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DandelionPowderman



Did the SG Deluxe release get a lame reception, compared with the Exile re-release???

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Witness

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Doxa

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Silver Dagger

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treaclefingers

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LoveYouLive

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RollingFreak
Exile. An incredible album, but its never my number 1 despite the fact that many others consider it theirs. Whether you like it or not, its got a few songs that are filler whereas their other 40 minute albums are concise masterpieces.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

Well said (written) and I completely agree.

Just to give this balance, I think you're both completely missing the point of EOMS. If you remove those songs, it just doesn't compete with the other Big 3...it's because of those songs that this is a top album, possibly the best double album of all time, certainly better than the Beatles White album.

EOMS is the exception to the rule, less is more.

Spot on. A man with good taste and good sense.

Yep. Spot on, Treacle. Very well put. A great EXILE discussion is over-all going on this thread, so let me take part a bit too. I take teh issue why it turned to be like it is, a double album.

I think we have to remember that the Stones had just released a couple of perfect 'single' albums, each showing an artistic progression, and in which the quality of song-writing have been extremely high. It wasn't that easy to come up with another 'best of' kind of album. I think especially STICKY FINGERS was almost too perfect album, setting the bar too high - like EXILE would show, the band was not any longer changing too much in sound - the Taylor band sound was kind of fixed by then, and Jagger/Richards workshop was not taking such huge steps forwards in difference any longer. How to follow such a perfect album in which each track is artistically speaking spot on, a perfect artistic statement of its own? If you have a hit material like "Tumbling Dice" to compete with "Brown Sugar", country songs like "Sweet Virginia" and "Torn & Frayed" to compete with "Wild Horses" and "Dead Flowers", what would happen?

I think the Stones actually recognized the problem - that of them not probably couldn't meet the challenge of STICKY FINGERS in its own field, not having enough of top-class material - and decided to change the tactics - to do something completely different, but still great. Remember, they still then were damn ambitious artistically, and each new record was treated as a artistic statemnt that needed to show some sort of progression, or at least something 'novel'. (Those were the days).

So, they decided to give us a more deeper, thorough-going exhibition of their sound and music in its all richness. Them looking more 'inside' than 'outside'. In where we could see the nuances and sides that probably were not so recognizable in their masterful individual songs earlier. The songs themselves didn't matter so much any longer, it was the way they were presented, each completing each other, and since there was enough of room for everything, there was no forced feeling that like 'every track needs to be radio-friendly, easily accessible'. It was more like let us play, and damn relaese, anything we seem to like, things we play by instinct, relying solely on our taste in good music. That turned to be their most ambitious, daring artistic statement ever. And greatest rock and roll album ever released.

To put it simply, and to repeat myself to emphasize the point, I think the uniqueness of EXILE is that it was not any longer the songs themselves, or their greatness, that was driving them. It was more the way they were presented. It was the total sound of the songs (taking alone or together), of which the 'written' songs themselves were just one component, that took command. In EXILE the Stones put all their creative energy and passion into performing, to the delivery. With that dedication, no matter what they played, it was perfect all the same. The timeless star of EXILE is the performance itself. Rock and roll cannot be played any better - it is the ultimate ideal of that. There is so much passion, incredible little nuances, odd choices - but taking together, it is a damn cohesive, strong musical statement by a precise vision. But to 'get' it, we need to hear the whole album, even though each track still represents the whole album - each having an "EXILE feel". STICKY FINGERS sounded very professional, but a bit uptight - The Stones showing that they are not just great song-writers, but masters in any given genre of modern rock, like a master thesis of rock band credibility. EXILE, by contrast, couldn't care less of the 'form' any longer, but just showing the band relying on their own insticts, and being damn proud of it. The result is much more relaxed than STICKY FINGERS.

But I can easily understand the the frustration the band had after EXILE. In that record they actually had used about the last card what they have offer, by letting us to see their musical intuition in its purity, playing anything they know from their heart. A bit like a stripper finally getting rid of last of her/his clothings, and knowing that after that it is impossible to excite the audience more any longer, and even repeat the act again so excitingly again... After using that card, they must have felt artistically empty. I think EXILE is a kind of thing one can honestly do only once. You can't fake that. To reveal your soul. It could be their biggest win ever, but probably a kind of Pyrrho's win in a long run artistic-wise.

- Doxa

Highly interesting and very well formulated, Doxa.

Dare I present one or two objections, though, even if I can't know for sure that what I will say is more certain. However, I wonder if the music was that deliberately made after such a masterplan. Rather I think one aspect of the recorded result might be that it happened more as a non-planned process. As such, probably more than its predecessors. To some extent as a consequence of their more or less improvised exile in France, not out of one leading idea what the result was to end up as. In the creative process, the musical output profitted from their talents in a less directed way under such circumstances. They counted on their ability. Come what may. After the many nights of recording hours ebbing out, they (Jagger and Richards) succeded in laying a certain "unstructured structure" on some of the heaps of recorded material.

Afterwards, after the release of EXILE, they seemed to feel drained from creating on that high level. But that exhaustion had not to arrive that way just then. It could have happened before that album or later. We tend to think that what happened, is what had to happen, I believe, and in some contexts that may be right to think as well. But not in this case, I wonder.

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Witness

Dare I present one or two objections, though, even if I can't know for sure that what I will say is more certain. However, I wonder if the music was that deliberately made after such a masterplan. Rather I think one aspect of the recorded result might be that it happened more as a non-planned process. As such, probably more than its predecessors. To some extent as a consequence of their more or less improvised exile in France, not out of one leading idea what the result was to end up as. In the creative process, the musical output profitted from their talents in a less directed way under such circumstances. They counted on their ability. Come what may. After the many nights of recording hours ebbing out, they (Jagger and Richards) succeded in laying a certain "unstructured structure" on some of the heaps of recorded material.

Afterwards, after the release of EXILE, they seemed to feel drained from creating on that high level. But that exhaustion had not to arrive that way just then. It could have happened before that album or later. We tend to think that what happened, is what had to happen, I believe, and in some contexts that may be right to think as well. But not in this case, I wonder.

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DandelionPowderman

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Dreamer

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Witness

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stonehearted
....................................
"Best foot forward" as they say. If Exile is supposed to be the all-time classic Stones album, then this is the recording they would want for the beginning listener to hear first, isn't it? But instead, aside from Tumbling Dice and Happy, Exile has been largely overlooked in terms of both vehicles that tend to reach the beginning listener first--compilation albums and concert set lists.

.................................

To that point of view, I would like to make a mild objection. I think that EXILE ON MAIN STREET may be a quite demanding album, sometimes even for a trained Stones listener. One will not spontaneously be charmed. You therefore need some background in Rolling Stones music, I guess, to be able to take it in. That is then not where you start, but rather where you probably arrive late in a tentative presentation over time to a listener that has not grown into the Rolling Stones musical universe. First then, he or she might learn to appreciate it.

Or might not...
It's important to remember that Exile was not a very well received album at the time. Not by fans and not by critics. And I think even the Stones liked to move on after that one. Mysteriously some years later it was rated higher by some critic and other critics joined and all of a sudden it was really fashionable to say it was their best album. The whole story about the recording locations played a significant role. It created a legend that wasn't felt when it was released. If that didn't happen I doubt that lots of people here would say it's such a good album. Lots of people still say that it's so good just because they think it's cool to say. Like you're an expert when you say it's their best thing... That's bs to me. When people were 14 while BB was released I believe them when they say that's their best and most important record. But when lots of people who were 14 when VL or BtB or SW was released keep saying Exile is their best I just think they are repeating what their prescription says.

It's also an album that grows on you - slowly. No immediate hits, but a collection of songs, sequenced in a way that doesn't get to you right away.

I'd say that the collection of songs, and how it was put together, is the reason for it not becoming an immediate hit among the reviewers and the fans.

Some of the songs aren't that great, standing on their own (Casino Boogie, Hip Shake, Just Wanna See, Torn And Frayed), but within the wholeness they are important ingredients to the album.

Had they put a single album together with, for instance:

Rocks Off
Rip This Joint
Tumbling Dice
Happy
Sweet Virginia
All Down The Line
Let It Loose
Ventilator Blues
Shine A Light
Loving Cup

...then I think the reviews would have been different back then as well.

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71Tele
I think the problem some people have with Exile (though I am not claiming to speak for any particular person here) is that perhaps they are more used to classic "rock" music and therefore the soulful black vibe of songs like Casino Boogie, Hip Shake, Just Want To See His Face, and Turd don't resonate with them. These songs are a juke joint swampy summer night, with a flask in the back pocket and a blade in the boot. The music at times can barely be heard over the crash of pool balls, bottles breaking, and the shouts of joy (or anger). But the beat is always there: churning, throbbing, incessant. The air is full of sex, menace, and possibilities. So yeah, if you don't dig that and want "rock hits" served to you on a platter, I can see how you would mistake these essential songs as "filler" and yearn for the safe harbor of more familiar musical territory...If that makes me a "snob", so be it.

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Doxa

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Witness

Good points, and I don't consider them as objections to my view, but more like adding to it.

Yeah, the whole creation of EXILE was a kind of odd project, and the way it turned to be, being even a double album, might happen in very late of the process. I think the "masterplan" - the one I kind of reconstructed theoretically - was something they decided in teh very last minute when seeing what kind of material they had available, based for example, on disorganized, free-going Nellcote sessions. I think they - Jagger? - weren't too satisfied with what they had in the can, and probably decided that let's turn the waekness into strength - let us release not LET IT BLEED or STICKY FINGERS type of album, based on strong, commercially potential individual songs, but let's go more avantgarde, and do our own 'concept' album relying just whatever we have come up with lately. And let's make it double, to emphasize its artistic statement - we are not up to hit singles but more ambitious (a move which might also compansate the lack of radio-friendly ace song material, as odd it might sound). This also offered - or forced - them a chance to use songs that weren't fitting - or good enough - for LET IT BLEED and STICKY FINGERS. Probably this all came out of necessity, due to the nature of the circumstances they tried to work lately (which caused also teh material to sound like it did).

For the second point, I think my earlier post indicated that I actually think that the artistic frustration had happened before EXILE, and EXILE is a kind of miracle using that frustration as a driving force. Had Jagger/Richards continued as strong and high profile and ambitious song-writers as they were from BEGGARS BANQUET to STICKY FINGERS, probably peaking in LET IT BLEED, we wouldn't have gotten such 'avantgarde' sounding album as EXILE. The band was 'forced' not just to use the left-overs of yester-year, but also to emphasize the delivery (Keith, for example, his Open G tuning) and the sound, since the songs themselves they were writing now weren't so stunning or era-defining anymore. There simply was no "Gimme Shelter", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Honky Tonk Women", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Brown Sugar", etc. caliber of songs any longer. As a result we got an ambitious study on Americana, The Stones making original interpretation any form of music America had produced and inspired them.

I think one charm of EXILE is that many songs are rather non-ambitious efforts, based on rather simple ideas or even jams, but it is simply the feel on them, and inspired delivery, full of rich nuances, all cooked tastely, that makes it unique. It sounds so damn effortless, natural, which probably is due to the way they were written and recorded. They don't try too hard to write any masterpieces, show progress or anything, but just enjoy playing whatever pleases them.

- Doxa

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Dreamer

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DandelionPowderman

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Dreamer

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Witness

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stonehearted
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"Best foot forward" as they say. If Exile is supposed to be the all-time classic Stones album, then this is the recording they would want for the beginning listener to hear first, isn't it? But instead, aside from Tumbling Dice and Happy, Exile has been largely overlooked in terms of both vehicles that tend to reach the beginning listener first--compilation albums and concert set lists.

.................................

To that point of view, I would like to make a mild objection. I think that EXILE ON MAIN STREET may be a quite demanding album, sometimes even for a trained Stones listener. One will not spontaneously be charmed. You therefore need some background in Rolling Stones music, I guess, to be able to take it in. That is then not where you start, but rather where you probably arrive late in a tentative presentation over time to a listener that has not grown into the Rolling Stones musical universe. First then, he or she might learn to appreciate it.

Or might not...
It's important to remember that Exile was not a very well received album at the time. Not by fans and not by critics. And I think even the Stones liked to move on after that one. Mysteriously some years later it was rated higher by some critic and other critics joined and all of a sudden it was really fashionable to say it was their best album. The whole story about the recording locations played a significant role. It created a legend that wasn't felt when it was released. If that didn't happen I doubt that lots of people here would say it's such a good album. Lots of people still say that it's so good just because they think it's cool to say. Like you're an expert when you say it's their best thing... That's bs to me. When people were 14 while BB was released I believe them when they say that's their best and most important record. But when lots of people who were 14 when VL or BtB or SW was released keep saying Exile is their best I just think they are repeating what their prescription says.

It's also an album that grows on you - slowly. No immediate hits, but a collection of songs, sequenced in a way that doesn't get to you right away.

I'd say that the collection of songs, and how it was put together, is the reason for it not becoming an immediate hit among the reviewers and the fans.

Some of the songs aren't that great, standing on their own (Casino Boogie, Hip Shake, Just Wanna See, Torn And Frayed), but within the wholeness they are important ingredients to the album.

Had they put a single album together with, for instance:

Rocks Off
Rip This Joint
Tumbling Dice
Happy
Sweet Virginia
All Down The Line
Let It Loose
Ventilator Blues
Shine A Light
Loving Cup

...then I think the reviews would have been different back then as well.

When you grow up with Dirty Work and Steel Wheels and suddenly read about the new dawn of the latest 'believe' (that became a religon) from around the late seventies/early eighties that in retrospect everything was so great about EOMS (band, bandmembers, location, producer, drugs etc) I can imagine you like to give the album another listen or two. And because the next day your RS peers are saying 'masterpiece huh?!?!' you more or less (hey you like the RS!) acknowledge and listen again to hear why it's a masterpiece. Next day someone says 'man absolutely their best album huh!?!?' (they read the same article!) and you listen again and after that another friend who also read the article goes 'sheesh I think Happy is their best song ever' and now you're getting into the groove and when that's followed by your best friend saying 'ohw god this really is their most important album ever' well it's no coincidence you start reading more about where it was recorded and omg! how they all walked in and out of Nellcote and having breakfast at 1:00pm and man you listen again and continue to read it's labelled a legendary album recorded by a legendary band with legendary members by a legendary producer in a legendary environment and the fact that you are now listening again to a record that's so legendary that even all your 14 year old friends in 1994 say it's a legendary album...

In short: when you say 'It's an album that grows on you'
I can imagine...

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Silver Dagger
Man, from almost needing to call the sheriff in I think we need to now consider calling in the scientists. This is getting complicated. I'm off down the bar for a beer. See you later.

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Dreamer

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Silver Dagger
Man, from almost needing to call the sheriff in I think we need to now consider calling in the scientists. This is getting complicated. I'm off down the bar for a beer. See you later.

When things get 'complicated' you need beer and a sheriff..? I'll remember that for next time I see you here so I'll use cartoons or something..

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Dreamer

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71Tele
I think the problem some people have with Exile (though I am not claiming to speak for any particular person here) is that perhaps they are more used to classic "rock" music and therefore the soulful black vibe of songs like Casino Boogie, Hip Shake, Just Want To See His Face, and Turd don't resonate with them. These songs are a juke joint swampy summer night, with a flask in the back pocket and a blade in the boot. The music at times can barely be heard over the crash of pool balls, bottles breaking, and the shouts of joy (or anger). But the beat is always there: churning, throbbing, incessant. The air is full of sex, menace, and possibilities. So yeah, if you don't dig that and want "rock hits" served to you on a platter, I can see how you would mistake these essential songs as "filler" and yearn for the safe harbor of more familiar musical territory...If that makes me a "snob", so be it.

To me Exile is just overrated. I don't have problems with it. Why should black vibes not resonate with me?? Because I think EOMS is overrated???
While 'not claiming to' you really are claiming a lot. But don't worry: I don't pity you...and I won't say it makes you a "snob"..
"So be it"...

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele
Those who think Exile has "filler" just don't understand what Exile is all about. I pity them.

They don't understand how YOU think, but they're having their own perspective on how the album is

I agree with you, of course, but let's respect other takes on this. It's just an album..

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71Tele

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Dreamer

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71Tele
I think the problem some people have with Exile (though I am not claiming to speak for any particular person here) is that perhaps they are more used to classic "rock" music and therefore the soulful black vibe of songs like Casino Boogie, Hip Shake, Just Want To See His Face, and Turd don't resonate with them. These songs are a juke joint swampy summer night, with a flask in the back pocket and a blade in the boot. The music at times can barely be heard over the crash of pool balls, bottles breaking, and the shouts of joy (or anger). But the beat is always there: churning, throbbing, incessant. The air is full of sex, menace, and possibilities. So yeah, if you don't dig that and want "rock hits" served to you on a platter, I can see how you would mistake these essential songs as "filler" and yearn for the safe harbor of more familiar musical territory...If that makes me a "snob", so be it.

To me Exile is just overrated. I don't have problems with it. Why should black vibes not resonate with me?? Because I think EOMS is overrated???
While 'not claiming to' you really are claiming a lot. But don't worry: I don't pity you...and I won't say it makes you a "snob"..
"So be it"...

To each his own, but I still feel sorry for what some people are missing. It isn't meant as an insult regardless that a couple of people are choosing to take what I have said that way...their problem, not mine.

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Dreamer
In a way it's kinda funny you're doing it again and I think Stonehearted was right.

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71Tele
[quotethey don't understand what Exile is all abouDandelionPowderman]

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71Tele
Those who think Exile has "filler" just don't understand what Exile is all about. I pity them.

They don't understand how YOU think, but they're having their own perspective on how the album is

I agree with you, of course, but let's respect other takes on this. It's just an album..

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RollingFreak
Exile. An incredible album, but its never my number 1 despite the fact that many others consider it theirs. Whether you like it or not, its got a few songs that are filler whereas their other 40 minute albums are concise masterpieces.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

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stewedandkeefed

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RollingFreak
Exile. An incredible album, but its never my number 1 despite the fact that many others consider it theirs. Whether you like it or not, its got a few songs that are filler whereas their other 40 minute albums are concise masterpieces.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

You may have had to say it but you are wrong. Along with London Calling, Exile is the one of only two perfect double albums

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stewedandkeefed

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RollingFreak
Exile. An incredible album, but its never my number 1 despite the fact that many others consider it theirs. Whether you like it or not, its got a few songs that are filler whereas their other 40 minute albums are concise masterpieces.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

You may have had to say it but you are wrong. Along with London Calling, Exile is the one of only two perfect double albums

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Silver Dagger
I think maybe it's an age thing. I guess if you lived through the golden age you're probably gonna feel more passionate about records that you bought at that time. I know I do.

I was lucky enough to have bought Exile more or less in the week when it came out. I was 15 years old at the time and it changed my life. It really did.

So maybe if Some Girls was the first album you bought you're gonna feel more passionate about that.

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andrewt
I will venture this about Exile. While it remains my favourite Stones album, that's simply my preference. What I don't think is in doubt is that it is the Stones most influential album, in terms of its effect on rock music in the following decades, and while this was unintentional for the most part, it is the only Stones record that was ahead of its time.

With the legion of bands that have since been described as "Stonesy", that "Stonesy" pretty much implies the aesthetic of Exile. (with it's roots in earlier tracks such as Bitch, Brown Sugar, Let It Bleed, Live With Me) But moreso it's Exile's murky mix, the buried vocals, the layers of groove carrying the song, the decadent rogue imagery, all that has spawned a legion of imitators, and has influenced subgenres from britpop,to shoegaze, punk, and grunge.

For that alone I don't think it can be overrated. As an added bonus it speaks directly to my soul.

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Doxa

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Silver Dagger

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treaclefingers

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LoveYouLive

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RollingFreak
Exile. An incredible album, but its never my number 1 despite the fact that many others consider it theirs. Whether you like it or not, its got a few songs that are filler whereas their other 40 minute albums are concise masterpieces.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

Well said (written) and I completely agree.

Just to give this balance, I think you're both completely missing the point of EOMS. If you remove those songs, it just doesn't compete with the other Big 3...it's because of those songs that this is a top album, possibly the best double album of all time, certainly better than the Beatles White album.

EOMS is the exception to the rule, less is more.

Spot on. A man with good taste and good sense.

Yep. Spot on, Treacle. Very well put. A great EXILE discussion is over-all going on this thread, so let me take part a bit too. I take teh issue why it turned to be like it is, a double album.

I think we have to remember that the Stones had just released a couple of perfect 'single' albums, each showing an artistic progression, and in which the quality of song-writing have been extremely high. It wasn't that easy to come up with another 'best of' kind of album. I think especially STICKY FINGERS was almost too perfect album, setting the bar too high - like EXILE would show, the band was not any longer changing too much in sound - the Taylor band sound was kind of fixed by then, and Jagger/Richards workshop was not taking such huge steps forwards in difference any longer. How to follow such a perfect album in which each track is artistically speaking spot on, a perfect artistic statement of its own? If you have a hit material like "Tumbling Dice" to compete with "Brown Sugar", country songs like "Sweet Virginia" and "Torn & Frayed" to compete with "Wild Horses" and "Dead Flowers", what would happen?

I think the Stones actually recognized the problem - that of them not probably couldn't meet the challenge of STICKY FINGERS in its own field, not having enough of top-class material - and decided to change the tactics - to do something completely different, but still great. Remember, they still then were damn ambitious artistically, and each new record was treated as a artistic statemnt that needed to show some sort of progression, or at least something 'novel'. (Those were the days).

So, they decided to give us a more deeper, thorough-going exhibition of their sound and music in its all richness. Them looking more 'inside' than 'outside'. In where we could see the nuances and sides that probably were not so recognizable in their masterful individual songs earlier. The songs themselves didn't matter so much any longer, it was the way they were presented, each completing each other, and since there was enough of room for everything, there was no forced feeling that like 'every track needs to be radio-friendly, easily accessible'. It was more like let us play, and damn relaese, anything we seem to like, things we play by instinct, relying solely on our taste in good music. That turned to be their most ambitious, daring artistic statement ever. And greatest rock and roll album ever released.

To put it simply, and to repeat myself to emphasize the point, I think the uniqueness of EXILE is that it was not any longer the songs themselves, or their greatness, that was driving them. It was more the way they were presented. It was the total sound of the songs (taking alone or together), of which the 'written' songs themselves were just one component, that took command. In EXILE the Stones put all their creative energy and passion into performing, to the delivery. With that dedication, no matter what they played, it was perfect all the same. The timeless star of EXILE is the performance itself. Rock and roll cannot be played any better - it is the ultimate ideal of that. There is so much passion, incredible little nuances, odd choices - but taking together, it is a damn cohesive, strong musical statement by a precise vision. But to 'get' it, we need to hear the whole album, even though each track still represents the whole album - each having an "EXILE feel". STICKY FINGERS sounded very professional, but a bit uptight - The Stones showing that they are not just great song-writers, but masters in any given genre of modern rock, like a master thesis of rock band credibility. EXILE, by contrast, couldn't care less of the 'form' any longer, but just showing the band relying on their own insticts, and being damn proud of it. The result is much more relaxed than STICKY FINGERS.

But I can easily understand the the frustration the band had after EXILE. In that record they actually had used about the last card what they have offer, by letting us to see their musical intuition in its purity, playing anything they know from their heart. A bit like a stripper finally getting rid of last of her/his clothings, and knowing that after that it is impossible to excite the audience more any longer, and even repeat the act again so excitingly again... After using that card, they must have felt artistically empty. I think EXILE is a kind of thing one can honestly do only once. You can't fake that. To reveal your soul. It could be their biggest win ever, but probably a kind of Pyrrho's win in a long run artistic-wise.

- Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


You can't say "they don't understand what Exile is all about", because that's only based on your opinion. They might not agree with what you believe Exile is all about - there is an important distinction which I'm sure you see very clearly

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lem motlow
tele is exactly right- if you think some of the songs on exile should'nt be on there you are clueless.plain and simple.

its not a matter of opinion-the record is a perfect rock and roll masterpiece without a flaw.if you think some of the songs shouldnt be there you dont understand the record and its a fair assumption that you are a fan of the stones yet they're not your favorite band.
you probably dont completely understand their music or its not your main focus of interest as far as rock and roll is concerned.

if they are your favorite band and you think exile contains"filler" you still have a lot of learning to do.