The "piano keys" claim is BS. If you play a nice lick in A (5th position) but you find it hard to sign along to, what do you do? You move "down" to the 4th position and you play it in G#...
Unlike guitar players who rely on open chords (G A E C D) if you can double-stops fairly high on the enck you can adjust the key of the song in no time. And YES you can play in G# or C# or A#...

Ahhhhh G#? Hey that's a piano key, you imposter, you stole that lick!
Yeah right!

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stonehearted
<<Just because someone comes to a conclusion based on their opinion does not make it fact. Many people have run with Keith's opinion for over 27 years without doing much of any research to prove or disclaim it.>>

Not just Keith, but Johnnie Johnson himself, who states that he was in the room with CB helping to write the music. Fact: CB couldn't have done it without JJ. Why is that so hard to accept?

Tilt!

CBII

And "Sympathy" is in E so we're sure it's been written on guitar but Shelter is in C#, a piano key.Shall we imply Keff stole the main from Nicky?

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CBII

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DeanGoodman

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CBII

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

Absolutely. T-Bone Walker, Louis Jordan, etc. And I'm sure Johnnie cites plenty of influences in his book. There is some scholarly dissection of Chuck's riffs on the stevehoffman.tv forum here, with some great Youtube clips: [forums.stevehoffman.tv]

Pretty much bolsters what I've said in this thread and in the past. I'd never seen Steve Hoffman's forum before but the contributors ran the gambit.

From Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Carl Hogan and playing in big band keys. All these things have been openly and proudly admitted influences. Keith Richard used the Riffs, Licks and styling of the people that he grew up listening to and has stated as such. Sounds very similar if you ask me.

"What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun."

The antenna picks it up - then you pass it on.

One can choose to laugh of this, or one can see this as how music both is preserved and evolved.

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dcba
And "Sympathy" is in E so we're sure it's been written on guitar but Shelter is in C#, a piano key.Shall we imply Keff stole the main from Nicky?

Ever hear the saying "Good writers borrow, great writers steal"?

For people who don't play guitar (re piano keys):

When you play rock'n'roll/boogie, you'll often use barre chords. It's true that playing in A, E or D is somewhat easier. But if you use barre chords, like Chuck, it doesn't matter if you play in E, G or B. It's all the same.

For Keith's GS it's the same. The riff (how he plays it live) is partly barre chords, descending. The key doesn't matter, as the formations will be the same on a different spot on the guitar neck.

One reason for choosing an unusual key is often that it suits the range of your vocals better - like with a capo.

The "piano keys" is a misunderstanding when it comes to Chuck, imo.

That said, I don't doubt that Johnnie was instrumental in making music with him. Not at all...

<<For people who don't play guitar (re piano keys):>>

But Keith does play guitar, and he's the one who said it. I merely passed it along via video clip.

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stonehearted
<<For people who don't play guitar (re piano keys):>>

But Keith does play guitar, and he's the one who said it. I merely passed it along via video clip.

Exactly!

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stonehearted
<<For people who don't play guitar (re piano keys):>>

But Keith does play guitar, and he's the one who said it. I merely passed it along via video clip.

As you, I and the rest of this board know, Keith isn't always right. Why would he write songs in B and F himself, because of Stu?

<<Keith isn't always right. Why would he write songs in B and F himself>>

To be experimental--that's his jazzy boho side. But why did he lift a horn riff from Martha and the Vandellas and make a simple E-A guitar hook out of it, and make it work? Because, in rock, you can, and it works.

Summertime Blues, that's E, D, A, basic simple stuff. Paul McCartney tells the story of when the Beatles were first learning guitar chords, they had the basic E, D, and A rock chords down, but had to ride all the way across Liverpool in a bus one day to see someone who could teach them the B7 chord, which seemed so exotic to them at the time. When the punks said "Here's three chords--now go form a band", B and F were not among those chords. Steve Jones in the Sex Pistols played in A, E, D, G--he refused to deal with those "Beatle chords". Jazz is complexity, rock is simplicity--which is why, ultimately, there have been more rock musicians than jazz musicians: because rock speaks the language of the vernacular, whereas the virtuoso leanings of jazz have become the musical language of the elite.

Those "piano keys" that Keith speaks of are referred to by that term because they are easier to work out in a complimentary fashion on a piano, and are more difficult to blend with the more basic "rock" chords of A, E, D, and G.

Here's an example of how the same things work differently on different instruments. The Doors recording Riders On The Storm for their LA Woman album. In developing the song, Ray Manzarek initially played the bass notes on his organ bass, and the E minor to A major progression was as easy as chop sticks on his keyboard bass. But when they bring in Jerry Scheff, Elvis' bass player, who is asked to play that E minor to A major progression on his electric bass guitar, Scheff replied, "Oh, man, that's impossible!"

Ray relates that story from 1:19 in the clip below.





So, if Johnnie Johnson is creating the arrangements for Chuck's songs, then Chuck is going to be playing in the style of what Johnnie comes up with from the piano--like he did with JJ's instrumental that CB turned into the song Wee Wee Hours.

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dcba
And "Sympathy" is in E so we're sure it's been written on guitar but Shelter is in C#, a piano key.Shall we imply Keff stole the main from Nicky?

No but he could very well have been inspired by this song from 1968 which they covered in 1969 and which maybe was something Keith listened to during Anitas and Micks Performance, a song with a fitting title for what probably went thru his mind:

I know all this stuff, Stonehearted. Just trying to explain that barre chords and boogie (Berry) is played the same way no matter which key you choose to play em in.

To play the E, A-stuff, he could have used a capo if he wanted some open strings.

These guys were beyond this beginner-level when they wrote their best songs, don't you think?

That said, Keith has been a master to get the chords ringing the way he wanted. Then again, he used the capo a lot...

ROCKMAN

<<These guys were beyond this beginner-level when they wrote their best songs, don't you think?>>

Speaking of "best songs" I feel that Chuck Berry wrote his best material when working with Johnnie Johnson--in piano keys.

Or "vocal keys", written by a pianist. We simply don't know for sure

He DID write and record songs into the late 70´s, Rock it being released in 1979.

Maybe his creativity slowly ran dry like it tends to do or maybe he just got a bit frustrated - we the crowds and buyers wanted to hear the familiar stuff over and over again. He did´t get much airplay in the 70´s with his new records either.

How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane? Yet he, like Chuck, kept performing, his last act being a Paul Masson wine commercial.

The first and the best eye-witness talking about stealing your bandmates ideas and songs is Keith Richards, no doubt about that!

Chuck Berry was interviewed in the September 2, 2010 issue of Rolling Stone Magazine where he said he did still write music but didn't release it because people would steal it (the ideas, not through pirating).

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kristian
He DID write and record songs into the late 70´s, Rock it being released in 1979.

Maybe his creativity slowly ran dry like it tends to do or maybe he just got a bit frustrated - we the crowds and buyers wanted to hear the familiar stuff over and over again. He did´t get much airplay in the 70´s with his new records either.

How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane? Yet he, like Chuck, kept performing, his last act being a Paul Masson wine commercial.

The first and the best eye-witness talking about stealing your bandmates ideas and songs is Keith Richards, no doubt about that!

Did Keith steal his bandmates' ideas?

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DandelionPowderman

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kristian
He DID write and record songs into the late 70´s, Rock it being released in 1979.

Maybe his creativity slowly ran dry like it tends to do or maybe he just got a bit frustrated - we the crowds and buyers wanted to hear the familiar stuff over and over again. He did´t get much airplay in the 70´s with his new records either.

How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane? Yet he, like Chuck, kept performing, his last act being a Paul Masson wine commercial.

The first and the best eye-witness talking about stealing your bandmates ideas and songs is Keith Richards, no doubt about that!

Did Keith steal his bandmates' ideas?

He admits so himself: "...we're thick as thieves."

<<How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane?>>

The follow-ups were critically acclaimed. Touch of Evil, 17 years after, is considered a classic and plays in art houses to this day, as does his 1962 adaptation of The Trial.

Besides, there's more to his story than just the mere fact of his best-known director's credit--he was in and out of the film business. There was a 15-year gap after the Citizen Kane era where he went back to radio before returning to film, whereas Chuck Berry remained in the same business all those years. There really is no comparison.

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Dreamer

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DandelionPowderman

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kristian
He DID write and record songs into the late 70´s, Rock it being released in 1979.

Maybe his creativity slowly ran dry like it tends to do or maybe he just got a bit frustrated - we the crowds and buyers wanted to hear the familiar stuff over and over again. He did´t get much airplay in the 70´s with his new records either.

How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane? Yet he, like Chuck, kept performing, his last act being a Paul Masson wine commercial.

The first and the best eye-witness talking about stealing your bandmates ideas and songs is Keith Richards, no doubt about that!

Did Keith steal his bandmates' ideas?

He admits so himself: "...we're thick as thieves."

Dreamer, the wordsmith

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stonehearted
<<How many movies did Orson Welles direct after Citizen Kane?>>

The follow-ups were critically acclaimed. Touch of Evil, 17 years after, is considered a classic and plays in art houses to this day, as does his 1962 adaptation of The Trial.

Besides, there's more to his story than just the mere fact of his best-known director's credit--he was in and out of the film business. There was a 15-year gap after the Citizen Kane era where he went back to radio before returning to film, whereas Chuck Berry remained in the same business all those years. There really is no comparison.

But there is a comparison, you just did it and by doing so ended up belittling Chuck. Orson Welles is a hero of mine, too. Somehow I think his acting is even more impressive than his directing. Harry Lime made the film The Third Man despite the fact, that OW appears only in 10 minutes of the whole production. I´m satisfied with what both great characters have achieved and would´t mind hearing/ seeing more - but please, no Citizen Kane #5 or The Grandson of Harry Lime. Most of us were just born too late to be at the Brooklyn Paramount in 1956 when Chuck re-invented the Duck Walk. Maybe the youngest among us will be able to enter the time machine and enjoy those times

<<But there is a comparison, you just did it and by doing so ended up belittling Chuck.>>

No, I disputed the comparison and was not belittling CB.

[www.billboard.com]

He had been working. No idea if this will be released.

Well this will explain the problem if you were extremely successful...........composing new and better songs

Asked why he has recorded so sporadically in recent years, Berry admits, "It's laziness, or after you've had so much success, you get slack on the ability and the initiative, you know? And it's not right! It's my profession -- it's what I should be doing."

__________________________

Right, what happened to this record? I remember being excited about it...over 10 years ago.

CBII, got any info on this (that you will share)? Should folks like me stop hoping for this record?

Just remembered I interviewed him about the planned album in mid-2002, the year after the Billboard story. He was hoping to release it that year. I dug up the tape, transcribed it for the first time, and here it is. Not exactly Pulitzer-worthy given the chaotic circumstances, but it was a fun chat, for me at least: [www.deangoodman.com]. (There may be issues on mobile platforms.)

Another thread reminded me I interviewed Grace Slick at length about retirement, her sex life and Altamont. I'm working on that now.

Keith meant something completely else with ‘piano keys’ and to what Johnnie Johnson wrote exactly. Keith never meant that Bflat or Aflat is a piano key per se. It is true that most guitarists will start out in E and A positions, but shifting to any other key for any half-experienced player is easy to do. You do that for two reasons: to fit the vocal better, AND to make it sound better. Berry’s Boogie style playing just sounds better in Bflat, B or C played halfway on the neck, just as Richards open G work sounds best in the key of B. Play JJF in A and is sucks.

What Richards meant, and has stated various times, is that the typical Berry intros like on Bye Bye Johnnie or Johnnie B Goode are typical piano riffs. Listen to any good Boogie Woogie piano player, and the melody lines he’ll play are all variations on what we now call the Berry intro. It’s this playing around the major en pentatonic keys, with the fast half notes (say a fast C/Csharp thrill in the key of A) thrown in.

Richards states Berry got that from Johnson. I doubt that. I think T-Bone Walker was a much greater influence on Berry, and Walker was playing the Boogie-style intro’s and solo’s already in the 1930’s.

Mathijs

I see Chuck all over this....

Why did Chuck Berry stop writing music?
He got tired of changin the lyrics to the three tunes he wrote...

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