@mr_dja - I think you are spot on. The other factor is that Chuck was a complete touring professional when brought in to play/conduct/etc. If you have to deal with your own equipment show after show, the last thing you'd want is to have to deal with tuning and damage to a real piano. The Stones can afford it, that is not the issue. The issue is consistency. It just isn't worth it.

And on that note, it really depends on the song and keyboard Chuck uses as to whether it sounds any good. Sad Sad Sad, which IS a great rocker, starts off terribly throughout 89/90 because of Chuck's terrible keyboard tone....





It really does sound like a dang Casio keyboard! TERRIBLE 80s sound. Contrast that to the guitars leading the band...

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Palace Revolution 2000

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latvianinexile
Looks like a B3 to me

Is that Stones stage?

I wouldn't have posted this pic in this thread if it wasn't. See photos and videos from the 2013 tour. Tim Ries is playing the B3 on some songs.

Playing a grand piano or an Electric piano makes a big difference. The sound is completely different.

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latvianinexile
Looks like a B3 to me

photos do not lie . that is a B 3 !!!

B-3 and Wurlitzer Electric piano are in the photo... Here's the scoop. While I'd vote for a genuine piano myself most touring bands that appear to have a grand piano are just using the shell and the keyboard is still connected to midi for a digital sound anyhow... Jagger probably wants the stage space so they don't try to pretend.. Carrying an actual piano involves touring with a piano tuner and the instrument needs to be tweaked many times before the show as it adjusts to the temperature of the arena. I've heard nightmare 80's road stories of Bruce Springsteen's people having to thaw a piano with a blow torch after it sat in a trailer in a frozen parking lot. I love Chuck and his work with The Allmans, Clapton and Sea Level. I have no explanation as to why he's dreadful in The Stones, a band with so many brilliant keyboard parts to interrupt.

Nobs -> I don’t know if your comment was directed to me or not but since the timing was so close, I’ll respond. I am not a Chuck Hater. I actually like him. He’s the only on-stage “Stone” I’ve ever met and he treated me wonderfully during our brief encounter. Furthermore, I’ll go so far as to give him credit for being an important reason that the Stones are still functioning together as a band. There is no doubt that he is the guy that the Stones want and I am truly thankful they have him and are comfortable with him.

His Majesty -> Would you say the same if Charlie started playing digital drums? I won’t disagree that there probably isn’t much sonic difference in a stadium between the top of the line digital controllers and MIDI samples that Chuck has access to in 2014. HOWEVER, a piano is a percussion instrument while a keyboard is simply a digital controller that accesses digital samples. Just about any PIANO player you come in contact with can give you a laundry list of the differences between a piano and a keyboard. Even players who come from an organ/keyboard background tend to be able to discuss the topic at length though I’ve found that many of those players are more apt to be happy that they are now able to get good piano sounds out of a digital keyboard than lamenting the loss of their beloved acoustic instrument (as some piano players/lovers will).

24fps -> Good insight from Chuck’s point of view that I hadn’t added into my equation. (I love how this board makes me THINK sometimes!) Consistency is truly the name of the game now isn’t it? THANK GOD they haven’t asked Charlie to use triggers in the name of “consistent” sound. I can’t imagine that the Sympathy percussion tracks they used at one point were ever a test to consider using sequences to fill out their sound throughout the show but now that the thought has entered my brain, it makes me shudder to think.

We’ll never know what would have happened if Stu would have lived and had a say in what keyboard instruments actually made it on stage. Also, who’s to say that they wouldn’t have kept a real piano around if the MIDI/Sampling technology hadn’t progressed as far as it has. Now doubt in my mind that in ’89 and before, the technology was not good enough. Beginning in the early ‘90’s and continuing forward, the technology has become much better to where, I believe His Majesty to be correct in that there isn’t much noticeable sonic difference anymore.

There is something to say though for the “feel” of the instrument though. I am not even close to being enough of a keyboard/piano player to have an intelligent conversation on THAT subject although I’ve listened in on some of my friends’ conversations in the past. I know for me, and I imagine many of the other guitarists & bassists here, there is a difference between the feel of playing and electric guitar/bass & an acoustic guitar/bass (Drummers, I’m sure could speak on this topic as well). Sometimes it will literally make me play things differently just because of the way the instrument reacts to your hands & fingers. For any of us non-keyboardists to think that these differences don’t exist in pianos vs. keyboards I think would be naïve.

One more thought before closing… As much as some of us wish that the World’s Greatest Rock & Roll Band had an actual piano (in addition to a B-3, Wurlitzer, Rhodes & maybe a MIDI controller), in their defense, I believe that when we’re seeing actual pianists as headliners, although the box on stage may look like a concert grand piano, the guts inside that box, many times, are actually digital controllers. Again, we’d need an expert to tell us for sure, but I believe that people such as Elton John & Billy Joel are NOT using real acoustic pianos on stage 100% of the time (Experts?). I’m not sure if that’s as true for someone from the old-er school, like Jerry Lee Lewis for example. If actual headlining pianists are saying that the sound, feel & consistency, of electronic instruments are adequate for THEIR needs, I’d think the decision makers in the Stones organization are well within their rights to make the same decision.

Pretty sure that’s enough on this topic for now!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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TheGreek

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latvianinexile
Looks like a B3 to me

photos do not lie . that is a B 3 !!!

Any insiders have any knowledge of an actual Leslie cabinet anywhere either backstage or under the stage somewhere? Again, in 2014, there might not be a sonic difference that non-experts can hear between the real thing and a MIDI simulator. Just asking from the department of historical accuracy!

Peace,
Mr DJA

"Now doubt in my mind that in ’89 and before, the technology was not good enough." Not true, performers have been successfully "fooling us" with midi pianos installed inside grand pianos since the early 80's.....

"Elton John & Billy Joel are NOT using real acoustic pianos on stage 100%" Correct same with Paul McCartney, at least his upright but his grand sounds real to me.... Also Neil Young and Gram Nash still play real pianos.... I say, the best pianist for the Stones today would be Bruce Hornsby....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-23 18:57 by DoomandGloom.

I can tell you, there is big difference.

From I was 5-6 years old, I have played piano and later on also pipe organ. I was so lucky that my piano teacher had a Steinway grand piano and that fantastic to play on. I myself have a Yamaha upright.

It takes time to deal with the real thing - adjustments etc., but that Work is worth every penny. The Electric piano have become much better through the years, but the sound doesn't get the same as the real one.

The same with a big pipe organ - you will never get the real thing, no matter what you say. Imagine Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" on keyboards



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-23 19:36 by mtaylor.

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DoomandGloom
"Now doubt in my mind that in ’89 and before, the technology was not good enough." Not true, performers have been successfully "fooling us" with midi pianos installed inside grand pianos since the early 80's.....

Or at least trying to...

I don't want to hijack the thread by arguing the point as I really don't have enough specific expertise to back it up (and I know from reading your posts you had access to higher end equipment in the 80's than I did!). I'll use the word flacvinyl brought in earlier in the thread and amend my statement to compromise with you and say prior to the early/mid-90s they weren't able to consistently fool us. It's just in my memory, it wasn't until the early to mid-90's that the MIDI technology came far enough to really "do a good piano" sound consistently. I'll never forget the fear I felt in late '91 when I was listening to a recording of piano & orchestra and thought, "hmm... I wonder who the orchestra was on this album." When I read the liner notes and found out it was one guy with a few different keyboards my first thought was "Sh!t! They don't need us anymore!" Not only did the guy have a great piano sound but also the symphonic instruments including percussion & some guitar were outstanding. Twenty years later I don't even imagine a symphony unless they make the front cover. Now I assume that it's all digital and am pleasantly surprised if I find out the artist took enough ________ to use a symphony as opposed to a keyboard.

Note: Since I know you’ve got many stories you’ve yet to share with the board, if you’d like to use this as a springboard to share some of your stories, I’m all ears!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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mtaylor
Playing a grand piano or an Electric piano makes a big difference. The sound is completely different.

Better to call it a digital piano as an electric piano would be more along the lines of the wurlitzer.

A real piano sounding good in a loud band depends on the player, how it's mic'd up, the gear used and the sound crew etc.

He might still sound plinky with a real one in the context of a stones concert due to how he plays and the sounds he wants inorder to fit in. He might actually like the sounds he gets and would aim for a similar bright sound with a real piano inorder to cut through.

There's no reason he can't make the digital piano he already uses sound less plinky.

He might just think it's fits in better.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-23 20:03 by His Majesty.

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mtaylor
I can tell you, there is big difference.

From I was 5-6 years old, I have played piano and later on also pipe organ. I was so lucky that my piano teacher had a Steinway grand piano and that fantastic to play on. I myself have a Yamaha upright.

It takes time to deal with the real thing - adjustments etc., but that Work is worth every penny. The Electric piano have become much better through the years, but the sound doesn't get the same as the real one.

The same with a big pipe organ - you will never get the real thing, no matter what you say. Imagine Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" on keybaords

I knew there had to be a keyboard expert around here who could share some personal knowledge! Thanks for the insight.

However: No. I refuse to even let my brain begin to imagine Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" on a keyboard. He's my favorite composer, that's my favorite keyboard piece by him (Cello suite No. 1 in G Maj beats it out only because I've performed it) and other than the symphonic arrangement used in Disney's Fantasia, I don't ever want to hear that piece without the majesty it obtains when coming out of a pipe organ (or a symphony orchestra)! Though I've never heard an orchestra perform it live, I will never forget the first time I was in the same room with a pipe organist letting that one rip. Just the memory of that experience makes it hard for me to even use great headphones of sound system speakers.

Thanks for bring up some great memories... We now return you to your regularly scheduled IORR thread...

Peace,
Mr DJA

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mr_dja
I won’t disagree that there probably isn’t much sonic difference in a stadium between the top of the line digital controllers and MIDI samples that Chuck has access to in 2014.

That's the main crux of what i'm getting at. A real one would be more noticable to him as a player which in turn might affect his sound, but the use of a real piano itself would not guarantee any difference to how he sounds using a digital piano.

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mr_dja

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DoomandGloom
"Now doubt in my mind that in ’89 and before, the technology was not good enough." Not true, performers have been successfully "fooling us" with midi pianos installed inside grand pianos since the early 80's.....

Or at least trying to...

I don't want to hijack the thread by arguing the point as I really don't have enough specific expertise to back it up (and I know from reading your posts you had access to higher end equipment in the 80's than I did!). I'll use the word flacvinyl brought in earlier in the thread and amend my statement to compromise with you and say prior to the early/mid-90s they weren't able to consistently fool us. It's just in my memory, it wasn't until the early to mid-90's that the MIDI technology came far enough to really "do a good piano" sound consistently. I'll never forget the fear I felt in late '91 when I was listening to a recording of piano & orchestra and thought, "hmm... I wonder who the orchestra was on this album." When I read the liner notes and found out it was one guy with a few different keyboards my first thought was "Sh!t! They don't need us anymore!" Not only did the guy have a great piano sound but also the symphonic instruments including percussion & some guitar were outstanding. Twenty years later I don't even imagine a symphony unless they make the front cover. Now I assume that it's all digital and am pleasantly surprised if I find out the artist took enough ________ to use a symphony as opposed to a keyboard.

Note: Since I know you’ve got many stories you’ve yet to share with the board, if you’d like to use this as a springboard to share some of your stories, I’m all ears!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Hmmm. As far as symphonies employed in pop music, films or commercials very often a combination a midi and a small string section will do the trick to fool our ears. Add 8 violins and violas to a midi track, record them twice or more and you get a full sound... I recall the first midi/grand pianos in the mid 80's. For onstage a high end performer like Elton could be using an actual piano to trigger the midi signal the audience hears. The sound engineer could mix in a little of the mic'd piano or not but Elton would still have the comfort of the actual instrument. Still I can usually recognize when a real piano is employed in a live concert. It is usually more subtle in the mix as the mic's used to reinforce it are also "seeing" the louder on stage instruments... Other than guitars and drums The Stones are not too sentimental about gear but they may be regarding Stu and don't have a piano anylonger as a nod to their bandmate..

Restrict Chuck to a MKII mellotron and let him grapple with the clunky piano recordings on that.

Plus point is that they can play 2000 Loght Years From Home with 3 violins sound as part of the regular set.

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His Majesty

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mtaylor
Playing a grand piano or an Electric piano makes a big difference. The sound is completely different.

Betyer to call it a digital piano as an electric piano wood be more the wurlitzer.

A real piano sounding good in a loud band depends on the player, how it's mic'd up, the gear used and the sound crew etc.

He might still sound plinky with a real one in the context of a stones concert due to how he plays. He might actually like the sounds he gets and would aim for a similar bright sound inorder to cut through.

There's no reason he can't make the digital piano he already uses sound less plinky.

He might just think it's fits in better.

Digtial piano, clavinova, diskclavier you name it. You have the newest technology with a keyboard similar to a real piano to get the touch from the real piano, the pedals also with sensors to get the real touch assisted with a computer that has all kind of piano sound recorded from a real piano so to sounds as natural as possible. Still digital to me compared to the acoustic.

To get the sound of 20.000 pipes out of a digital equipment.... sorry that you can't.

And yeah, with a good player - he doesn't need to play plinky, plink.

Wtf has a pipe organ got to do with this?

An acoustic or digital piano can sound great or shit in a concert with a loud rock band. In 1989 i'd say the use of a digital piano resulted in crap sound, fast forward to 2012 it's not the piano that's the problem, it's his style and sound choices that some people seem to have a problem with.

Digital piano is not the reason he sounds the way he does onstage. It's how he uses it. A real piano is not the answer to some fans problem with Chuck.

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His Majesty
Wtf has a pipe organ got to do with this?

An acoustic or digital piano can sound great or shit in a concert with a loud rock band. In 1989 i'd say the use of a digital piano resulted in crap sound, fast forward to 2012 it's not the piano that's the problem, it's his style and sound choices that some people seem to have a problem with.

Digital piano is not the reason he sounds the way he does onstage. It's how he uses it. A real piano is not the answer to some fans problem with Chuck.

You missed the point - it was to explain that a digital thing can't replace the real thing. A computer can't replace all acoustic kind of instruments - it is impossible.

Today you can find digital pianos which are very very close to acustic ones. I am sure that 99% of the people would have problems to distinguish a good digital one from a normal one with the eyes closed. The touch is also really good today. I have tried many pianos in my life including the best you can imagine and believe me, there are fantastic digital pianos today.

Anyway, the two pianos I have at home, a grand and am upright are acustic...

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mtaylor


You missed the point - it was to explain that a digital thing can't replace the real thing. A computer can't replace all acoustic kind of instruments - it is impossible.

That's just your opinion and who say's digital has to replace the real thing anyway?

It doesn't really matter with regards to Chuck. That's how he wants to sound, it's not digital itself that is the problem, it's how he plays, what he chooses to use and how he uses it. He cold easily get a more convincing sounding digital piano or even a real piano, but it doesn't mean he's going to sound any better onstage with the stones.

Put it this way, were Stu or Nicky still alive it would still be recognisably Stu or Nicky were they to play the exact same digital piano Chuck used on the last stones tour.

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His Majesty
Wtf has a pipe organ got to do with this?

An acoustic or digital piano can sound great or shit in a concert with a loud rock band. In 1989 i'd say the use of a digital piano resulted in crap sound, fast forward to 2012 it's not the piano that's the problem, it's his style and sound choices that some people seem to have a problem with.

Digital piano is not the reason he sounds the way he does onstage. It's how he uses it. A real piano is not the answer to some fans problem with Chuck.

His B3 and Wurlie-playing is very good, though. The Stones could use a pure piano player in addition to Chuck.

Once again I'm finding myself thanking someone for making me think and helping me learn something new. I KNEW DoomandGloom had more exposure to high end musical equipment than I do and have just returned from my Google search of "acoustic piano midi interface" (google suggestion after I got the first couple of words in). I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA the technology had come far THAT FAR! [www.pianodisc.com] tells of a MIDI Controller Retrofit System. It goes on to say "The MIDI Controller Retrofit System will turn virtually any acoustic piano into a MIDI Controller. With this system you can use your acoustic piano’s keyboard to record music to a computer, send keyboard and pedal data to a digital piano, external sound module, sequencer or other MIDI device. The MIDI Controller system supports soft pedal, sostenuto pedal and sustain pedal functions."

When I say I'm behind on the technology, I'm behind. I didn't even have an IDEA that this technology existed! Thanks again to all who are currently participating in IORR's education of MR DJA!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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His Majesty

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mtaylor


You missed the point - it was to explain that a digital thing can't replace the real thing. A computer can't replace all acoustic kind of instruments - it is impossible.

That's just your opinion and who say's digital has to replace the real thing anyway?

It doesn't really matter with regards to Chuck. That's how he wants to sound, it's not digital itself that is the problem, it's how he plays, what he chooses to use and how he uses it. He cold easily get a more convincing sounding digital piano or even a real piano, but it doesn't mean he's going to sound any better onstage with the stones.

Put it this way, were Stu or Nicky still alive it would still be recognisably Stu or Nicky were they to play the exact same digital piano Chuck used on the last stones tour.

While I can't be sure, I think most of the posters on this thread are trying to discuss the keyboards as opposed to the keyboard player. In my years here at IORR I'm pretty sure that I've never seen a keyboard INSTRUMENT thread but I've seen plenty of keyboard player bashing threads. More than enough actually. Those I like to avoid. This kind I enjoy.

On a side note (not wanting to hijack thread though) - I do agree that the player makes a difference in addition to the difference the instrument makes. I'll just leave that discussion/debate to the keyboard PLAYER thread as opposed to the keyboard INSTRUMENT thread.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Yes, but a real piano wouldn't make much if any difference in a concert because it's still Chuck playing it. A real piano might even encourage him to play even more than he already does.

There have been a few keyboard specific threads on here.

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Garbie
Today you can find digital pianos which are very very close to acustic ones. I am sure that 99% of the people would have problems to distinguish a good digital one from a normal one with the eyes closed. The touch is also really good today. I have tried many pianos in my life including the best you can imagine and believe me, there are fantastic digital pianos today.

Anyway, the two pianos I have at home, a grand and am upright are acustic...

I can't begin to speak about professional, performing keyboards, but Garbie is right about what's out there now for most everyone else. The new Yamaha hybrids are great, I spent some time tinkering around with one last year and if I had the money I would have traded in my old baby grand for one of those new babies. The technology is moving rapidly toward replacing the feel and sound of an acoustic with digitals where you can't detect the difference. It makes me sad in some ways cause I love my old Stieff, but most pianos don't get better with age, they get worse.

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His Majesty
Yes, but a real piano wouldn't make much if any difference in a concert because it's still Chuck playing it. A real piano might even encourage him to play even more than he already does.

There have been a few keyboard specific threads on here.

he would slow down. Still you need real muscle for a genuine piano and it's idiosyncrasies. Chuck is a piano player first. I know for fact that he never recorded as an organist until Clapton's "Unplugged" where he played B-3 and pump organ at first reluctantly. It's clear there's been enough Chuck bashing today and I'm sorry to be a part of it. He is in fact a great person and amazing musician. It must be us...

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DoomandGloom
It's clear there's been enough Chuck bashing today and I'm sorry to be a part of it. He is in fact a great person and amazing musician. It must be us...

Agreed. On all points. One example of an "us" that I wish I wasn't a part of but can't for the life of me figure out how to exit.

Peace,
Mr DJA

It's not us, or digital, Chuck just isn't distinctive in the right way.