat side, concentrating and compensating, he no longer looks loose. He has been making a valiant effort for his band and fans. His playing is still great to witness full of swing, he's earning his money no matter how much, try to find another.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-18 22:03 by DoomandGloom.

I can't believe I am the only one who read between the lines on Charlie's ridiculous statement about not wanting to play outdoor shows.

All the way back to Steel Wheels they employed some samples. I remember catching the keyboard wiz kid toss in some fills and re-set the tempo to the band during songs. What was in this sequence I won't guess but it could have been any instrument including guitars and voice. From my eye all that has stopped and the heart of the song has gone back to the stage, I really doubt that it's happening offstage either. The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare. It's still Charlie playing live but the mic triggers a perfect sound with a control for dynamics. The FOH engineer then mixes the live mic with the sample to his taste. He'd have to be aware of side stick and mis-triggers but that's his job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-18 22:13 by DoomandGloom.

<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

Would I be one of the very few who thinks these stadium shows are not going to sell out nearly as fast as some think. I would be surprised. I haven't applied for a new AMEX card....I'm thinking there will be plenty of tickets available. I'll get the cheapest seat if the weather looks good and self-upgrade...or just watch on the big screen with a minimum investment...

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be a very small "white lie". It's just something supplemental to keep the drums solid.. I doubt there's a band touring large venues that doesn't do this. The Stones' show is likely the most real of any competing bands considering The Dead's holographic Jerry is coming. Maybe Jerry could sit in on "Surprise, Surprise."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-18 22:58 by DoomandGloom.

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

I think Doom is referring to the sequencers in Rock And A Hard Place on the SW tour. There were "acoustic guitars" during the bridges as well as some synthetic-sounding drum rolls among other things. Digital sampling.

<<Would I be one of the very few who thinks these stadium shows are not going to sell out nearly as fast as some think.>>

It was that way in the 90s as well, when you'd read press reports about ticket sales "sputtering in the Midwest markets" for the Voodoo and Bridges tours--at least at first. Then word of mouth would get around about how great the shows were and fans would realize the band still had what it took, and the tickets would sell.

They'll do fine, they always do.

Well some announcements appear to be postponed, maybe they'll revise their list to cover more areas. It's not official till it's official....

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palerider22
Would I be one of the very few who thinks these stadium shows are not going to sell out nearly as fast as some think. I would be surprised. I haven't applied for a new AMEX card....I'm thinking there will be plenty of tickets available. I'll get the cheapest seat if the weather looks good and self-upgrade...or just watch on the big screen with a minimum investment...

well it's not even as though a majority of the tix is released to AMEX.

They get an allotment of presale, and they'll sell out, maybe even faster than the actual show.

I usually go for the presale for AMEX shows and have been very well rewarded, but for me, it's the 'peace of mind' knowing I've gotten a ticket before the masses have to duke it out.

That said, stadiums will take longer to completely sell out, so if you're on the ball when the sale starts, you will get a ticket. No guarantee of how good a seat, but you'll certainly be at the show.

I think I will go again, even if it's cheap seats. I just won't spend $500+ on a ticket.

I'd just like to hear them one more time, and the Sticky Fingers album presentation, if that's what they actually do would be great.

i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

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Dan
I can't believe I am the only one who read between the lines on Charlie's ridiculous statement about not wanting to play outdoor shows.

Do enlighten.
Please..

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Natlanta
i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

I prefer the "I Can See That Your Just '15, But I Don't Want Your ID Tour".

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DoomandGloom
I wouldn't go see The Who, I think their show has strayed away from it's roots but I know dozens of people going, Same with the Grateful Dead, friends are breathlessly waiting for more shows to be announced. When I try to strike up people for The Stones as I assumed they'd play Yankee Stadium or something on The East Coast they all turned me down even when I told them they were playing great and it was a thrill not to be missed. Now this is a small sample and there may very well be no connection to the big picture. But it's the same big picture that has them spending the summer in secondary markets, perhaps they feel that fan base will support monster shows.

The Who are my 8th favorite; the Stones 2nd but the way it is lining up I am seeing the Who 3 times locally (as travel costs will be $10 for 2 shows and $40 for the third). I enjoy seeing them but find the Stones shows more authentic of course with no doubt.

After having gone through a cancellation in San Jose in '99, I do not wish to run the small % chance of a postponement visiting somewhere I would have no desire to go anyway.

On top of that in stadiums there is always a weather concern. Yes, I bring ponchos but cancellations and delays do happen.

I am happy for everyone who is getting to go as I got my fair shot 7 times in 2012-2013, but it is just not in the cards for me this time.

I don't mind the stadiums as much as I mind the lack of public transportation/close hotels.

However,I totally agree with the routing and think it is great they are visiting places the have not played in years

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treaclefingers

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Natlanta
i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

I prefer the "I Can See That Your Just '15, But I Don't Want Your ID Tour".

i'm there, yes pencil that in.

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Natlanta
i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

It's been tough, being called a hater because I believe the tour plans are misguided. If I didn't care or wasn't passionate about the band I wouldn't torture us all. Of course I'm not really making a difference here but there's some obvious geographical flaws, some of these cities are 3 hours apart for instance. Sometimes even big stars with giant machines can get the wrong advice or be victims of corruption or slight of hand. Maybe someone really on their side sees what I see, things like playing at The Indy 500 Raceway are not in anyones best interest. If by chance there was an incident, the parallels in the press would stain their history forever. While America is a pretty safe place one of the great problems is copycats, the news will grasp on to this inevitable comparison to Altimont and they could mindlessly run this angle for months before July 4th. Seems like an unnecessary risk at this point when there's hundreds of other venues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-19 03:25 by DoomandGloom.

[/quote]It's been tough, being called a hater because I believe the tour plans are misguided. If I didn't care or wasn't passionate about the band I wouldn't torture us all. Of course I'm not really making a difference here but there's some obvious geographical flaws, some of these cities are 3 hours apart for instance. Sometimes even big stars with giant machines can get the wrong advice or be victims of corruption or slight of hand. Maybe someone really on their side sees what I see, things like playing at The Indy 500 Raceway are not in anyones best interest. If by chance there was an incident, the parallels in the press would stain their history forever. While America is a pretty safe place one of the great problems is copycats, the news will grasp on to the inevitable comparison to Altimont and they could mindlessly run this angle for months before July 4th.[/quote]

It's not that I'm a spoiled city snob...really. It's just all these "flaws" and the boy's are being "victims" of corruption, and I'm worried about their legacy...

What's next??

I'd say you're likely to say their senile, but you already went with the ageism angle...

This is rich.

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-19 04:57 by DoomandGloom.

And of course, as well all now, Sympathy (my favorite track ever) uses sampled loops for the congas since 1989. But, it works really well with Charlie hitting the snare on 2 & 4 along with the high hat to complement. To me it is very interesting hearing how the sampled track has involved. I remember to my amuseument at the Vet in 2002 someone actually started the loop a few songs early!
I remember even reading in Billboard in 1989 that the cowbell in HTW was sampled then! 2000 Light Years used some interesting mellotron samples as I was was told.

These days no one is even using a grand piano anymore. Why mic it? Billy Joel is using a midi controller controlling Ivory Grand i believe running off of a few McIntoshes. No one in the audience knows even .

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[email protected]
And of course, as well all now, Sympathy (my favorite track ever) uses sampled loops for the congas since 1989. But, it works really well with Charlie hitting the snare on 2 & 4 along with the high hat to complement. To me it is very interesting hearing how the sampled track has involved. I remember to my amuseument at the Vet in 2002 someone actually started the loop a few songs early!
I remember even reading in Billboard in 1989 that the cowbell in HTW was sampled then! 2000 Light Years used some interesting mellotron samples as I was was told.

These days no one is even using a grand piano anymore. Why mic it? Billy Joel is using a midi controller controlling Ivory Grand i believe running off of a few McIntoshes. No one in the audience knows even .

Last real piano I saw in an arena was Bruce Hornsby with The Grateful Dead in the early 90's.. I recall a story that Roy Bittan's piano was stored in the freezing outdoors in a truck during a teamsters strike. The Springsteen load in became the day of the show and it was frozen so tight to tune it they had to heat it with blow torches. Still a grand piano in a rock show is.... grand.. Chuck always played one in The Allmans. The further you get from real, the further you get.

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Natlanta
i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

'18 And Over
'19 Nervous Breakdown Tour
2020 Hindsight Tour
'21 in Vegas

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DoomandGloom

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bleedingman
Assuming this "rumored" list is correct and the Stones are not coming to New York, then I am disappointed. The Forest Hills rumors got my attention but I still would prefer MSG. I passed when they played Shea Stadium and I was much younger at the time obviously. I personally don't enjoy stadiums so even if they were playing Yankee Stadium or CitiField, I'd skip it. All good wishes to those who do enjoy the travel and spectacle but, at age 62 and having seen them many times since '72 - most recently at Barclay's where I was underwhelmed - I will regrettably not be seeing them this go round.

Although Bigger Bang gets applauded here people that I know that went vowed never to see the band again. I do not know the chronology of the gigs regarding Keith's accident but it's well known Ronnie mailed in much of the tour himself. That along with a disastrous Super Bowl performance put many casual fans on the outside, this is fact, many people I know will see The Who but not The Stones. In the last few years they have eclipsed some of that crap for those left watching, it seems they've thrown good sense out the window. Now Charlie is playing drums, outdoors, at a speedway of all places, on July 4th in unknown weather conditions..Less than half the people will have a good vantage point, never mind the security and all the bs that goes on here daily from both sides of the law.

Two thoughts;
I've seen the Who and the Stones on every tour since the late 80s; I can tell you in no uncertain terms which band has deteriorated the most. I saw the Who do Quad in 96 and it was great and they killed at Wembley in 2000, But every tour since has been worse and worse, I saw Quad again a couple of years ago in LA and it was not good. I will probably go again this tour (tho I dont have a ticket at this point) but it's only for nostalgia's sake at this point.
I saw 3 Stones shows in 13 and they were all excellent, especially the last night in LA.
I'm not thrilled that this tour is all stadia, but back in the mid 80s I was worried I'd never see them at all, and when I did (in the UK) all we got thru the 90s were stadiums so I'm ok that 25 years after Urban Jungle they are still playing and I'm still able to see em and have 3 or 4 shows in driving distance.

Lastly, re Indy; I'm not thrilled about the venue, but that venue hosts 250,000 people yearly for the 500 and there's never any problems more than a few folks being thrown in the drunk-tank. Why you would expect more problems at a Stones show 1/3rd of the size I have no idea and you seem to think that every mid-west city is rife with Ferguson like problems. A shame you have such a narrow viewpoint of the world.

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.

While I agree with much of what you say, you are wrong about the Stones. I've done FOH mixing for a few A list acts and I know alot of the standard tricks and I am surprised too, no worries. I too have worked with Bob C (in the studio only) and learned a few tricks from him as well. A true master with a golden ear.

Anyway, ProSoundWeb did an article after sitting with Natale during the Stones show at Boston’s TD Garden arena in 2013. Quotes from the article:

"What impressed me most was that the audio team shunned the use of unnecessary tools or treatments, and despite having them patched did not use a single compressor or noise gate on an act as prestigious and hard-rocking as the Rolling Stones. Once again for clarity, not a single compressor or noise gate was engaged on any channel."

"I realize this lack of treatment defies convention, but it’s obviously a considered choice by a crew determined to present the music in the most appropriate manner possible. The result is a remarkably natural and refreshing presentation. The show sounded fantastic, and most importantly, the sound was honorable to the music. No breathing compressors or clicking gates to get in the way. Leading-edge transients abound. To this observer the experience offers engineers of all skill levels an important reminder: just because you can doesn’t mean you should."

Dave goes on to say:

“I could do this band on a pair of Shure Vocal Masters and a 58 in some church basement, and guess what it would sound like? It would sound like the Rolling Stones,”

“This is the Stones; it’s not Roger Waters or Elton John. Clive Franks (Elton John) used effects better than anyone I’ve ever heard in my life. That guy was so good, he used a ton of effects on Elton shows and you could hear every one of them even in a reverberant arena. But that was appropriate because of that music. Same with Trip (Khalif) on Roger Waters. You can’t do Roger Waters without outboard gear. That’s not possible because it won’t be Roger Waters. You need delays, you need reverb because that’s the nature of Pink Floyd.”

peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-19 08:22 by Naturalust.