My band in Atlanta, the Amazing Mongooses (check us out on iTunes, Amazon, and more!) has now been playing clubs for about ten years. We have discovered a disturbing trend that apparently is now "standard procedure" for bands playing clubs in L.A., Nashville, and other cities: "Production Costs" (or, what it really IS: PAY TO PLAY.

For those not aware, what it means is that clubs say to the band, "you have to pay us for 'Production Costs' (meaning the use of their sound and light system, which is sometimes nice, sometimes abysmal)."

Most of the folks who follow the Amazing Mongooses come up to see us in pretty good numbers at clubs where there is no cover. With the economy the way it is, that still winds up being a little expensive when the beers are five bucks each and when you are also expected to order food.

When you say to that same group of people who follow you that there will be a cover charge of five or ten bucks a person, you wind up getting about a dozen people in the room.

The club then says, "well, you guys only brought in about 10 people, which, at $5 a head is $50, and our Production Costs are $100, so you guys actually owe US fifty bucks."

My response is "yeah, and good luck getting that from me right now." However, my son's band was charged $35 by a club despite bringing in a decent crowd, for "Production Costs."

Bottom line, the Amazing Mongooses will continue to play clubs that are "no cover" until they ALL go this route, and then it will be time for me, at the age of 58, to finally call it quits.

This is pretty much due to the fact that there are just too many bands and not enough places to play, and bands are so desperate to play somewhere they will actually agree to this.

The sad part is this: just think how many bands we have all enjoyed over the years who would have been forced to break up and go unheard if this had been going on years ago.

So, fellow IORR band members, has the dreaded "Production Costs/Pay to Play" scam hit YOUR city yet?

Cheers.....

Feel your pain, Mongoose, though it hasn't come to that for us yet.

At the club we play most frequently in town, the venue takes $150 for the soundman and, I believe, $60 for the door person. You take 100% of the door after that and can charge what you want. We usually charge $10 for a 3-band bill and, since we only play our hometown once a year, can bring a decent crowd in. We split $5-600, after posters/promo, three ways, not a lot, I know. It's funny, when people I work with at the post office ask how much my band makes and I tell them, they say, "oh, that's for each band member, right?" and I say, "nope, that's the whole band." Then they look at me with something like pity in their eyes and say, "well, at least you're doing what you love."

It kinda makes me sad that you can make way more money playing covers for three sets than playing original music. Not saying there's anything wrong at all with bar bands, but there are less and less venues for bands playing their own stuff around here and that new tax imposed by the Canadian gov't. will only lead to more bar owners going the dj/canned music route.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-09 01:25 by andrewm.

I just assumed that's the way it worked anyway. If it were free everybody and their dog with a kazoo would be trying to play at clubs (probably still do) and the venue would be forced to evaluate all of them. A fee would maybe weed out the less serious and help keep it from being an open mic night. I don't think this is the way it should be, that's just what I thought. Plus most businesses I know of that invest in equipment like that are going to charge for it. Not talking about clubs here, just businesses in general. Like auto shops and their "Shop fee" (or shop tax depending on the garage), which is usually a percentage of the total bill, and it covers various equipment used, rags, whatever. They're basically saying we paid for all this stuff and so we're going to add a flat % to the bill for everybody who uses our shop. As opposed to seeing the equipment as an investment in their business, they see it as they bought it for everybody, and everybody is going to pay them back. I can understand it, but it seems unnecessary. They're likely making more money with a band in the building than they would with an empty bar.

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Mongoose
My band in Atlanta, the Amazing Mongooses (check us out on iTunes, Amazon, and more!) has now been playing clubs for about ten years. We have discovered a disturbing trend that apparently is now "standard procedure" for bands playing clubs in L.A., Nashville, and other cities: "Production Costs" (or, what it really IS: PAY TO PLAY. ......

So, fellow IORR band members, has the dreaded "Production Costs/Pay to Play" scam hit YOUR city yet?

Cheers.....

That sucks man.
With this and other things like this,
it seems like the world has turned upside down and is going crazy.

ROCKMAN

Yeah, and truth be known, I enjoy playing so much that the money is pretty much secondary to the experience.

If we can get $50 a man (hopefully a lot more!) and maybe a pizza out of the deal, then it it worth it.

Otherwise, when you consider that a tank of gas costs me about 40 bucks.....a pair of drumsticks runs you about ten dollars....if you break a drum head, that's a lot more. My band in Boston, in 1979, usually made $50 a man back then. What was a gallon of gas and a pair of drumsticks in 1979?

So, if you not only do not get your fifty bucks but they want to CHARGE you to play, you have to REALLY LOVE IT to play in a band these days!

I don't know what to tell you man. I assume you are probably a cover band? (nothing wrong with that, I've been playing in cover bands for 20 years) But my point is, at your age and mine, we should be accepting of the fact that we aren't going to make any money at this. My hope is to roughly break even at the end of the day when we play a gig.

I've been paying a sound and lighting guy for several years now. He humps all his own gear and makes us sound as good as we are capable of. If the house has it's own PA and FOH engineer, it really only makes sense for the band to kick in for his services. However, the choice of house sound or providing your own, should be yours to make. Of course some clubs want control of how loud you play etc.

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it. I used to run sound while I played and honestly, this is fine for small clubs and dive bars but used to stress me out too much. It's worth it for me to pay someone to run sound. Now I show up with my bass and bass rig, plug in and go.

Oh, and btw, I can't remember the last gig I played that didn't at least give the band free draft beer in addition to our agree fee.

Not here. We recently played a club where management was going to pay us a hundred bucks. They were so happy with the full house that we brought in that they "gave" us some pizza and beer "on the house."

Yeah, right. Came time to get paid, and they subtracted all of that from the hundred.

We play originals and covers.

Has always been a sleazy business.

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jazzbass
.... I've been paying a sound and lighting guy for several years now. He humps all his own gear and makes us sound as good as we are capable of. If the house has it's own PA and FOH engineer, it really only makes sense for the band to kick in for his services. However, the choice of house sound or providing your own, should be yours to make. Of course some clubs want control of how loud you play etc. .....

I have an old saying- "The only time anyone notices the sound is when it is bad"... and once one has had a night of bad sound, one learns it is well worth paying for a good sound man/system.

I still always try to go up to the sound man after show (no matter a small hall or large arena) which had good sound and say to him "GREAT SOUND TONIGHT!" and give him a thumbs ups... and most of the time they seem (happily surprised and) appreciate the compliment.

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Mongoose
Not here. We recently played a club where management was going to pay us a hundred bucks. They were so happy with the full house that we brought in that they "gave" us some pizza and beer "on the house."

Yeah, right. Came time to get paid, and they subtracted all of that from the hundred.

I would have added it right back. If they said it was on them there's no way in hell I'd let them charge me for it, shit would have gotten physical.

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Mongoose
The club then says, "well, you guys only brought in about 10 people, which, at $5 a head is $50, and our Production Costs are $100, so you guys actually owe US fifty bucks."

Their fault, they should have advertised better.

It sounds a lot like these jam sessions where you have to pay to be able to play along.

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Mongoose
My band in Atlanta, the Amazing Mongooses (check us out on iTunes, Amazon, and more!) has now been playing clubs for about ten years. We have discovered a disturbing trend that apparently is now "standard procedure" for bands playing clubs in L.A., Nashville, and other cities: "Production Costs" (or, what it really IS: PAY TO PLAY.

For those not aware, what it means is that clubs say to the band, "you have to pay us for 'Production Costs' (meaning the use of their sound and light system, which is sometimes nice, sometimes abysmal)."

Most of the folks who follow the Amazing Mongooses come up to see us in pretty good numbers at clubs where there is no cover. With the economy the way it is, that still winds up being a little expensive when the beers are five bucks each and when you are also expected to order food.

When you say to that same group of people who follow you that there will be a cover charge of five or ten bucks a person, you wind up getting about a dozen people in the room.

The club then says, "well, you guys only brought in about 10 people, which, at $5 a head is $50, and our Production Costs are $100, so you guys actually owe US fifty bucks."

My response is "yeah, and good luck getting that from me right now." However, my son's band was charged $35 by a club despite bringing in a decent crowd, for "Production Costs."

Bottom line, the Amazing Mongooses will continue to play clubs that are "no cover" until they ALL go this route, and then it will be time for me, at the age of 58, to finally call it quits.

This is pretty much due to the fact that there are just too many bands and not enough places to play, and bands are so desperate to play somewhere they will actually agree to this.

The sad part is this: just think how many bands we have all enjoyed over the years who would have been forced to break up and go unheard if this had been going on years ago.

So, fellow IORR band members, has the dreaded "Production Costs/Pay to Play" scam hit YOUR city yet?

Cheers.....

It's been like that here for 20 years already. If you wanna play more than pubs, you gotta pay for security, sound, lights and "promotion" (which is normally a little stamp-ad in the papers at best).

But not all places are like that, and some of the places with those deals are actually quite good. So the thing is to learn where you actually draw people with cover charge and production costs - or simply just play the smaller venues.

For instance, for playing at two of the best venues in Oslo we have to pay something like $1500. We charge $25 for entrance, and usually go break even. Then we sell cds and merch for $200.

The reason we're doing those gigs has to do with exposure, good recordings and to be able to play for a lot of people.

Weirdly enough, the same people will NOT show up when we play smaller pubs for an agreed sum, without paying anything. Seemingly they're coming to the bigger shows just because the venues are cool and hip.

So, we're earning the bucks on the small pubs, playing for 50 people, and we're surviving on the merch for the bigger ones...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-09 10:48 by DandelionPowderman.

That's a delicate subject.

If you don't have to make a living in music and just play for fun I wouldn't bother too much playing for free, but never ever pay to play a club, that's another nail in the coffin of your fellow musicians that get paid.. If you want to go professional by playing your own music / want recognition, you just have to prove yourself and need a bit of luck, as the competition is tough.

When you play in a cover/party band and you keep the venue crowded and the beer tap running till 3 o'clock in the morning, you did the right thing, you'll get payed by club owners 3 or 4 times a week.. If not, there's something wrong with your contract. Make sure your music fits the venue, play the music people want to hear; then there's always a place to play. Many club owners are just rich, even now the recession is striking in Holland too.

It's a jungle out there, only the best survive when it comes to making money in music (any profession actually), regardless the venue, style, or even the street you play. So if this doesn't work, or you get fed up playing cause there's not enough or too much commercial work, consider a music related job. It can be a very satisfying and creative occupation as well.

Below I posted a well known street player in Amsterdam, and he's traveling all over the world, doing all kinds op projects.. I always give him a couple of bucks, like many people, and have a chat with him. He's doing fine, and what an amazing player he is...

To paraphrase Hunter Thompson:

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.

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terraplane
To paraphrase Hunter Thompson:

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.

Hunter was a wise man. I survived 25+ years in the trenches of music distribution, until the business essentially went away on a retail level. Got to do a lot of real cool things. Have a good job now in aviation/aerospace but don't really like it. It's a paycheck. I view it as my penance for having a job I actually liked for the most part for 25 years.

When my Blues band played small clubs we never went the pay to play route, but we were told that if we didn't bring in so many people, we wouldn't be asked back, which always seemed fair to me. I once tried to get us booked into a venue and I was told that fans of blues music don't drink alcohol......really?

When we played the small room (the Plush) at the Key club (twice) we got 100% of the door and the club got the bar. When we played dinner clubs, we got a % of all money spent (...and I'm sure what they told us came in was not accurate).

Pay to play has been around a long time.

I remember 20 something years ago bands had to sell a certain amount of tickets to be able to perform at certain places. These were usually young bands right out of school. They would be exploited by club owners because they knew young kids in that age group had many friends they could draw in.

But lets be honest when you have a band thats in there late 30's and are still amateurs that are not going anywhere and only do it because they enjoy it. Then its more of a hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that, but hobbies cost money.

Sorry if that came across harsh.

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MisterO
Pay to play has been around a long time.

I remember 20 something years ago bands had to sell a certain amount of tickets to be able to perform at certain places. These were usually young bands right out of school. They would be exploited by club owners because they knew young kids in that age group had many friends they could draw in.

But lets be honest when you have a band thats in there late 30's and are still amateurs that are not going anywhere and only do it because they enjoy it. Then its more of a hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that, but hobbies cost money.

Sorry if that came across harsh.

Yes, If I do a gig at a small club where I know I will get paid no more than $100, I will give the money to one of my son's friends and have him shlepp around all the equipment (hire as a roadie), because that, at least for me, can take the enjoyment out of playing. Nothing like a house provided back line when they use good equipment.

Man, it's been that way in Sydney Australia for years. I played in an originals band from 1995 - 2005. We always had to pay the pub for the sound guy (anywhere from 60 to 100 bucks) and then, if we were lucky, our takings in the door would cover the cost. Usually charged 5 bucks a head in the door, and also we had to pay support bands out of that as well. It was often better to be the support band because you could get a fixed fee (about 50 bucks) which the headlining band would have to pay out of their door takings. I remember once we did a video launch gig - played to a good sized pub crowd of 250, all paying 8 bucks a head each. Great show, pub said it was one of the biggest nights in terms of bar takings (our friends drank a lot). Did we see a cut of the bar takings??? No way.... And after paying the sound guy, the support acts, plus the advertising costs we ended up about 200 bucks in the red.....

If you are in a bar band and do not like this practice, it's simple...buy your own club and be the house band. After you pay rent, insurance, food, tax after tax, BMI/ASCAP fees, staff and countless other expenses let me know how it works out for you that you think it's unfair to be charged for a soundman, etc.

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trainarollin
If you are in a bar band and do not like this practice, it's simple...buy your own club and be the house band. After you pay rent, insurance, food, tax after tax, BMI/ASCAP fees, staff and countless other expenses let me know how it works out for you that you think it's unfair to be charged for a soundman, etc.

I know this Italian dude named Rocky guy owns a bar in Denton, TX, I used to work for him but we're still friends. When he's not washing his boat, Mercedes, or riding his ATV's all day on his sizable plot of land behind his giant house, he finds time to pay those expenses. Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from, and it's a business move not personal, but I'm not shedding a tear for the salt of the Earth club owners. His buddy owns a bar in Lower Greenville, the guy is STINKING rich, private plane rich. Might have something to do with the $12 bottles of domestic beer he sells.

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NoCode0680

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trainarollin
If you are in a bar band and do not like this practice, it's simple...buy your own club and be the house band. After you pay rent, insurance, food, tax after tax, BMI/ASCAP fees, staff and countless other expenses let me know how it works out for you that you think it's unfair to be charged for a soundman, etc.

I know this Italian dude named Rocky guy owns a bar in Denton, TX, I used to work for him but we're still friends. When he's not washing his boat, Mercedes, or riding his ATV's all day on his sizable plot of land behind his giant house, he finds time to pay those expenses. Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from, and it's a business move not personal, but I'm not shedding a tear for the salt of the Earth club owners. His buddy owns a bar in Lower Greenville, the guy is STINKING rich, private plane rich. Might have something to do with the $12 bottles of domestic beer he sells.

My point exactly.

The unfortunate thing I see in this is.....
a person playing guitar for 2 hours(or more) in a band in a bar, and paying the owner to play there, and not making a penny(or less), is exerting the exact same amount of energy as the person playing guitar in a band for 2 hours(or less) in an arena and making $200,000(or more) per night.

And then you have the crap rappers who can not play an instrument, or sing properly, who simply go out and spit words (basically they yell at the audience) while a recorded thumping beat track plays in the background and somehow they can find 15,000 people foolish enough who want to pay to get yelled at.

The world has gone crazy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-09 22:44 by Max'sKansasCity.

Perhaps bar and club bands could incorporate the old folk music coffee house tradition of "passing the hat".

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stonehearted
Perhaps bar and club bands could incorporate the old folk music coffee house tradition of "passing the hat".

Have you ever tried getting into a bar in the US with a hat? You'd think somebody was trying to smuggle a bazooka in.

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NoCode0680

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stonehearted
Perhaps bar and club bands could incorporate the old folk music coffee house tradition of "passing the hat".

Have you ever tried getting into a bar in the US with a hat? You'd think somebody was trying to smuggle a bazooka in.

I don't know, I don't wear a hat. Maybe the hat can be concealed in one of the equipment cases, like with the microphone, etc. Yes, passing the hat is not very rock n roll, and people might pour beer in it instead. It was just a thought.

My friend has a standing gig at a dive bar with his cover band once a month. No cover charge and cheap drinks. My friend says they get paid practically nothing and they don't have CD's to sell....but they use the pass the hat method to try to get additional funds...after everyone is drunk. If lucky, they get 40 to 50 people passing thru.

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stonehearted

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NoCode0680

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stonehearted
Perhaps bar and club bands could incorporate the old folk music coffee house tradition of "passing the hat".

Have you ever tried getting into a bar in the US with a hat? You'd think somebody was trying to smuggle a bazooka in.

I don't know, I don't wear a hat. Maybe the hat can be concealed in one of the equipment cases, like with the microphone, etc. Yes, passing the hat is not very rock n roll, and people might pour beer in it instead. It was just a thought.

I know, I was joking around. But it's true you can't get into many bars with a hat. Bouncer told me it had something to do with gangs or some shit.

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NoCode0680
I just assumed that's the way it worked anyway. If it were free everybody and their dog with a kazoo would be trying to play at clubs (probably still do) and the venue would be forced to evaluate all of them. A fee would maybe weed out the less serious and help keep it from being an open mic night. I don't think this is the way it should be, that's just what I thought. Plus most businesses I know of that invest in equipment like that are going to charge for it. Not talking about clubs here, just businesses in general. Like auto shops and their "Shop fee" (or shop tax depending on the garage), which is usually a percentage of the total bill, and it covers various equipment used, rags, whatever. They're basically saying we paid for all this stuff and so we're going to add a flat % to the bill for everybody who uses our shop. As opposed to seeing the equipment as an investment in their business, they see it as they bought it for everybody, and everybody is going to pay them back. I can understand it, but it seems unnecessary. They're likely making more money with a band in the building than they would with an empty bar.

In a nutshell, it's called 'nickel and diming' and any business that does that I don't go to if possible. I remember in the 70s our airport charged for creamers for coffee, 5 cents each.

You must be kidding me. Charge 10 cents more for the coffee and then just shut up already.