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GasLightStreet

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CaptainCorella

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NICOS
I know..............The Beatles out sold them all and I don't think this will ever change.

How can you credibly claim that no one will ever outsell The Beatles?

You really need to be informed of that? That's absurd.

One of the many problems of a global World Wide Web, and forums like this, is that users may well not know if English is a first, or even fifth, language of another poster. And even if it the other poster does have English as their first language, (casual) American English can use words incredibly differently to how they may be used in English English. Etc.

So, for example, irony and/or sarcasm can sometimes be missed by the reader of a posting.

Back to the subject....

I'm as big a fan of The Beatles as I am of The Rolling Stones. And by big, I mean BIG. I don't need to show my credentials in either case.

Nevertheless when someone asserts that The Beatles can never be outsold, to me that seems an impossible claim. You simply cannot predict the future like that. Indeed, it may not happen, but to assert that it cannot happen is absurd

Captain Corella

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CaptainCorella
Indeed, it may not happen, but to assert that it cannot happen is absurd

Compare it to Novak Djokovic. 24 GS titles and a Gold Medal. No one will ever surpass that. Maybe Carlos Alcaraz. After many years.

I think another way to describe The Beatles importance would be to say it's unlikely there would be another band that could touch so many people in an ethereal way. They were seen as messiahs to a lot of people. I'm not saying this is a proper way or compare them to God even, but they were considered to be at some sort of super human level. To this day some of that resonates. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure Taylor Swift has out-sold The Beatles and Stones combined. Personally that's not what matters in this case.

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frankotero
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure Taylor Swift has out-sold The Beatles and Stones combined.

I though I'd use the power of Google to look at that data. OK, usual heavy disclaimers about accuracy and the need to do full research, which this does not claim to be.

So I asked Google three questions... 'Total record sales for {Taylor Swift | The Beatles | The Rolling Stones}'

I was actually a tad surprised at the (Wiki-based) answers...

Beatles - 600m
Stones - 200m
Swift - 200m

(Getting a better handle on a more reliable answer would need a lot of research - taking each (most) country in turn and finding out a load about how record sales are counted in that country, checking out current and lapsed streaming services, etc etc ad nauseam.)

Captain Corella

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CaptainCorella

Beatles - 600m
Stones - 200m
Swift - 200m

Found a bit different numbers:

Beatles - 600m - [FarOutMagazine.co.uk] , [CBSnews.com]
Stones - 250m - [UniversalMusic.ca]
Swift - 114m - [HelloRayo.co.uk]

See also the list of all-time best selling artists - [] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-08-12 15:20 by Irix.

Wow, I thought I heard Taylor out-sold The Beatles, or maybe they said she's bigger than The Beatles? I suppose that's true to some people. To me it seems they're trying to knock them off the mountain and replace them with something new. Could be I'm wrong. Anyhow I know what I love and I don't expect to see anything close to The Beatles (or Stones) in my time. Think it's been said before "we're lucky we lived in the right time".

Taylor Swift may have broken a record previously owned by the Beatles such as the number of simultinaeous singles in the top ten - well actually she trusted the whole Billboard Hot 100's top ten a for a week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-08-12 20:56 by ds1984.

I understand the Top Ten situation, sort of. Meaning music isn't like it used to be. I base this on top sales that reach 25,000 these days as opposed to 500,000 back in the 1960s-70s. Anyhow my whole complaint is comparing her to The Beatles. Makes me scratch my head. Well, I am an old guy

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CaptainCorella

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GasLightStreet

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CaptainCorella

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NICOS
I know..............The Beatles out sold them all and I don't think this will ever change.

How can you credibly claim that no one will ever outsell The Beatles?

You really need to be informed of that? That's absurd.

One of the many problems of a global World Wide Web, and forums like this, is that users may well not know if English is a first, or even fifth, language of another poster. And even if it the other poster does have English as their first language, (casual) American English can use words incredibly differently to how they may be used in English English. Etc.

So, for example, irony and/or sarcasm can sometimes be missed by the reader of a posting.

Back to the subject....

I'm as big a fan of The Beatles as I am of The Rolling Stones. And by big, I mean BIG. I don't need to show my credentials in either case.

Nevertheless when someone asserts that The Beatles can never be outsold, to me that seems an impossible claim. You simply cannot predict the future like that. Indeed, it may not happen, but to assert that it cannot happen is absurd

It's changed a little bit recently but in regard to actual records - vinyl, CD, cassette, 8-track and downloads - actual sales of an album - no one will surpass The Beatles because people do not and won't buy hard copies in the amount of ways hard copies were bought.

It's that simple.

With ABC amount of streams now equivalating one copy sold, which is more of a revelation in terms of the amount of money a single song (I've yet to see it count towards an album since album) makes the same amount of money as a purchase... it's ridiculously impossible for any artist to equal or sell more than The Beatles.

Could Taylor Swift equal The Beatles? She has a lot of fans but are they going to continue to sustain that kind of necessary dedication? The bulk of The Beatles sales was in their existence as a band (which is amusing since the RED and BLUE comps have each sold about 24 million copies, which, recently popped back up again but unlike when they were released, one copy counted as two, there's no way to tell how many 1991-onward sales of each comp has amounted to previous sales accurately).

No single reissue has been HUGE sellers, charting high, yes, but not selling like THE JOSHUA TREE did etc.

The strangest thing is every site I look at says something different, and the RIAA site is extremely outdated, but it seems based on what I've seen that their world wide sales are 600 million plus. That number will someday top 700 million when all the streams are added up (right!!????) but it's ridiculous - approximately, according to chartdata.org, 150 streams is equal to one single song purchase and, why only 10 is not explained but "1500 streams = 10 track sales = 1 album sale."

In regard to the math required to understand pre-1991 sales tracking, just listening is not buying, and how they came up with the ratio I don't understand, but one sale of a 45 is one sale, and 150 streams is... one sale.

Gonna need a lot of streams to actually count for millions of sales for just one song. The one advantage of streaming vs sales of hard copies is there are way more people accessing streaming platforms and listening to, say, Paint It Black, because they saw whatever movie it's in and for some reason they need to listen to it, well, that will continuously happen over decades and there's no guessing how much of an upswing or downswing there could be in regard to how many streams per day/week/month/year.

I dunno if you saw the Spotify tally for the Stones but the HACKNEY DIAMONDS songs, except for Angry, which was considerably higher ranked, were in the 30s, as I remember, which means a lot of people have listened to the album as a whole, and Angry got a ton of listens as a single.

Living In A Ghost Town was way up there too.


And yes, it's difficult to "read" sarcasm etc if it's not absolutely clear!

I think to keep things fun there should be a new IORR rule that says if you're going to say something sarcastic, you have to preface it with a warning, ie:

WARNING: There may be a sarcastic comment to follow that may not be understood as humour by all readers.

Do emojis count?

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GasLightStreet
Do emojis count?

Is the pope old (and catholic)?

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1963luca0
So, I learn that Preston got his own slot and also performed NFN and OS with Harrison before the RS. Sad to see the RS were so weak to give a sideman the spotlight like others did before.

Preston's two songs with the Stones in 1975 were highlights of the show! Fantastic playing by the band!

Mathijs

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treaclefingers

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GasLightStreet
Do emojis count?

Is the pope old (and catholic)?

It's difficult to keep track because they keep getting replaced.

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GasLightStreet

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treaclefingers

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GasLightStreet
Do emojis count?

Is the pope old (and catholic)?

It's difficult to keep track because they keep getting replaced.

They're always old, and catholic.

You're getting mixed up with Supreme Court nominees.

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treaclefingers

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GasLightStreet

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treaclefingers

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GasLightStreet
Do emojis count?

Is the pope old (and catholic)?

It's difficult to keep track because they keep getting replaced.

They're always old, and catholic.

You're getting mixed up with Supreme Court nominees.

Or Jurassic Park and Transformer films.

A Beatles Historian Found a One-of-a-Kind 1965 Concert Recording. Now He’s Looking to Sell.

Piers Hemmingsen owns two high-quality audio tapes of one of the Fab Four's Toronto concerts. So who will buy, for how much — and will the public ever get to hear it?

By Karen Bliss
August 23, 2024


The Beatles rehearse at the ABC Theatre, Blackpool for the group's bill-topping appearance on ABC TV's Blackpool Night Out on Aug. 1,1965. Daily Mirror/Mirrorpix via Getty Images


The owner of two reel-to-reel audio tapes containing a one-of-a-kind, superior-quality Beatles concert, recorded directly from the soundboard at Toronto’s Maple Leaf Gardens on Aug. 17, 1965, is ready to sell. Only seven people have purportedly heard the reels, from the show nearly 60 years ago at the height of Beatlemania.

The question now is who will buy it, how much it could be worth — and whether it will ever be released for the public at large to hear it.

“I have never offered it for sale before,” Piers Hemmingsen, a Toronto-based Beatles historian and author of The Beatles in Canada series, tells Billboard. “This is the best recording of any Beatles concert in Canada, if not North America, other than what was professionally recorded for The Beatles themselves.”

For a band as legendary as the Beatles, any rare artifact is likely to draw a horde of prospective buyers. But a singular recording of a concert held at the band’s apex is a rarity among rarities.

Hemmingsen, who has a copy on three cassette tapes for listening purposes only, says the reels contain The Beatles’ entire afternoon set, the opening acts, venue announcements about upcoming events (The Beach Boys, wrestling), and a press conference with The Beatles’ manager Brian Epstein, their PR person Tony Barrow and the BBC’s Brian Matthew, held at the long-shuttered arena’s Hot Stove Lounge.

The Beatles’ set was approximately a half hour long, featuring 12 songs (in order): “Twist and Shout,” “She’s A Woman,” “I Feel Fine,” “Dizzy Miss Lizzie,” “Ticket To Ride,” “Everybody’s Trying To Be My Baby,” “Can’t Buy Me Love,” “Baby’s In Black,” “I Wanna Be Your Man,” “A Hard Day’s Night,” “Help!” and “I’m Down.”

The openers were King Curtis and his Capitol Recording Band (12 songs); Cannibal and The Headhunters (five songs); Brenda Holloway (five songs), and Sounds Incorporated (five songs), who Epstein also repped. In total, the tapes contain 39 songs.

Hemmingsen’s first-look letter — a sell-sheet of sorts outlining the opportunity to purchase the tapes that was shown exclusively to Billboard — says the original concert tapes are “available now for the first time privately, to select individuals who resonate with their rarity and historical imperative.” And one appraiser who spoke with Billboard estimated that the reels could be valued at between $60,000 and $80,000, and could go at auction for as much as $100,000 or more. But the only potential buyer with the ability to release the recording to the public would be Apple Corps — and so far, there has been no offer.

According to Hemmingsen, the soundboard recording was organized by former Toronto Argonauts football player and two-time Grey Cup champion Don “Shanty” McKenzie, who after retiring from the Canadian Football League (CFL) worked for 40 years as the building superintendent for Maple Leaf Gardens. He passed away in 2001.

Hemmingsen views himself as a “custodian” of these tapes and realizes he is not able to share them publicly because Apple Corps owns the rights. (Apple Corps is aware of the recording but declined to comment when reached by Billboard.)

While doing years of research for his 2016 book, The Beatles In Canada: The Origins of Beatlemania! (Red Book), Hemmingsen discovered the existence of a black and white 8mm home movie McKenzie shot, without sound, of The Beatles’ Sept. 7, 1964, concert at the Gardens. He bought the film from McKenzie’s son around 2010, who threw in the two reels.

“When I had bought the items, it was really just for the film, which was not the original but a copy,” says Hemmingsen, a collector himself who recently curated and loaned many of his treasures to the Beatles exhibit that opened last month at Calgary’s National Music Centre, titled From Me To You: The Beatles in Canada 1964-1966. “I certainly wasn’t expecting to find out what was on those two reels. I still find it hard to believe.”

Hemmingsen would not tell Billboard what he paid McKenzie’s son for the film and the reels, but says it was “not expensive” because they did not know what was on the tapes at the time. “I took a risk in buying them, as it took a while before I could locate a proper player and listen to them,” he says. “The tape boxes were not dated.”

The Aug. 17, 1965, concert was The Beatles’ first after their show at Shea Stadium in Queens, N.Y., on Aug. 15, which opened their 1965 North American tour with an attendance of 55,600. The famous footage of that concert showcases the “Beatlemania” that had taken hold, as well as why the live bootlegs in circulation and posted online are not good quality.

“Most of these recordings captured only the sounds of the audience’s screams of delight at seeing The Beatles,” begins Hemmingsen’s first-look letter. “This live recording, made on professional equipment by a sound engineer from Toronto’s Maple Leaf Gardens stage soundboard on August 17, 1965, is the finest live recording made in Canada during their touring years.”

Hemmingsen says he has not made duplicates of the cassettes or even played it for friends over the years. Only a select group of people have heard it, he says, including former Canadian concert promoter John Brower, who put on the famed Toronto Rock and Roll Revival music festival in 1969 and is helping with the sale of the tapes; and Doug McClement, who he describes as “one of Canada’s most respected sound engineers.”

More importantly, several individuals who are intimately involved with the Beatles’ legacy have listened to the recording. After bringing the tapes to the attention of Apple Corps, Hemmingsen says the company flew him to Abbey Road Studios in July 2015, where he “auditioned” the original reel on their equipment. He tells Billboard four people were there: Abbey Road producer Giles Martin (Beatles’ producer George Martin’s son); Jonathan Clyde, director of production at Apple Corps; Sean Magee, mastering engineer at Abbey Road; and Lester Smith — the technician and “microphone custodian” who retired only a week ago from Abbey Road after 56 years — who set up the tape equipment.

“That was for their project Eight Days A Week, the Ron Howard movie,” says Hemmingsen of the meeting. “Now, it turned out that at that time, they said they could not use it for that project and that didn’t mean that they wouldn’t be able to do anything else with it later, but that’s how we left it.”

He adds that when he heard the recordings via a recording studio console, “it was a revelation. It is just like being on stage with them.”

Billboard’s attempts to reach Martin were unsuccessful.

Hemmingsen says the tapes were authenticated by Apple Corps and Magee. Reached by email, Magee told Billboard he is not authorized to comment about what he heard without permission from Apple and Universal Music Group.

He adds that earlier this year, Universal Music Canada’s director of catalogue marketing, Warren Stewart, heard some “sample clips” and that two “sample clips” were sent to filmmaker Peter Jackson “this week for his evaluation,” given the MAL software technology he used to enhance the recordings for the documentary series he directed and produced, The Beatles: Get Back.

Hemmingsen says he would like to keep the cassette copy but that everything is negotiable “if somebody absolutely insists that I give it up.” He wasn’t prepared to tell Billboard the dollar figure he has in mind but plans to use any proceeds to fund both the printing of his next book, The Beatles in Canada: The Evolution 1964-1970 (Blue Book), set for release in September; and a second edition of his The Beatles In Canada: The Origins of Beatlemania! (Red Book).

The Beatles played just nine concerts in Canada, six of which were at Maple Leaf Gardens: two on Sept. 7, 1964; two on Aug. 17, 1965; and two on Aug. 17, 1966. Hemmingsen also owns the only other known Toronto recording from one of the 1966 concerts, which he obtained on eBay in 2008 from a U.S. seller and donated to the University of Toronto in 2017.

“The value given by the University’s appraiser was $30,000 [Canadian dollars; USD $22,000],” he says. “If you compare something that’s been spread around the world to something that they haven’t heard before, which is superior audio quality, I think there’s a factor of five, at least.”

To try to estimate the value of this one-of-a-kind board recording based purely on the description of what the two reels contain, Billboard reached out to U.K.-based music memorabilia and vinyl specialists Omega Auctions Ltd., which has a Beatles auction coming up Oct. 8 and is inviting consignments.

“We’ve sold lots of Beatles recordings down the years. That’s our niche,” says auction manager Dan Muscatelli-Hampson, citing a recent audio tour diary Ringo Starr made in 1966, which sold for £10,000 ($13,000) and a set of unheard interviews, which sold for £30,000 ($39,000).

“Concert recordings are different and are, obviously, more interesting than interviews and will have a greater value, but the key thing is that what you can do with this is limited,” he continues. “If you bought this, you’ve got a really cool reel. But if you ever tried to do anything with it commercially, Apple and Paul McCartney would sue you to the next century. So that limits the commercial value.

“But I think that if you were to put it into auction, you might be thinking around I would probably say something like 40 to 60 thousand pounds,” he adds. “So that’s maybe $60,000 to $80,000, but that’s a provisional auction estimate; I would not be surprised to see it selling upwards of $100,000.”

Muscatelli-Hampson says Hemmingsen “will always be better served putting it into auction, opening up that by a pool rather than just go for the first offer that he gets from Apple. [But] some people like to close that loop and get it back to the people who might be able to do something with it.”

Hemmingsen’s preference would be for Apple Corps to purchase the tapes and release the concert for all to hear. He hopes it will be made available to Beatles fans before the 60th anniversary of the Toronto concert next year.

“You can’t sit on a thing like this,” Hemmingsen says. “You want to share it with the world. On the other hand, there’s a commercial value to it and the only people that can release it are Apple. Somebody could buy the tape from me and enjoy it for themselves, but they could never release it. I have that in writing from Apple. I mean, there’s nothing I can do with it.”

[www.billboard.com]

Poor guy, hasn't considered leaking it. Maybe Paul or Ringo will buy it and gift it to Apple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-08-24 13:20 by frankotero.

Wow.

McCartney should buy it - he knows better after what he went through thanks to Jacko - and Apple/UMG should release it. McCartney would make his money back within one hour of it being released.

Interesting.

I'd really like to hear The Star Club tapes cleaned up. And that may indeed be happening as Peter Jackson owns them and Apple know.

Plus there is that tape from the Stowe School show found last year.....

Captain Corella

Perhaps the reason Apple (and UMe) wasn't or still aren't interested is because it's from way early Beatles.

Consider the average Beatles fan: would they buy it?

No.

Serious Beatles fan: Yes.

Which one is a higher amount?

Difficult to tell in 2024 even though the red and blue comp reissues sold quite well.

Which is really funny seeing that people will pay $500 or whatever a ticket to see Paul McCartney live.

"I saw Paul McCartney last week!"

Oh really????

"Yes!!!!"

How was it???

"OH MY GOD! It was awesome!!!!"

What did he play?

"Uh... a bunch of Beatles songs!!!"

Well of course - but what ones?

"He played Uncle Albert!"

I'm going to see Paul McCartney at the O2 Arena in London with my daughter in December. I hope he plays "Here Comes the Sun"!

I'm going to see Paul McCartney at the O2 Arena in London with my daughter in December. I hope he plays their biggest hits, like "Here Comes the Sun"!

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drbryant
I'm going to see Paul McCartney at the O2 Arena in London with my daughter in December. I hope he plays their biggest hits, like "Here Comes the Sun"!

He always does a song as a tribute to George, and John, although I think he usually does "Something" on Ukelele as that tribute. Here Comes The Sun is essentially a solo song by George that the other two kind of "allowed" onto a Beatles album. It's no wonder they broke up so early, George was repressed.

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roller99

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drbryant
I'm going to see Paul McCartney at the O2 Arena in London with my daughter in December. I hope he plays their biggest hits, like "Here Comes the Sun"!

He always does a song as a tribute to George, and John, although I think he usually does "Something" on Ukelele as that tribute. Here Comes The Sun is essentially a solo song by George that the other two kind of "allowed" onto a Beatles album. It's no wonder they broke up so early, George was repressed.

George wanted to do too much else, and it makes sense, though he couldn't quite produce the material as quickly as them. In his defense, IMO only John really pulled through a great solo career in the 70s. Solid albums, in a way that I love Ram and stuff but Paul lost a lot after the Beatles it seemed. He could get it together when he wanted but I never felt Band On The Run were as good as Plastic Ono Band or Imagine. Not a chance.

To his detriment, George had one incredible record which was All Things Must Pass. And that was only fantastic because he'd built up a catalogue of songs he hadn't been able to use previously. 2 songs every year isn't bad when you need to bang out 12. And the well dried quickly for him. He could still muster like 3 songs a record, but otherwise, All Things Must Pass is all you really need from his solo career. So he wanted to leave, he was feeling repressed, but creatively beyond that album he never really stuck it to anyone. He more did that by who he could become friends with and spend his time with, without having to worry about the Beatles.

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roller99

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drbryant
I'm going to see Paul McCartney at the O2 Arena in London with my daughter in December. I hope he plays their biggest hits, like "Here Comes the Sun"!

He always does a song as a tribute to George, and John, although I think he usually does "Something" on Ukelele as that tribute. Here Comes The Sun is essentially a solo song by George that the other two kind of "allowed" onto a Beatles album. It's no wonder they broke up so early, George was repressed.

All Harrison Beatles songs were basically solo songs because John and Paul never wrote with him.John was particularly dismissive of George as a writer.He didn’t even play on Hear Comes the Sun.John , by the time of the Let it Bd Sessions had lost interest in the band.Let it Be could have been a top Beatles album had he contributed 2 more classic songs.Paul had 4 , Let it Be, Get Back, Long and Winding Road and Two of Us.John contributed Across the Universe , which had been released 2 years earlier.And then a song he wrote inthe 1950s which is not very good.The rest was also subpar.

LET IT BE is certainly their "weakest" album, or perhaps better put, their most bizarre album. Certainly a toss about in the shop (letting Phil Spector put his grubby fingers on it didn't help).

They were still there but they weren't all there, in many ways.

What's nice about the deluxe parts (and "movie") is the clues about ABBEY ROAD, an amazing turn about.

Why the Stones were given so much grief about LET IT BLEED compared to LET IT BE is bizarre since LET IT BE was 6 months after.

I still find it a bit odd that the Stones didn't stick with the original name, AUTOMATIC CHANGER, especially given the artwork, for what became titled LET IT BLEED (and, as I can recall, the only album with a song with the same name where the title is never said - which, of course, is their second song until Continental Drift, I believe, to never say the song title in the song).

Turd on the Run, Casino Boogie,the Gomper?

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Taylor1
Turd on the Run, Casino Boogie,the Gomper?

Country Honk?

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Captain Teague

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Taylor1
Turd on the Run, Casino Boogie,the Gomper?

Country Honk?

See? Couldn't think.

Gonna have to work on a playlist of songs whose titles are never sung.