Keith is lucky that John & George are not around to hear his latest collection of mish mashed rubbish...I wonder what their comments would be....

bugger off some of us love it

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tumbled
bugger off some of us love it

It is dated...leftovers from Talk is Cheap & Main Offender...To bad Keith has nothing new to offer he keeps referring to roots music...Basically because he plays the same ol' mish mash over and over aqain and again...Really dug it for years but now it is pretty well worn...A real sleeper...

The Beatles and the Stones manufactured their public rivalry to promote interest in their records. They admitted it. They were great friends behind the scenes. I guess Keith is carrying on the tradition of false competition with the Beatles. Once again publicity results.

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chatoyancy
The Beatles and the Stones manufactured their public rivalry to promote interest in their records. They admitted it. They were great friends behind the scenes. I guess Keith is carrying on the tradition of false competition with the Beatles. Once again publicity results.

just like keith and mick's rivalry is manufactured to promote interest.

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Turner68
that's cool, i didn't know that, thanks for the link. funny that people think of SFTD as a Mick song then - since in the film we can see that other than the lyrics it was barely formed. It'll always be a Rocky Dijon song to me.

If only...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-14 08:17 by Rocky Dijon.

For what it's worth when it comes to authorship of the songs in question, here's what I go with...

"Sway" - opening riff was Mick's idea. Mick asked Keith to replace his guitar part, Keith refused. Keith's only contribution was a vocal track supporting Mick. All guitars are Jagger and Taylor.

"Moonlight Mile" - the Japanese or Chinese chords were Keith's idea and the thematic subject was Keith's idea, but Mick wrote the actual song. Whether Mr. Taylor deserves a songwriting credit for transforming the track musically with his solo will be debated for as long as there are Stones fans. While Jagger recently recalls Keith overdubbing guitar on the track, this is contrary to what was accepted as fact for 45 years. Keith allegedly remarked he was not on the track many times over the years. Anyway, I wasn't there. @#$%& didn't need my bongos apparently.

"Dead Flowers" - I'm aware that Mr. Jagger has more recently claimed credit for writing this one by himself. For the longest time, I heard this was written by Mick and Keith together and it was cited as the last time they lived "round the corner" from one another and were able to collaborate with ease. I thought it was written in Redlands, but I may be mistaken. In any event, I'm going with this one as Jagger-Richards all the way.

"100 Years Ago" - my understanding from an interview with Mr. Taylor at the time was that Jagger wrote this song around 1970 on piano, but during the Dynamic Sound sessions, the band (likely minus Keith), transformed the arrangement.

As for the rest of the back and forth and disparaging of one another's reputations, I like to believe Naturalust is "Stroker" from the Honeymoon Tapes. It's the romantic in me.

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Rocky Dijon
I like to believe Naturalust is "Stroker" from the Honeymoon Tapes. It's the romantic in me.

LoFL! I sent a copy of the Honeymoon Tapes to a friend of Stroker's, about a decade ago.
He was shocked - shocked! - to find his outpourings were not only preserved but in circulation.
The man who would not be shut up :E

Naturalust with all due respect i feel sometimes that you feel like certain members of iorr are like an elite, and that if people like me are not knowledgeable enough, then we are not worthy of joining in discussion or having a point of view about the music
Just because you and others surf the web constantly acquiring information about the intricacies and tiniest details that i would imagine Mick and Keith themselves are unaware of, does not make your ear for the music more valid.
Its very belittling to have such an attitude, having said that i fully respect that you and others are of course far more aware of certain aspects of musical development than myself

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2120Wolf

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tumbled
bugger off some of us love it

It is dated...leftovers from Talk is Cheap & Main Offender...To bad Keith has nothing new to offer he keeps referring to roots music...Basically because he plays the same ol' mish mash over and over aqain and again...Really dug it for years but now it is pretty well worn...A real sleeper...

Well, this is wrong.

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Naturalust

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keefriffhards

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Naturalust

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keefriffhards
I have been raving about trouble from the start, now all you musicians and intellectuals finally get it
You have to analyse and rationalize something that is already inspirationally coherent and consistent with the ears
Keith is, for the last time, a god given genius
just listen to his music and try to understand, its not about your pathetic observations between bars or beats
its just what comes from inside the man who is
MR ROCK AND ROLL
Keith does not need Charlie, Jordan, Mick or anyone else to create good music
They are all incredibly lucky to grace the presence of the human Riff
they are all incredibly average without his keefness
It seems to me that good music generally comes only from people that collaborate with Keith
Name me an amazing song written and completed by a Stone without Keith's collaboration.

Finally Get it? Sorry riffhards, I don't like it at all, not any more now that I've looked at the structure and heard it more.. If this is the best Mr. Rock and Roll has to offer I think his title would be in great jeopardy. Our "pathetic" observations are trying to answer questions posed by long time and respected posters here. The analysis was painful because it involved listening to the tune again, imo. Analysis doesn't mean we like it or think it's as brilliant as you do. There are plenty of diverse opinions on this one here actually.

Amazing songs completely written without Keith?

Moonlight Mile
Sway
Dead Flowers
100 Years Ago

...and many more actually. Don't get me wrong, I love Keith, love a lot of his songs and what he has done to help Mick get grooves on some of their collaborations but I'm not blind enough to think everything he does is golden or everybody he works with is nothing without him. That's inane.

ERR Keith plays and collaborated on all these songs
Think harder

Err, I think you need to do a bit of research before you state things as facts instead of opinion.

Moonlight Mile - written by Mick with help from Taylor, Keith nowhere to be found in the writing or recording.

Sway - Written by Mick, possibly with help from Taylor, Keith apparently contributes a few background vocals on this one after in was basically complete. Guitars are all Jagger and Taylor, fyi.

Dead Flowers - Completely written by Mick who says he played it 100 times at home before he ever shared it with the Stones.

100 Years Ago - Another one completely written by Mick

There are lots more examples but you asked for songs where Keith collaboration wasn't present and I think these are pretty good examples. Pretty sure all these were in final form and Keith's "collaboration" was minimal. Moonlight Mile and Sway being two of the best examples.

Apparently? Keith is singing all over the chorus on Sway. In fact, that chorus wouldn't have been the same at all without his contributions.

It's pretty well-known that Keith has claimed Mick used his «japanese thing» as basis for writing MM.

As for DF, I know about the quotes, but Mick is never saying that he wrote it all by himself. And Keith is heavily involved in the song, with three guitars as well as the harmony vocals. Mick could have played it a hundred times at home with Keith, or Taylor, for that matter.

Do you have sources saying that Taylor helped Mick writing MM and Sway? The only quote I find is Taylor saying he had the idea for the riff on MM the strings play. That has never been repeated, nor confirmed by anyone again.

Mick was quick to credit the arranging of the strings after Taylor's 2011/12-quote:

«It was my idea to use Paul (Buckmaster) to arrange the strings. I had used him before, on the end of Sway. For this piece, we thought it would be nice to build the song with strings and have those hinted quarter-tones Paul’s so good at. His orchestration echoes what I’m singing and builds into the coda, so it amplifies all the stuff you heard before in a rather subtle way. Then he has a really nice edit that mellows when I sing, Yeah, I’m coming home.

- Mick Jagger, 2015



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-14 12:17 by DandelionPowderman.

So Mick has written Sway, Moonlight Mile, 100 Years Ago & Dead Flowers without Keith - so what?

Okay, Sway is a good one, no doubt about it, but Moonlight Mile is the weirdest and strangest thing on SF and I dont like it at all. 100 Years Ago is simple boring, boring, boring and Dead Flowers is an attempt to write a country song without creating a highlight, it´s rather average.

So Mick seems to get not very far without Keith´s input in the writing process.

Mick and Keith are brothers, and Mick always wanted to be a musician like his brother, which of course he never was and never will be or can be. I imagine him sitting around and mumbling: "Oh, I have to write a song... a song... what kind of riff would Keith use? How would he play this and that? What would his lyrics be like.." And then Mick copies Keith´s style of songwriting as good as he can. And as Mick is no fool, he meanwhile learned his lessons well and is able to do a pretty good "Keith-forgery", maybe should say "imitation".

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keefriffhards
Naturalust with all due respect i feel sometimes that you feel like certain members of iorr are like an elite, and that if people like me are not knowledgeable enough, then we are not worthy of joining in discussion or having a point of view about the music
Just because you and others surf the web constantly acquiring information about the intricacies and tiniest details that i would imagine Mick and Keith themselves are unaware of, does not make your ear for the music more valid.
Its very belittling to have such an attitude, having said that i fully respect that you and others are of course far more aware of certain aspects of musical development than myself

I think you may misunderstand me riffhards. I welcome all opinions and wouldn't begin to assume my ear is any more valid that anyone elses. I was pretty obviously responding to your comments about peoples "pathethic" observations concerning the song structure of Trouble and actually trying to answer your own question about amazing Stones songs written without Keith. When you make bold statements like that I think you are expecting a response, no?

I stand by my comments concerning the tunes I listed. I think people underestimate Mick's ability to crank out good tunes by himself back in that period when both he and Keith were at the peak of their powers and I also understand Keith's contributions to some of those tunes were great and in a few cases either non existent or minimal.

Dandie, all I remember about MM and Sway and Taylor's involvement are some interviews where he talks about he and Mick recording them and his several statements alluding to the fact he thinks he should have been given some writers credits on them. I just tend to believe him in general based on his no bs, direct answers to interview questions. I'm guessing they were primarily written by Mick but Taylor's playing on them sure was great, imo.

I never bought Keith's claim that MM was lifted from the "Japanese thing" he had done and always thought he was just a bit jealous that such a beautiful Stones song was done without him. It's one of those things we'll never know, like Bill's claim to have written the JJF riff, either you believe him or you don't. Besides, it's like saying some of Keith songs were lifted from Chuck Berry. Keith probably had played hammered riffs with droning strings before, it's pretty common guitar technique but I think Micks use of it in the construction of MM was where the song was born and he it the one who did all the work to create it. Watching Keith playing this one on tour has only supported by opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-14 14:12 by Naturalust.

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DandelionPowderman

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2120Wolf

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tumbled
bugger off some of us love it

It is dated...leftovers from Talk is Cheap & Main Offender...To bad Keith has nothing new to offer he keeps referring to roots music...Basically because he plays the same ol' mish mash over and over aqain and again...Really dug it for years but now it is pretty well worn...A real sleeper...

Well, this is wrong.

Dandy answer.

Mick is a brilliant songwriter. And it doesn't take anything away from Keith's genius. We're lucky to have them both.

Will the Keef doco get a trailer ? I saw it was getting an earlier screening at Toronto Film Festival

Just hope the Netflix docu will be for sale, sometime after Sept 18.
jeroen

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Maindefender

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DandelionPowderman

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2120Wolf

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tumbled
bugger off some of us love it

It is dated...leftovers from Talk is Cheap & Main Offender...To bad Keith has nothing new to offer he keeps referring to roots music...Basically because he plays the same ol' mish mash over and over aqain and again...Really dug it for years but now it is pretty well worn...A real sleeper...

Well, this is wrong.

Dandy answer.

When the single originates from the Licks sessions, how can it be from the TIC and MO-sessions?

We don't know when the rest of the songs, save the two covers, where written.

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slewan
I don't know if somebody already posted the information, but here's a list of people who appear on the album and/or who wrote or co-wrote some of the songs
[www.jpc.de]
just klick on "Mitwirkende" to see the list (it's in German, but you'll be able to get the content)

Gregory Isaacs: composer (Love is overdue)
Huddie Ledbetter and John Lomax composers (Goodnight Irene)
Keith Richards: singer, composer, producer, guitars, bass, piano, organ;
Steve Jordan: composer, producer, drums, singer, percussion, piano, other Percussions, timpani;
David Porter: composer;
Norah Jones: composer, singer
Bobby Keys: Saxophon
Charles Hodges: piano, organ
David Paich: organ
Paul Nowinski: Bass, Viola
Aaron Neville: singer
Ivan Neville: singer, piano;
Pierre de Beauport: guitar
Ben Cauley: trumpet
Clifton Anderson: trombone
Larry Campbell: Violine, fiddle
Sarah Dash: singer
Waddy Wachtel: guitars, singer
Harlem Gospel Choir
Jack Hale: trombone
Kevin Batchelor: trumpet
Lannie McMillan: Saxophon
Charles Dougherty: Saxophon
Meegan Voss: singer
Pino Palladino: Bass
Bernard Fowler: singer
Blondie Chaplin: singer
Babi Floyd: singer
Jim Horn: Saxophon

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KRiffhard

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slewan
I don't know if somebody already posted the information, but here's a list of people who appear on the album and/or who wrote or co-wrote some of the songs
[www.jpc.de]
just klick on "Mitwirkende" to see the list (it's in German, but you'll be able to get the content)

Gregory Isaacs: composer (Love is overdue)
Huddie Ledbetter and John Lomax composers (Goodnight Irene)
Keith Richards: singer, composer, producer, guitars, bass, piano, organ;
Steve Jordan: composer, producer, drums, singer, percussion, piano, other Percussions, timpani;
David Porter: composer;
Norah Jones: composer, singer
Bobby Keys: Saxophon
Charles Hodges: piano, organ
David Paich: organ
Paul Nowinski: Bass, Viola
Aaron Neville: singer
Ivan Neville: singer, piano;
Pierre de Beauport: guitar
Ben Cauley: trumpet
Clifton Anderson: trombone
Larry Campbell: Violine, fiddle
Sarah Dash: singer
Waddy Wachtel: guitars, singer
Harlem Gospel Choir
Jack Hale: trombone
Kevin Batchelor: trumpet
Lannie McMillan: Saxophon
Charles Dougherty: Saxophon
Meegan Voss: singer
Pino Palladino: Bass
Bernard Fowler: singer
Blondie Chaplin: singer
Babi Floyd: singer
Jim Horn: Saxophon

Add Lee Scratch Perry for the Best Buy bonus-track (alternate version) of Love Is Overdue.



N

Add Lee Scratch Perry for the Best Buy bonus-track (alternate version) of Love Is Overdue.



N[/quote]


Is this true??

Gregory Isaacs: composer (Love is overdue)
Huddie Ledbetter and John Lomax composers (Goodnight Irene)
Keith Richards: singer, composer, producer, guitars, bass, piano, organ;
Steve Jordan: composer, producer, drums, singer, percussion, piano, other Percussions, timpani;
David Porter: composer;
Norah Jones: composer, singer
Bobby Keys: Saxophon
Charles Hodges: piano, organ
David Paich: organ
Paul Nowinski: Bass, Viola
Aaron Neville: singer
Ivan Neville: singer, piano;
Pierre de Beauport: guitar
Ben Cauley: trumpet
Clifton Anderson: trombone
Larry Campbell: Violine, fiddle
Sarah Dash: singer
Waddy Wachtel: guitars, singer
Harlem Gospel Choir
Jack Hale: trombone
Kevin Batchelor: trumpet
Lannie McMillan: Saxophon
Charles Dougherty: Saxophon
Meegan Voss: singer
Pino Palladino: Bass
Bernard Fowler: singer
Blondie Chaplin: singer
Babi Floyd: singer
Jim Horn: Saxophon[/quote]


**Jim Horn!!

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NeddieFlanders

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KRiffhard

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slewan
I don't know if somebody already posted the information, but here's a list of people who appear on the album and/or who wrote or co-wrote some of the songs
[www.jpc.de]
just klick on "Mitwirkende" to see the list (it's in German, but you'll be able to get the content)

Gregory Isaacs: composer (Love is overdue)
Huddie Ledbetter and John Lomax composers (Goodnight Irene)
Keith Richards: singer, composer, producer, guitars, bass, piano, organ;
Steve Jordan: composer, producer, drums, singer, percussion, piano, other Percussions, timpani;
David Porter: composer;
Norah Jones: composer, singer
Bobby Keys: Saxophon
Charles Hodges: piano, organ
David Paich: organ
Paul Nowinski: Bass, Viola
Aaron Neville: singer
Ivan Neville: singer, piano;
Pierre de Beauport: guitar
Ben Cauley: trumpet
Clifton Anderson: trombone
Larry Campbell: Violine, fiddle
Sarah Dash: singer
Waddy Wachtel: guitars, singer
Harlem Gospel Choir
Jack Hale: trombone
Kevin Batchelor: trumpet
Lannie McMillan: Saxophon
Charles Dougherty: Saxophon
Meegan Voss: singer
Pino Palladino: Bass
Bernard Fowler: singer
Blondie Chaplin: singer
Babi Floyd: singer
Jim Horn: Saxophon

Add Lee Scratch Perry for the Best Buy bonus-track (alternate version) of Love Is Overdue.



N

There is also keyboardist Spooner Oldham on “Lovers Plea"

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Maindefender
Add Lee Scratch Perry for the Best Buy bonus-track (alternate version) of Love Is Overdue.



N

Is this true??[/quote]

I guess so, there's ebayers already offering the Best Buy +1-version, like this one (I don't think it's fake):

[www.ebay.com]


N

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NeddieFlanders
I guess so, there's ebayers already offering the Best Buy +1-version, like this one (I don't think it's fake):

[www.ebay.com]


N

Surely not fake, delivery dates are listed as between Sept 30 and Oct 6, no one has this in hand yet but I've heard that copies will soon be shipped out to many internet bloggers and other music reviewers so we will soon be getting more detailed song by song reviews as part of the incredible media PR blitz for this record.

It's amazing how much PR and hype is going into this release in light of how quietly the Stones slipped the SF live release out. I can't recall many other records with this much build up actually.

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Naturalust

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NeddieFlanders
I guess so, there's ebayers already offering the Best Buy +1-version, like this one (I don't think it's fake):

[www.ebay.com]


N

Surely not fake, delivery dates are listed as between Sept 30 and Oct 6, no one has this in hand yet but I've heard that copies will soon be shipped out to many internet bloggers and other music reviewers so we will soon be getting more detailed song by song reviews as part of the incredible media PR blitz for this record.

It's amazing how much PR and hype is going into this release in light of how quietly the Stones slipped the SF live release out. I can't recall many other records with this much build up actually.

It better be good with all the PR!! So the bonus cut is a Best Buy exclusive, is that weird? Even Keith's site doesn't have it listed in its' bundle packages.

Best Buy "exclusive" isn't uncommon. Might not be the only retailer offering one of some sort or another.

Nice to see Blondie's name in there. And Pino Palladino, The Who's bass player.

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Beast
Nice to see Blondie's name in there. And Pino Palladino, The Who's bass player.

...and Babi Floyd too.

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Naturalust

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keefriffhards
Naturalust with all due respect i feel sometimes that you feel like certain members of iorr are like an elite, and that if people like me are not knowledgeable enough, then we are not worthy of joining in discussion or having a point of view about the music
Just because you and others surf the web constantly acquiring information about the intricacies and tiniest details that i would imagine Mick and Keith themselves are unaware of, does not make your ear for the music more valid.
Its very belittling to have such an attitude, having said that i fully respect that you and others are of course far more aware of certain aspects of musical development than myself

I think you may misunderstand me riffhards. I welcome all opinions and wouldn't begin to assume my ear is any more valid that anyone elses. I was pretty obviously responding to your comments about peoples "pathethic" observations concerning the song structure of Trouble and actually trying to answer your own question about amazing Stones songs written without Keith. When you make bold statements like that I think you are expecting a response, no?

I stand by my comments concerning the tunes I listed. I think people underestimate Mick's ability to crank out good tunes by himself back in that period when both he and Keith were at the peak of their powers and I also understand Keith's contributions to some of those tunes were great and in a few cases either non existent or minimal.

Dandie, all I remember about MM and Sway and Taylor's involvement are some interviews where he talks about he and Mick recording them and his several statements alluding to the fact he thinks he should have been given some writers credits on them. I just tend to believe him in general based on his no bs, direct answers to interview questions. I'm guessing they were primarily written by Mick but Taylor's playing on them sure was great, imo.

I never bought Keith's claim that MM was lifted from the "Japanese thing" he had done and always thought he was just a bit jealous that such a beautiful Stones song was done without him. It's one of those things we'll never know, like Bill's claim to have written the JJF riff, either you believe him or you don't. Besides, it's like saying some of Keith songs were lifted from Chuck Berry. Keith probably had played hammered riffs with droning strings before, it's pretty common guitar technique but I think Micks use of it in the construction of MM was where the song was born and he it the one who did all the work to create it. Watching Keith playing this one on tour has only supported by opinion.

some of keith's songs were definitely lifted from Chuck Berry. and keith will be the first to admit to it.