really bored with Beatles vs Stones now. Let's fight about something else.
I say Syd Barrett...great songwriter, played guitar like Hank Marvin on acid, left us with a brilliant album probably wilder,more original and more revolutionary than the Stones debut, 2 quite strange solo albums, 3 singles and knew when to get out before it all got too boring. Plus he gave the band their name and an entire career in which to immortalise him. Could've taken the money but opted for a quiet life painting and gardening and walking far further than you could possibly imagine.
Now where's my Piper Immersion boxset ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-06 02:18 by ash.

He knew when to get out? You mean spending the last 38 years of his life as a basket case was all part of some master plan?





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-06 02:28 by tatters.

I've always been a Roger Waters fan and never quite got into the Syd Barrett era. For me, the Piper at the Gates of Dawn is demo stuff to what they would do later with Atom Heart Mother, Meddle, Dark Side, etc. I think I got into them with the later stuff so going back to the first album is just a very different band. They were no doubt creative, but it doesn't sound as well put together as later famous Floyd. I certainly do give Syd credit, because before he went insane he was the one that was spearheading the whole band.

For me, Roger was insane to the point I could get on board with it. He is no doubt a crazy individual, but he maintained writing great lyrics and music that I was ok with it because he was still entertaining me. With Barrett, I got annoyed when the craziness also interfered with the music, like on Jugband Blues or whatever the song is on one of the earlier records. That was where I thought it just wasn't going anywhere (even though I think some songs like Bike are brilliant). Although, I also don't like Roger's solo stuff (as it totally bores me) and Floyd without Waters just seems pointless. To me, Floyd will always be Waters, Gilmour, Wright and Mason. I know some people really love the Barrett stuff, but that foursome was who I fell in love with and think created the truly inventive music that stands the test of time.

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RollingFreak
I've always been a Roger Waters fan and never quite got into the Syd Barrett era.

Same here. I like Syd's writing and playing, but a lot of psychedelic music doesn't really do much for me. Hendrix may be the only psychedlic music I can listen to any day of the week. The rest of the time I have to be in the right mood. I liked Syd's solo stuff more than Piper. Or the stuff I've heard.

I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag. But the music is great, and he wrote a lot of it. I don't know much about the writing dynamic in Floyd, like if even in songs credited solely to Roger if David had a hand in writing the guitar. Or if Roger would compose the guitar entirely. I've only read one Pink Floyd book, and I don't think it's considered a good one, so my knowledge is limited mostly to the music and some tidbits I've picked up over the years.

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NoCode0680
I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag.

Yup. Thats exactly why I like that "band" more than just Roger. I don't like him solo, but when he's with David and the rest of Floyd it elevates everything. I may be wrong, but I think usually the albums are lyrically credited to Roger and the music is either the band or credited to Roger and David. I'm pretty sure that from Dark Side and on, the albums would say "all lyrics by Roger Waters" but I could be wrong. The rest was definitely a band effort.

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RollingFreak

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NoCode0680
I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag.

Yup. Thats exactly why I like that "band" more than just Roger. I don't like him solo, but when he's with David and the rest of Floyd it elevates everything. I may be wrong, but I think usually the albums are lyrically credited to Roger and the music is either the band or credited to Roger and David. I'm pretty sure that from Dark Side and on, the albums would say "all lyrics by Roger Waters" but I could be wrong. The rest was definitely a band effort.

I don't know, but I do remember almost all songs on The Wall are credited to Roger alone. A few like Young Lust and Comfortably Numb are Gilmour/Waters and The Trial is Waters and Bob Ezrin. And I would imagine most of The Final Cut is credited to Roger. Maybe David got a credit on Not Now John or something.

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ash
left us with a brilliant album probably wilder,more original and more revolutionary than the Stones debut,

Well, an LSD-fuelled psychedelic album is going to be somewhat more original and revolutionary than an LP released in '64 chocked full of - though be it, great - R&B and blues covers.

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NoCode0680

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RollingFreak

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NoCode0680
I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag.

Yup. Thats exactly why I like that "band" more than just Roger. I don't like him solo, but when he's with David and the rest of Floyd it elevates everything. I may be wrong, but I think usually the albums are lyrically credited to Roger and the music is either the band or credited to Roger and David. I'm pretty sure that from Dark Side and on, the albums would say "all lyrics by Roger Waters" but I could be wrong. The rest was definitely a band effort.

I don't know, but I do remember almost all songs on The Wall are credited to Roger alone. A few like Young Lust and Comfortably Numb are Gilmour/Waters and The Trial is Waters and Bob Ezrin. And I would imagine most of The Final Cut is credited to Roger. Maybe David got a credit on Not Now John or something.

The Wall is not a good example to draw on, as the band was fracturing at that point, and Rick Wright hardly plays on it.

If you want to get a really clear and balanced idea on how they functioned and created as a full unit, check out the 2003 documentary Making of Dark Side of the Moon. It's available on DVD (the Classic Albums series), and you can watch the full doc from the link below.

Full Dark Side doc at: [www.dailymotion.com]

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stonehearted

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NoCode0680

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RollingFreak

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NoCode0680
I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag.

Yup. Thats exactly why I like that "band" more than just Roger. I don't like him solo, but when he's with David and the rest of Floyd it elevates everything. I may be wrong, but I think usually the albums are lyrically credited to Roger and the music is either the band or credited to Roger and David. I'm pretty sure that from Dark Side and on, the albums would say "all lyrics by Roger Waters" but I could be wrong. The rest was definitely a band effort.

I don't know, but I do remember almost all songs on The Wall are credited to Roger alone. A few like Young Lust and Comfortably Numb are Gilmour/Waters and The Trial is Waters and Bob Ezrin. And I would imagine most of The Final Cut is credited to Roger. Maybe David got a credit on Not Now John or something.

The Wall is not a good example to draw on, as the band was fracturing at that point, and Rick Wright hardly plays on it.

If you want to get a really clear and balanced idea on how they functioned and created as a full unit, check out the 2003 documentary Making of Dark Side of the Moon. It's available on DVD (the Classic Albums series), and you can watch the full doc from the link below.

Full Dark Side doc at: [www.dailymotion.com]

I have seen that before, but it's been a long time. Probably since 2003, but it is currently in my Netflix queue and I've been meaning to watch it again. I knew a lot the songs on DSOTM were written in team efforts, and a lot of the earlier albums were similar. I only knew this because I'm one of those weirdos who actually fills out the "Composer" field when tagging the songs on my computer. I didn't know much else though, as far as songwriting goes.

I read a book a long time ago called "Saucerful Of Secrets: The Pink Floyd Odyssey". But I didn't like it too much. Didn't feel like I learned a lot from it. It seems like it was really dry, and just sort of laid out events without really telling much about the band itself. Like reading a long Wikipedia article But maybe it was just over my head, I think I was 15 when I read it. I was REALLY into them at the time, and wanted to know everything about them, yet I remember that book being a chore to get through. I still have it, maybe I should pick it up again. I only remember bits and pieces of it. One interesting bit I remember was that Roger came to the band with the demos for The Wall and The Pros And Cons Of Hitchhiking, as I guess he conceptualized them around the same time, and the band chose The Wall, the other being shelved until Roger went solo.

THEORIES RANTS, ETC ---- MOJO 240 ------ November 2013



ROCKMAN

There's more to Syd Barrett than just psychedelia. During one of his solo sessions Dave Gilmour recorded Syd's Bob Dylan pastiche/parody, which remained unreleased until 2001.

Knew when to get out? He was nuts ASH and couldn't have carried on to save his life.

Yes, it was not a case of knowing when to get out, but more a matter of his career petering out through a combination of disorganization and personal indifference.

His last recording sessions were as late as August 1974. Pink Floyd had by this time become huge and they were taking forever to produce a follow-up to Dark Side, so EMI focused on Syd, who was still under contract, and asked for a new album. After Peter Jenner managed to get him to return to Abbey Road to record, Syd showed up with a stringless guitar.



Once a set of strings had been rounded up for his guitar (courtesy of Phil May of The Pretty Things), Pink Floyd biographer Barry Miles describes what happened next:

"When everything seemed in order they began. Syd had asked someone to type his lyrics to his new songs for him. This they had done using the red ribbon of the typewriter. When the sheet was handed to Syd he thought it was a bill, grabbed the guy's hand and tried to bite his fingers off."

All that was produced from these sessions were a few instrumentals and overdubs, rudimentary riffs. Some of the "highlights" from these sessions have surfaced, but on the actual complete studio session tape reels there is said to be long gaps of silence with incoherent attempts at slide guitar with no vocals at all, just occasional tentative utterances from Syd, such as "ummm... dunno, I'm not sure really..." and "I can't cope with this, I'm going home"....





When Syd showed up at Pink Floyd's Shine On sessions for the Crazy Diamond playback he is said to have picked up a guitar and asked when he would be playing. He also produced a toothbrush at one point, held it steady before him, then proceeded to brush his teeth while jumping up and down.


Syd Barret, with shaved eyebrows, at the session for Shine On You Crazy Diamond, June 5, 1975.

One of the Barrett biographies has him showing up on the front steps of Abbey Road with a guitar one day as late as 1980 with the intention of recording, but being turned away because no one there recognized him.

No Syd...no Pink Floyd...Syd was the catalyst. Much the same as Brian was for the Stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-07 03:00 by shadooby.

Check out Syd's "Wouldn't You Miss Me?" collection from 2001. You'll see.

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rob51
Knew when to get out? He was nuts ASH and couldn't have carried on to save his life.

In deed, there's a lesson to all of us not to type too quickly without thinking !
I just got fed up with the Beatles vs Stones rubbish. It could have been Brian Wilson vs Mike Love !
Much as i'm firmly in the Barrett camp re Floyd, it is impossible not to give the band huge credit. They lost their singer/songwriter/guitarist and reinvented themselves arguably becoming the most successful band in the world at one point. Much like Fleetwood mac and Peter Green.
It is of course a desperate tragedy that Syd suffered with mental illness as it is when anyone does. I work with mentally ill people and it's horrendous seeing what some of these people have to deal with in their lives. It's a harsh reminder that the tendency to romanticise what happened to Syd,Peter Green,Brian Wilson and so many others is misplaced.

...or more intressting Bob Klose vs David Gilmour...

2 1 2 0

I was never able to get into the Syd Barrett psychedelic stuff. I love Pink Floyd, but mostly the post-Barrett era. There are some really nice "normal" songs, like Arnold Layne, but the psychedelic stuff is not for me.

And I don't understand why to put Barrett vs. Waters. They were friends, started the band together, Syd played gutar, Roger played bass and was replaced by Gilmour. There was never any competition among Syd and Roger, why starting one now? Gilmour vs. Waters, that is the popular duel :-) Or the Barrett vs. Gilmour era.

Syd v Roger. I reckon the score would be 3-1 to Syd with Syd scoring the winner with a beautiful Beckham style freekick.

or maybe Roger Waters would claim it was his ball and not let anyone else play with it !

Anyway, i hope for lovers of all eras of Pink Floyd that the band do decide to continue with the Immersion sets at some point and i do hope that they have a comprehensive (and i mean everything) set for Piper and the following months with proceeds going to the mental health charity that Syd's family set up. That would be a fitting tribute to a great talent. Shine on you crazy diamond.

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ash
or maybe Roger Waters would claim it was his ball and not let anyone else play with it !

><

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ash
I just got fed up with the Beatles vs Stones rubbish.

ash, I responded to your post about The Beatles using a fuzz tone in 1963--you were right, they were indeed way ahead of the pack.

Because you're sick of that thread, you may not see it, but it's got everything you wanted to know about the fuzz box, including who invented it and where and when and how, and also when and on what songs the Beatles first recorded with the fuzz box.

So feel free to have a look. And thanks for making your post in that thread, which inspired me to do some research on that topic. The post was literally hours in the making.

cool i'll check it out. Thanks Stonehearted

Not a good comparison because there is nothing to fight because they lost Syd and they could really do anything. I like listening to "Dark side of The Moon " and "Wish You Were Here", in some songs you still feel the presence of Syd but for me the album The Piper At The Gates of Dawn is outstanding thanks to the exploration of experimental techniques at that time being. Would have liked seen his art.

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stonehearted

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NoCode0680

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RollingFreak

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NoCode0680
I don't know if I'd say I like Roger better, but I like the Roger era better. Namely for David. I do like Roger's writing though, sometimes it's a little too heavy handed for me. He's kind of a drag.

Yup. Thats exactly why I like that "band" more than just Roger. I don't like him solo, but when he's with David and the rest of Floyd it elevates everything. I may be wrong, but I think usually the albums are lyrically credited to Roger and the music is either the band or credited to Roger and David. I'm pretty sure that from Dark Side and on, the albums would say "all lyrics by Roger Waters" but I could be wrong. The rest was definitely a band effort.

I don't know, but I do remember almost all songs on The Wall are credited to Roger alone. A few like Young Lust and Comfortably Numb are Gilmour/Waters and The Trial is Waters and Bob Ezrin. And I would imagine most of The Final Cut is credited to Roger. Maybe David got a credit on Not Now John or something.

The Wall is not a good example to draw on, as the band was fracturing at that point, and Rick Wright hardly plays on it.

If you want to get a really clear and balanced idea on how they functioned and created as a full unit, check out the 2003 documentary Making of Dark Side of the Moon. It's available on DVD (the Classic Albums series), and you can watch the full doc from the link below.

Full Dark Side doc at: [www.dailymotion.com]

You are correct that the Wall is not a good example of the collaborative effort of earlier Pink Floyd albums, but you are wrong in regards to Wright's playing on it. Virtually all of the keyboard parts are played by Wright.

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tklawson
you are wrong in regards to Wright's playing on it. Virtually all of the keyboard parts are played by Wright.

Really? I recall a magazine interview with David Gilmour from the early 80s explaining why Rick Wright was not on The Final Cut, because in Gilmour's words he was "not earning his keep" and that both he and Roger ended up playing most of the keyboard parts on The Wall.

During the recording of The Wall Wright and Waters were said to not be getting along and Wright didn't bother showing up for a lot of sessions. I'll see if I can locate the interview, which was from either Creem or Circus, one of the two--the one that starts out with a photo of them standing on a small red footbridge....

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stonehearted

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tklawson
you are wrong in regards to Wright's playing on it. Virtually all of the keyboard parts are played by Wright.

Really? I recall a magazine interview with David Gilmour from the early 80s explaining why Rick Wright was not on The Final Cut, because in Gilmour's words he was "not earning his keep" and that both he and Roger ended up playing most of the keyboard parts on The Wall.

During the recording of The Wall Wright and Waters were said to not be getting along and Wright didn't bother showing up for a lot of sessions. I'll see if I can locate the interview, which was from either Creem or Circus, one of the two--the one that starts out with a photo of them standing on a small red footbridge....

Wright was not on The Final Cut, He was fired near the end of the Wall sessions. Roger basically threatened to destroy the tapes if Wright did not leave the group, although he was retained as a touring musician - Wright was the only member of Pink Floyd to make money on the Wall tour.

However, the part about him not showing up had more to do with a dispute over whether he would get a credit as producer on the Wall. Apparently he and Bob Ezrin did not get along either.

Anyway, here is a link explaining what parts Rick played on The Wall, and who played the other parts:

[www.canadianpinkfloyd.com]

Perhaps "virtually all" was an overstatement on my part, although he is present on most tracks in some capacity - the most obvious are Stop and The Trial, which is Ezrin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-08 00:52 by tklawson.

The "not earning his keep" line from Gilmour was merely how he was putting it in interviews at that time, so as not to divulge all the petty details behind the falling out between Wright and Waters.

But it is interesting how even in the post-Waters Floyd, for the Momentary Lapse of Reason album, Pink Floyd was officially just Gilmour-Mason and Rick Wright was credited along with the side players, as if he actually had to "earn his keep" to become an official full member again.

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stonehearted
The "not earning his keep" line from Gilmour was merely how he was putting it in interviews at that time, so as not to divulge all the petty details behind the falling out between Wright and Waters.

But it is interesting how even in the post-Waters Floyd, for the Momentary Lapse of Reason album, Pink Floyd was officially just Gilmour-Mason and Rick Wright was credited along with the side players, as if he actually had to "earn his keep" to become an official full member again.

He came in to MLOR very late. Most of, if not all of the keyboards were already done. I also believe that there was some legal reason why Wright could not rejoin right away - Mason talked about this in his book. There was some pretty serious legal wrangling over the Pink Floyd name, and even the equipment they used.

The other thing Wright said about his rejoining Pink Floyd in the late 80s was that his confidence was very low after the issues during The Wall and before - Waters and Wright were actually a pretty good songwriting team together - Us and Them being a fine example. I think Rick took Roger's criticism very personally.