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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele
OK, allow me to just say this: I have waited, what...MY WHOLE LIFE to see Mick Taylor play Silver Train with the Rolling Stones. And then Ron Wood plays his guitar solo. WTF?

Thank you.

He could have played his guitar solo when it was his turn, but froze a bit - like Ronnie did. Mind you, this arrangement was different than in Tokyo, where Taylor played the only solo. This might have stirred things up a bit and eventually made it difficult for them.

He played with a different tuning, so he wouldn't have played THAT solo anyhow.

You're saying Taylor was supposed to play the first solo but froze, AND he was in the wrong tuning?

No, but by changing the arrangement they made it more difficult for themselves.

Not the wrong tuning (yes, "wrong", compared to the studio version), but a different tuning that requires a different playing style. This was open G, whilst Silver Train is in standard tuning.

The hesitation from both guitarists probably had to do with something weird going on with the rhythm section (just a guess).

You mean Taylor's solo on the record was in standard tuning (Keith was in open G, obviously). But Taylor almost always plays slide in standard tuning. I think the problem was the arrangement and the lack of rehearsal...I could go on about how not integrating Taylor into the band and the reharsals was an enormous missed opportunity, and had they done so these attempts at these songs wouldn't be quite so fraught with uncertainty, but...I won't.

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele
OK, allow me to just say this: I have waited, what...MY WHOLE LIFE to see Mick Taylor play Silver Train with the Rolling Stones. And then Ron Wood plays his guitar solo. WTF?

Thank you.

He could have played his guitar solo when it was his turn, but froze a bit - like Ronnie did. Mind you, this arrangement was different than in Tokyo, where Taylor played the only solo. This might have stirred things up a bit and eventually made it difficult for them.

He played with a different tuning, so he wouldn't have played THAT solo anyhow.

You're saying Taylor was supposed to play the first solo but froze, AND he was in the wrong tuning?

No, but by changing the arrangement they made it more difficult for themselves.

Not the wrong tuning (yes, "wrong", compared to the studio version), but a different tuning that requires a different playing style. This was open G, whilst Silver Train is in standard tuning.

The hesitation from both guitarists probably had to do with something weird going on with the rhythm section (just a guess).

You mean Taylor's solo on the record was in standard tuning (Keith was in open G, obviously). But Taylor almost always plays slide in standard tuning. I think the problem was the arrangement and the lack of rehearsal...I could go on about how not integrating Taylor into the band and the reharsals was an enormous missed opportunity, and had they done so these attempts at these songs wouldn't be quite so fraught with uncertainty, but...I won't.

My point was that his slide playing is different in open G. H e occasionally played slide in open G.

Stop Breakin' Down
Love In Vain (Ya Yas)
Moonlight Mile
Country Honk

Great video (60fps too, new on YT), will go check out the other one with better audio.

Not that bad, certainly not one of the trainwrecks of the past, hehe...what bothers me most is Mick spending 75% of his time reading the lyrics on the prompter, that surely can't help to make the song "live" and you'd think he could have been bothered to learn them before the show!

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Keith was clearly the best in this performance. Great rythmn, he saved the song. Mick's vocals and the solos wasn't very good.

I'm just glad to see that they played Silver Train again no matter who took the solo.

I haven't studied the vid yet but I've found it almost impossible to get a Strat in open G with decent string tension. Maybe he added 1-2 of the whammy bar springs, who knows, but strings #2,3,4 are tuned the same in standard or Open G so it can be tough to differentiate unless the player uses the top and bottom strings a lot.

Some people think Love In Vain (ya-ya's) MT is in open G because of the "All of my love.." licks in unison with MJ, but if you slant the slide (15th fret B string, 16th fret G string) all the licks are doable in standard.

Anyways, glad to see they gave him another number. Can the Spanish-flavored acoustic strum part on BS be far behind? Most confounding use of a musician ever on tour.

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winter
I haven't studied the vid yet but I've found it almost impossible to get a Strat in open G with decent string tension. Maybe he added 1-2 of the whammy bar springs, who knows, but strings #2,3,4 are tuned the same in standard or Open G so it can be tough to differentiate unless the player uses the top and bottom strings a lot.

Some people think Love In Vain (ya-ya's) MT is in open G because of the "All of my love.." licks in unison with MJ, but if you slant the slide (15th fret B string, 16th fret G string) all the licks are doable in standard.

Anyways, glad to see they gave him another number. Can the Spanish-flavored acoustic strum part on BS be far behind? Most confounding use of a musician ever on tour.

With all five springs it is easy to tune any Strat to open G, and Taylor's slide part on LIV from Ya Ya's IS in open G, not standard tuning.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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winter
I haven't studied the vid yet but I've found it almost impossible to get a Strat in open G with decent string tension. Maybe he added 1-2 of the whammy bar springs, who knows, but strings #2,3,4 are tuned the same in standard or Open G so it can be tough to differentiate unless the player uses the top and bottom strings a lot.

Some people think Love In Vain (ya-ya's) MT is in open G because of the "All of my love.." licks in unison with MJ, but if you slant the slide (15th fret B string, 16th fret G string) all the licks are doable in standard.

Anyways, glad to see they gave him another number. Can the Spanish-flavored acoustic strum part on BS be far behind? Most confounding use of a musician ever on tour.

With all five springs it is easy to tune any Strat to open G, and Taylor's slide part on LIV from Ya Ya's IS in open G, not standard tuning.

Mathijs

Easier to tune a Strat to open G than any other guitar? Just yanking your chain, Mathijs.

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alieb
I think the general consensus of this thread is: more messy deep(ish) cuts and less clean war horses!

Taking this a bit further, I was thinking about ST this afternoon and it crossed my mind that rare tracks like this one (they don't come much "rarer" with its 7 performances in 40 years) the Stones show their age, somehow the extraordinary illusion that it's still 1975 that works for the war horses and oft played songs just falters there...and it could have been worse without Keith's solid foundation.

Sure they could rehearse it enough that it works but why waste their time on this at 70+ when they can put up an amazing show that will please anyone in attendance...And like bv wrote, most of the pit was wondering what that song was about. It's just a lose/lose proposition.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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alieb
I think the general consensus of this thread is: more messy deep(ish) cuts and less clean war horses!

It made me want to listen to Satisfaction again. Great version from Brisbane

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winter
Some people think Love In Vain (ya-ya's) MT is in open G because of the "All of my love.." licks in unison with MJ, but if you slant the slide (15th fret B string, 16th fret G string) all the licks are doable in standard.

Taylor's slide style is incredibly precise. Like Duane Allman, he's always directly over the frets, he never 'leans' with the slide in the way that looser slide guitarists (Ronnie, Jimmy Page, Muddy Waters to an extent) do. Watch him playing on the Hyde Park video and on L&G, you'll see what I mean.

At Hyde Park in 1969, he played his SG - which was in standard tuning - on everything except I'm Yours, She's Mine, Love In Vain and No Expectations. For those songs, he used Keith's '59 Les Paul with the bigsby (the Keefburst), which was in Open G (and Open E for No Expectations). This is also how it was used on the '69 tour, hence Keith borrowing it back for Honky Tonk Women. By the '72 tour, Taylor had made the switch to playing slide in standard tuning. Silver Train's slide part is in standard tuning on GHS, and Taylor has continued to play this way more or less exclusively ever since. Like I said earlier, he always sounds more natural and spontaneous playing slide like this (to my ears, anyway), which begs the question of why he's now started doing Silver Train in Open G.

Perhaps someone suggested it would serve the song better, or maybe he's intentionally trying to tone down his playing somewhat in order not to step on the others' toes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-19 20:43 by Stoneburst.

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gotdablouse

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alieb
I think the general consensus of this thread is: more messy deep(ish) cuts and less clean war horses!

Taking this a bit further, I was thinking about ST this afternoon and it crossed my mind that rare tracks like this one (they don't come much "rarer" with its 7 performances in 40 years) the Stones show their age, somehow the extraordinary illusion that it's still 1975 that works for the war horses and oft played songs just falters there...and it could have been worse without Keith's solid foundation.

Sure they could rehearse it enough that it works but why waste their time on this at 70+ when they can put up an amazing show that will please anyone in attendance...And like bv wrote, most of the pit was wondering what that song was about. It's just a lose/lose proposition.

That's a nice way of putting it, gotdablouse.

The fact is that the "war horses" are their best songs, by and large. We all have our personal favorites (among mine is "Let It Loose," which they never could have played live, even in their prime), but "Tumbling Dice" is a better song than "Silver Train," and "Satisfaction" is a better song than "Jigsaw Puzzle."

So they zero in on their best songs, polish them to within an inch of their lives, and trot them out around the world in a reasonable facsimile of their former glory. They know not to spread themselves too thin; they are cagey enough to not let the cracks show.

The sense of the band being a nostalgia act, of being calcified, is not a function of the fact that they limit themselves to several dozen warhorses. It's instead a function that they cannot write hits any more and so their catalog is frozen in time.

And, for what it's worth, in my opinion the "Silver Train" at Brisbane (based, admittedly only on YouTube videos) was horrible. The band labored and the singer ... well, it's rare that you can say that Jagger is the worst thing about a Stones performance. It's cool they did it, I guess, and had I been there, perhaps I'd've smiled at their merely attempting it at this stage of their careers ... but damn, Mick, if you're going to sing it, sing it like you MEAN it!

All good points, and as you point out let's not lose track of the fact that the so called "war horses" are in fact the best songs!

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

This perfectly illustrates were The Stones are today.
They roll off their classics in their sleep and plays them decently.
When they play a song that's unusual in their set, it sounds like a first time in thr rehersal-room. Face it, they can't play together anymore, unless it's something they play every time they perform a show.

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Blueranger
This perfectly illustrates were The Stones are today.
They roll off their classics in their sleep and plays them decently.
When they play a song that's unusual in their set, it sounds like a first time in thr rehersal-room. Face it, they can't play together anymore, unless it's something they play every time they perform a show.

I agree in general, but songs like Worried About You, Memory Motel, Dead Flowers, Live With Me, She's So Cold, No Expectations and Factory Girl (+ many others) they always play beautifully.

That puzzles me. A straight rock tune like ST seems to be a problem, whilst more complex or dynamcs-craving songs like 2000 Light Years From Home or Out Of Control always works - even when Mick fails/is having monitor problems.

Can't believe all the negativity about Silver Train. Yes, it had some rough edges, but dammit it's rock and roll!!!

If you want to hear a perfect copy of the record, go to a Dire Straits or Yanni concert.

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Koen
Can't believe all the negativity about Silver Train. Yes, it had some rough edges, but dammit it's rock and roll!!!

If you want to hear a perfect copy of the record, go to a Dire Straits or Yanni concert.

LOL!

I think the problem many has with these ST-versions is that they sound terrified of making mistakes. That's NOT rock'n'roll.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-20 15:15 by DandelionPowderman.

They dont rehearse enough to pull these songs off.
I like that they give it a crack, but compare the rarities they do to Springsteen then its simply no contest.
The band isnt skilfull enough to pull it off.
Jagger is terrible here unfortunately.
I guess this just answers the question as to why dont The Stones play different songs each night...

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Eleanor Rigby
They dont rehearse enough to pull these songs off.
I like that they give it a crack, but compare the rarities they do to Springsteen then its simply no contest.
The band isnt skilfull enough to pull it off.
Jagger is terrible here unfortunately.
I guess this just answers the question as to why dont The Stones play different songs each night...

I think the backing band could play these songs in their sleep, just like Springsteen's band does with his obscure material.

But Bruce don't have a sound that relies on guitars. The Stones is probably one of the few bands left where everything they do is audible. If Keith hits a D wrongly, it affects the soundscape tremendously. That isn't the case with Bruce. He can hammer a chord - and do a windmill, but we will hardly hear it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-20 15:21 by DandelionPowderman.

But it still illustrates the band doesnt rehearse enough. They can nail the usual suspects (and even that is questionable), but the token rarity is tough work.

I bet they did less than 10 takes of Silver Train and thought "ok that should be enough".

I think there's more to it than that. I was outside the actual rehearsals most days when they brought out "Silver Train" or "Till the Next Goodbye" and they did work hard on them, many stops and go, several days in a row. The first sign that something was "off" is that when you listen to the Tokyo rehearsals of ST you've got the feeling they're starting from scratch completely, very puzzling...or not.

Like I wrote yesterday it's easy when you see them on stage, even from a couple of meters away, to lose sight of the fact that these guys are in their early 70s, an extraordinary feat when you think of it, but they are and obviously at that age, there's less of a drive/ability to learn/memorize new stuff. At least they gave it a shot ;-)

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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Koen
Can't believe all the negativity about Silver Train. Yes, it had some rough edges, but dammit it's rock and roll!!!

If you want to hear a perfect copy of the record, go to a Dire Straits or Yanni concert.

Does Yanni do Silver Train?

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Eleanor Rigby
But it still illustrates the band doesnt rehearse enough. They can nail the usual suspects (and even that is questionable), but the token rarity is tough work.

I bet they did less than 10 takes of Silver Train and thought "ok that should be enough".

Yep, I agree. They could rehearse more.

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gotdablouse
I think there's more to it than that. I was outside the actual rehearsals most days when they brought out "Silver Train" or "Till the Next Goodbye" and they did work hard on them, many stops and go, several days in a row. The first sign that something was "off" is that when you listen to the Tokyo rehearsals of ST you've got the feeling they're starting from scratch completely, very puzzling...or not.

Like I wrote yesterday it's easy when you see them on stage, even from a couple of meters away, to lose sight of the fact that these guys are in their early 70s, an extraordinary feat when you think of it, but they are and obviously at that age, there's less of a drive/ability to learn/memorize new stuff. At least they gave it a shot ;-)

On both occasions it sounded like they hadn't decided who was gonna do the intro...

Mick Taylor Carla Olson SILVER TRAIN !!!!

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71Tele

Does Yanni do Silver Train?

Yanni Winter does a decent version.

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DandelionPowderman
On both occasions it sounded like they hadn't decided who was gonna do the intro...

And, in Brisbane, like they hadn't agreed on who was meant to take which guitar solo.

I think Silver Train might come off better if Jagger played harp throughout (as he does on the record) rather than just at the end. It just doesn't sound as good without that part, and getting Ronnie to mimic his playing on slide doesn't work as well as it should.

Btw, I agree with your observation that it's strange how they can't do simple rock songs anymore, but can do convincing versions of more complex arrangements like Memory Motel and what have you. Again, Sway is a good case in point. It has three chords (or four, depending on how you play the turnaround), a medium tempo and is played in 4/4, yet they butcher the feel of it every time. Doesn't make sense.

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Stoneburst

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DandelionPowderman
On both occasions it sounded like they hadn't decided who was gonna do the intro...

And, in Brisbane, like they hadn't agreed on who was meant to take which guitar solo.

I think Silver Train might come off better if Jagger played harp throughout (as he does on the record) rather than just at the end. It just doesn't sound as good without that part, and getting Ronnie to mimic his playing on slide doesn't work as well as it should.

Btw, I agree with your observation that it's strange how they can't do simple rock songs anymore, but can do convincing versions of more complex arrangements like Memory Motel and what have you. Again, Sway is a good case in point. It has three chords (or four, depending on how you play the turnaround), a medium tempo and is played in 4/4, yet they butcher the feel of it every time. Doesn't make sense.

The timing of the intro bit on Sway is kind of tricky, to be fair.

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Koen

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71Tele

Does Yanni do Silver Train?

Yanni Winter does a decent version.

THAT'S FUNNY. At least I think so...

Peace,
Mr DJA

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Stoneburst

Btw, I agree with your observation that it's strange how they can't do simple rock songs anymore, but can do convincing versions of more complex arrangements like Memory Motel and what have you. Again, Sway is a good case in point. It has three chords (or four, depending on how you play the turnaround), a medium tempo and is played in 4/4, yet they butcher the feel of it every time. Doesn't make sense.

Actually I think the reason is quite obvious. It depends on their 'swagger' and they simply can't cut it like they used to. Once upon a time, no one could play so loose and, at the same time, be so precise in delivering pure garage rock 'n' roll with such honesty and feel. Play 'L.A. Friday' and there is the ultimate proof. Of course we can argument that they are old men and therefore play like they do, but that will only justify the question if it isn't time to hang it up, or at least play something which they actually CAN play, instead of embarrasing themselves with something they CAN'T play these days.

As one poster commented, I could go see Yanni or Dire Straits instead if I wanted to see and hear technically superior music, but I am not looking for perfection or great technique with the Stones in their playing. It has never been about that anyway, as we all know. What I need and miss with them is the afformentioned swagger and they simply have lost that with age.