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seitan
Redglare didnt even have motive

With junkies, money is always a motive. The stabbing came about to cover-up the fact that a robbery was being discovered while in progress.

You claim Redglare was only attaching himself to the murder to "get his 15 minutes".

But days after the murder, Redglare was already confessing to it, just to one of his friends, creating a witness after the fact. How is he seeking attention by confiding to a friend a few days later?

As for your documentary, I've heard of the convenient "mysterious Michael" theory, aka "the vanishing Brit". Nobody even knows his last name, and then he conveniently vanishes without a trace? He has access to all these elite famous people in New York's drug society and nobody even bothers to find out his last name? The proof that this guy ever existed is some musician's pencil doodling on a piece of paper? Sorry, I can't afford to purchase that bill of goods.

Even if there was a so-called other Michael, I believe Redglare when he says he was there and that he did it. He could have shown up after Michael left, saw the money while he was high and got an idea--you can see from his speech patterns from various interviews that he displays the traits of an impulsive personality. His sentences trail off in ellipses and then new ideas pop up all of a sudden and he then runs off on a new stream of consciousness. Redglare was of an impulsive mind, add that to heroin, and the fact that he was a bit unbalanced and quite possibly a sociopath, and there you go. He had access, knowledge of the people involved, and motive.

That Neon Leon guy saying he heard "Michael" there when on the phone with Nancy, and that other Chelsea resident passing by their door--so what? Purely circumstantial. They heard someone there before the stabbing. They didn't hear the murder as it was taking place. It could have been Redglare showing up on the scene after the other "Michael" left.

Why would Redglare feel the need to unburden himself to a friend a few days later? Because he may have been telling the truth....

Another resident at the sleazy Chelsea Hotel was a would-be actor called Rockets Redglare - who had been born 'Michael Morra'. Interestingly, within days of Nancy's murder he allegedly confessed to a friend that he was the real killer.

Redglare, who was raised in a tough district of Brooklyn, had been an unofficial minder and drugs dealer to the couple. He was a well-known figure on Manhattan's Lower East Side and went on to star with Madonna in the Hollywood movie Desperately Seeking Susan and with Tom Hanks in Big. One English friend of the couple, Zoe Hansen, met Redglare after the killing and says he admitted to her he had been in the room that night and told her: 'I did it.'

Full details at: [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Time caught up with all the rebels ... who survive that is. ..

Real Rebels

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stonehearted

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seitan
Redglare didnt even have motive

With junkies, money is always a motive. The stabbing came about to cover-up the fact that a robbery was being discovered while in progress.

You claim Redglare was only attaching himself to the murder to "get his 15 minutes".

But days after the murder, Redglare was already confessing to it, just to one of his friends, creating a witness after the fact. How is he seeking attention by confiding to a friend a few days later?

As for your documentary, I've heard of the convenient "mysterious Michael" theory, aka "the vanishing Brit". Nobody even knows his last name, and then he conveniently vanishes without a trace? He has access to all these elite famous people in New York's drug society and nobody even bothers to find out his last name? The proof that this guy ever existed is some musician's pencil doodling on a piece of paper? Sorry, I can't afford to purchase that bill of goods.

Even if there was a so-called other Michael, I believe Redglare when he says he was there and that he did it. He could have shown up after Michael left, saw the money while he was high and got an idea--you can see from his speech patterns from various interviews that he displays the traits of an impulsive personality. His sentences trail off in ellipses and then new ideas pop up all of a sudden and he then runs off on a new stream of consciousness. Redglare was of an impulsive mind, add that to heroin, and the fact that he was a bit unbalanced and quite possibly a sociopath, and there you go. He had access, knowledge of the people involved, and motive.

That Neon Leon guy saying he heard "Michael" there when on the phone with Nancy, and that other Chelsea resident passing by their door--so what? Purely circumstantial. They heard someone there before the stabbing. They didn't hear the murder as it was taking place. It could have been Redglare showing up on the scene after the other "Michael" left.

Why would Redglare feel the need to unburden himself to a friend a few days later? Because he may have been telling the truth....

Another resident at the sleazy Chelsea Hotel was a would-be actor called Rockets Redglare - who had been born 'Michael Morra'. Interestingly, within days of Nancy's murder he allegedly confessed to a friend that he was the real killer.

Redglare, who was raised in a tough district of Brooklyn, had been an unofficial minder and drugs dealer to the couple. He was a well-known figure on Manhattan's Lower East Side and went on to star with Madonna in the Hollywood movie Desperately Seeking Susan and with Tom Hanks in Big. One English friend of the couple, Zoe Hansen, met Redglare after the killing and says he admitted to her he had been in the room that night and told her: 'I did it.'

Full details at: [www.dailymail.co.uk]

The "mysterious Michael" theory makes perfect sense to me. Aka "the vanishing Brit" - If you were British - why wouldn't you leave the country if you had a chance to be somewhere else ? Why would real killer stick around on the scene ? Come on, think. You would try to get as far away as possible. And if you just stole Nancy's money, you could get a plane ticket really easy. If you were British - You had a chance to go back London. Why on earth would you stay at the Chelsea. You knew the cops were coming. You knew there would be questions. Why would you stick around ? You would vanish the moment you had a chance. The proof that this guy existed is not Steve Dior's pencil doodling. No, it's every eyewitness that remembers him.

As for Redglare theory - Why would Redglare feel the need to unburden himself to a press years later ? - Why would real killer turn Nancy's death into a stand up comedy routine ? Redglare was a comedian and he wanted to be famous and get attention. It makes sense to me. Would the real killer give interviews to the press - I don't think so.

The Chicago Reader called Redglare "... compulsive hustler who became obese once he decided to substitute beer for drugs," and acknowledges that "... he was also a gifted raconteur", especially in informal, relaxed settings. Seattle newspaper The Stranger wrote that that he became a New York City "alternative celebrity"in the city's East Village bars and clubs where he would drink and tell stories. He told about Nancy's death to everyone.

From Redglare's speech patterns you can't really tell much of anything.

Why would you take a stand up comedian seriously ?

He might display the traits of an impulsive personality, but so what ? There is no evidence of him being a murderer. And if his sentences trail off in ellipses - then so what ? It happens with every stand up comedian and with everyone who has ADHD - and it means nothing on this case. It doesn't make him a murderer.

I know lot of people with ADHD and yeah, new ideas pop up all of a sudden on their head - like with every comedian who has ADHD - It really don't mean that person would be a murderer or psychotic.

Redglare had more than just possible ADHD; he had the background of violence and abuse:

Rockets Redglare was renowned around town as the junkie who sold the dope that killed Sid Vicious after he stabbed Nancy Spungen with his favorite knife at the Chelsea Hotel. Redglare had been a popular dope and speed dealer in the seventies because he was usually too high to count his change. Redglare was a junkie before he was born. His mom was a fifteen-year-old addict named Agnes Tarulli Morra and her son got hooked while still in utero. Michael Morra was born in New York City in 1949. They had to put methadone in his baby formula. His old man was a gangster and his uncles were connected to the mob in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. When his father got deported back to Italy, his mom took up with a junkie boxer who assaulted Morra and ultimately killed his mother. After his mother died, Morra changed his name to Rockets Redglare. A true American original.



His background is further confirmed in a 2003 documentary:

Buscemi, who co-produced the film, had to sue the distributor for the rights, which went to Morra’s family.) He traces Morra’s self-destructive sleaze appeal back to his violent childhood where he was sexually abused by a neighbor; saw the brains of a guy his uncle killed splattered on a wall and the stabbing death of his mother. Through archival footage, home movies and interviews Buscemi, Willem Dafoe, Matt Dillon, Jim Jarmusch, Julian Schnabel and rock critic Lester Banks we see a funny guy with a death wish who never really had a chance. A junkie who’s not too much of a burnout to know he needs a heavier dose if he wants to get any kicks at all. Didn’t matter if it was drugs, booze, jokes or sex, Redglare needed a heavier touch just to taste. But, through it all, he kept his sense of humor, after all “if you make somebody laugh, you can get away with murder.”

In their initial investigation, police were lazy and apathetic toward the sleazy underworld theme of junkie murder. They would never re-open the case, because it would put the focus squarely on their own incompetence. Once Redglare realized this, he could talk all he wanted:

Morra figures heavily in the case. The couple’s Chelsea Hotel room was crowded on the night of the stabbing and Spungen was flashing a wad of cash that was never found during the original investigation. Several people hypothesize, like they did in the oral punk history, that Morra stabbed Spungen and silenced Vicious by giving him an ultra-pure hit of smack.

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stonehearted
Redglare had more than just possible ADHD; he had the background of violence and abuse:

Yeah, well so does every drug addict in New York City.

^ I wouldn't know,.... firsthand.

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seitan
Like I said: Watch the documentary.

Having watched the documentary, I can tell you that I abruptly stopped caring about Sid Vicious by around minute 34 where an associate of his (Mark Helfond, Glen Matlock's flatmate) describes the way Sid hung a cat with a noose, how he wrapped the rope around the cat's neck and just held it there as it struggled and whined, finally urinating and defecating on Sid's feet just before it died, and then Sid just wrapping it in a plastic bag and tossing it in the trash bin outside.

Anyone who tortures an animal like that is just a waste of human space and deserves to be killed.

@#$%& Sid Vicious. I'm glad he died the way he did. A rat who got the rat's death he deserved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-11 02:10 by stonehearted.

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stonehearted
^ I wouldn't know,.... firsthand.

From the documentary:

• At the time of Spungen's killing Vicious had to be out cold, having taken some 30 Tuinal - a powerful sedative.

• Police found fingerprints in the hotel room of six people who were known to them, but none were interviewed.

• The couple's money was missing, and they had a lot at the time with earnings from Vicious's version of the Frank Sinatra tune My Way and recent gigs.

• According to witnesses a drug addict called Michael - blond hair, cute, who lived on the sixth floor of the hotel, visited the couple and was later seen with a wad of cash tied with Spungen's purple hair tie.



Howie Pyro: "There were people in and out of there ( murder scene). I think they were there the same people over and over again. We know that some people said that some drug dealer from Chelsea Hotel had been there at that time. Not Rocket's Redglare, who was another self seeking nutso. Wonderfull person by the way, but crazy."

Rev Victor Colicchio: There is a rumour that it was Rockets Redglare, but he was the first one who insisted that it wasn't Sid. And I don't think someone who committed a murder would look to clear Sid. Also Sid was Rocket's meal ticket at that time and I don't think he would try to jeopardize that and he liked the notoriety of hanging out with Sid.

Sturgis Nikides: When there was a spotlight on him ( Redglare), he would spin a tale or two

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stonehearted

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seitan
Like I said: Watch the documentary.

Having watched the documentary, I can tell you that I abruptly stopped caring about Sid Vicious by around minute 34 where an associate of his (Mark Helfond, Glen Matlock's flatmate) describes the way Sid hung a cat with a noose, how he wrapped the rope around the cat's neck and just held it there as it struggled and whined, finally urinating and defecating on Sid's feet just before it died, and then Sid just wrapping it in a plastic bag and tossing it in the trash bin outside.

Anyone who tortures an animal like that is just a waste of human space and deserves to be killed.

@#$%& Sid Vicious. I'm glad he died the way he did. A rat who got the rat's death he deserved.

Anyone who tortures an animal like that - is an @#$%& and an idiot. I agree but I'm not sure if anyone deserves to die. Killing an animal is another topic all together and I dont wanna go there.

I'm not a fan of Sid either - had no talent as bass player, violent person, never really did anything worth mentioning, didnt really have musical role in Pistols either, just a fashion icon, etc and we might not like Nancy either: prostitute, junkie, etc..but she was murdered. And a murder is a murder. They were both 20 year old kids. And if there is a guilty person walking free, - he or she should face the trial and jail time. It's simple as that. It's still an open case and I find it interesting. not becouse of who they are but becouse it's an open case and not solved at all. Real life Sherlock Holmes mystery there...who did it ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-11 03:13 by seitan.

I still think it was Rockets Redglare.

Someone asks, Why would Rockets do it, because Sid was his meal ticket, he was Sid's minder, etc., and he liked the social cache of hanging with Sid.

Well, he didn't kill Sid, he killed Nancy. And Sid already had a new girlfriend a few months later. And with no prints on the weapon, Sid's lawyers felt they had a strong case.

And then the question about why would Rockets try to clear Sid's name, that he knew Sid didn't do it. Well, how did he know for sure?

People mention there were rumors early on that Rockets was the killer. Why didn't they talk to any of those people? Just because the people interviewed discount his confession and think it may have been this "other Michael", doesn't make it conclusive.

With those several lingering unanswered questions summed up at the end, we will never know for sure.

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stonehearted
I still think it was Rockets Redglare.

Someone asks, Why would Rockets do it, because Sid was his meal ticket, he was Sid's minder, etc., and he liked the social cache of hanging with Sid.

Well, he didn't kill Sid, he killed Nancy. And Sid already had a new girlfriend a few months later. And with no prints on the weapon, Sid's lawyers felt they had a strong case.

And then the question about why would Rockets try to clear Sid's name, that he knew Sid didn't do it. Well, how did he know for sure?

People mention there were rumors early on that Rockets was the killer. Why didn't they talk to any of those people? Just because the people interviewed discount his confession and think it may have been this "other Michael", doesn't make it conclusive.

With those several lingering unanswered questions summed up at the end, we will never know for sure.

Rockets tried to clear Sid's name, - he didn't know for sure, - but they were friends. He was trying to help a friend.
I think Redglare was attention seeker, who loved notoriety. He spoke to way too many people about his involvement with Sid and Nancy and he drew way too much spotlight on himself to be the real killer. Sid was his friend, meal ticket, - so why would he kill Nancy. Stealing Sid's money is not really a motive to kill Nancy when you're getting money from Sid anyway. No need to kill.

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stonehearted

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seitan
Like I said: Watch the documentary.

Having watched the documentary, I can tell you that I abruptly stopped caring about Sid Vicious by around minute 34 where an associate of his (Mark Helfond, Glen Matlock's flatmate) describes the way Sid hung a cat with a noose, how he wrapped the rope around the cat's neck and just held it there as it struggled and whined, finally urinating and defecating on Sid's feet just before it died, and then Sid just wrapping it in a plastic bag and tossing it in the trash bin outside.

Anyone who tortures an animal like that is just a waste of human space and deserves to be killed.

@#$%& Sid Vicious. I'm glad he died the way he did. A rat who got the rat's death he deserved.

That's disgusting!
Anybody doing things like this has blown it with me. And nobody tell me it's been because of drugs. That's bull§$"%. It's in your nature.

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CousinC
That's disgusting!
Anybody doing things like this has blown it with me. And nobody tell me it's been because of drugs. That's bull§$"%. It's in your nature.

Killing a living creature is always disgusting, Killing another human being or any other animal is disguting.
And maybe killing is in our nature as human beings but taking drugs makes it lot easier, that's why lot of soldiers use drugs in the battlefield. I hope that someday Nancy's murder will be solved.

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Bastion
Johnny Rotten has the personality of a huffy 8 year old girl.

He's FAT

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stonehearted
Having watched the documentary, I can tell you that I abruptly stopped caring about Sid Vicious by around minute 34 where an associate of his (Mark Helfond, Glen Matlock's flatmate) describes the way Sid hung a cat with a noose, how he wrapped the rope around the cat's neck and just held it there as it struggled and whined, finally urinating and defecating on Sid's feet just before it died, and then Sid just wrapping it in a plastic bag and tossing it in the trash bin outside.

Anyone who tortures an animal like that is just a waste of human space and deserves to be killed.

This "Mark Helfond" doesn't seem any better. Did he just sit there with his thumb up his you-know-what watching Sid torture & kill this poor animal??? That is just as despicable, IMHO.