I love Pete, but he was a better composer, which creates a conflict.

Hells Yes!!!The Real Me might be one of the baddest bass tracks ever!

Let me put it like this, Pete couldn't, "articulate" his instrument like Ox.

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Let's be honest, Paul had George and Ox had Pete. Pete, IMO, was a very frustrated player; As a writer, he had ideas floating out of his head that he could not ever play. He needed more melodic people around him. Always felt sorry for Pete the guitarist.

I think Pete the guitarist was pretty damn good. For me Quadrophenia was Entwistle's finest moment. Let's not forget that he played brass as well.

I do get a little peeved when people start comparing musicians based on who can play faster or do more tricks. It's music, not the Olympics. The best bassists in rock groups are sometimes so good that they are barely noticed (like our own Bill). Those of you who disparage Sir Paul's talents, I am sending you to your rooms to listen to "Something" off Abbey Road.

sorry that makes you "peeved" but i'll put it like this. if you started a band and needed a bass player who could play any part YOU could think of now matter how fast or slow or off the wall would you pick entwistle or mccartney? of course you pick entwistle because you have proof he can play it. i have no proof mccartney can play everything the ox can though.

the entire argument between me and my friend came about when trying to rank the big 4 of the british invasion, the who, the kinks, the stones and the beatles and we were trying to rank them in several different ways. musicianship, songwriting ability, live performance. it got pretty heated when we got to the bass players ranking or should i say the ox and mccartney.

Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

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Thrylan
Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

Ringo was awesome. Again, technique didn't matter. he was a left-handed drummer who played a right-handed kit. This led to some of his idosyncratic fills. He was also laid back enough to hang back for hours and hours while the songwriters worked out their ideas. Would some pyrotechnic double-bass drummer been better for The Beatles? Absolutely not! The best technique does not always lead to the most soulful music. In fact, it usually doesn't.

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

Ringo was awesome. Again, technique didn't matter. he was a left-handed drummer who played a right-handed kit. This led to some of his idosyncratic fills. He was also laid back enough to hang back for hours and hours while the songwriters worked out their ideas. Would some pyrotechnic double-bass drummer been better for The Beatles? Absolutely not! The best technique does not always lead to the most soulful music. In fact, it usually doesn't.

most drummers, right or left handed, play a kit set up pretty much the same. only differences i see is the snare drum to the left of the drummer or in front between the legs and that seems to be more of the drummers preference then because they are right or left handed.

funny enough me and my friend had no problem ranking keith moon and charlie watts ahead of ringo or mick avory.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 08:55 by keefriffhard4life.

Agreed. I have a sneaking suspicion that if Charlie had discovered the" extrovert" powder sooner, we might have found out he could not only keep up with Moonie, but swing too. I also will note, in Beware of Mr Baker, Charlie is the only drummer of his time that Ginger doesn't savage......worthy of pointing out.

Entwistle by a country mile! As someone said though, it's all subjective and down to personal taste. This is proved by the fact that someone posted that they prefered The Who with Pino on the bass instead of The Ox!!!!! Laughable I know, but each to his own.

As someone else suggested, Paul plays bass like a guiter player.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 09:03 by strat72.

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keefriffhard4life
the entire argument between me and my friend came about when trying to rank the big 4 of the british invasion, the who, the kinks, the stones and the beatles and we were trying to rank them in several different ways. musicianship, songwriting ability, live performance. it got pretty heated when we got to the bass players ranking or should i say the ox and mccartney.

I think you should round it out to the big 5 and include The Cream--in which case it then becomes Ox, Macca, and Bruce. You cannot leave out The Cream because they also had a huge influence on the direction of music and how musicians approached their instruments.

Of course, Bruce and Macca will tell you that they were very influenced by james Jamerson, as no doubt Entwistle would what with the Tamla Mowtown R&B influence running through that London Mod scene.

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

Ringo was awesome. Again, technique didn't matter. he was a left-handed drummer who played a right-handed kit. This led to some of his idosyncratic fills. He was also laid back enough to hang back for hours and hours while the songwriters worked out their ideas. Would some pyrotechnic double-bass drummer been better for The Beatles? Absolutely not! The best technique does not always lead to the most soulful music. In fact, it usually doesn't.

In the recent Ginger Baker bio-doc, Beware of Mr Baker, Baker had this to say about technique: "Bonham had technique, but he couldn't swing a sack of shit! Or Moonie for that matter."

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keefriffhard4life

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Let's be honest, Paul had George and Ox had Pete. Pete, IMO, was a very frustrated player; As a writer, he had ideas floating out of his head that he could not ever play. He needed more melodic people around him. Always felt sorry for Pete the guitarist.

I think Pete the guitarist was pretty damn good. For me Quadrophenia was Entwistle's finest moment. Let's not forget that he played brass as well.

I do get a little peeved when people start comparing musicians based on who can play faster or do more tricks. It's music, not the Olympics. The best bassists in rock groups are sometimes so good that they are barely noticed (like our own Bill). Those of you who disparage Sir Paul's talents, I am sending you to your rooms to listen to "Something" off Abbey Road.

sorry that makes you "peeved" but i'll put it like this. if you started a band and needed a bass player who could play any part YOU could think of now matter how fast or slow or off the wall would you pick entwistle or mccartney? of course you pick entwistle because you have proof he can play it. i have no proof mccartney can play everything the ox can though.

That's exactly the kind of crappy logic I was talking about. By "can play" you mean technical ability, which is important, but secondary. Fast, slow, stand on your head. Doesn't matter. Depends on the type of music, the other people in the band, and a million other things. I would pick the best MUSICIAN for the music I was doing, NOT necessarily the most technically adept player.

But he was kind to Charlie..... means something.

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keefriffhard4life

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

Ringo was awesome. Again, technique didn't matter. he was a left-handed drummer who played a right-handed kit. This led to some of his idosyncratic fills. He was also laid back enough to hang back for hours and hours while the songwriters worked out their ideas. Would some pyrotechnic double-bass drummer been better for The Beatles? Absolutely not! The best technique does not always lead to the most soulful music. In fact, it usually doesn't.

most drummers, right or left handed, play a kit set up pretty much the same. only differences i see is the snare drum to the left of the drummer or in front between the legs and that seems to be more of the drummers preference then because they are right or left handed.

funny enough me and my friend had no problem ranking keith moon and charlie watts ahead of ringo or mick avory.

It has to do with where the start the fills, with the right or left hand. Ringo used the left. which made his fills a little weird (but more interesting).

Two distinctive and unique musicians who were excellent at what they did.

I also think McCartney vs. Entwistle is a very false choice as to whom was "best". each fit perfectly into the band they were in and worked brilliantly with the material (some of McCartney's best bass playing was on songs he didn't write). They were very similar in a lot of ways. McCartney made it look easy. As much of an egotistical guy as he is about his writing and singing, he was never very boastful about his bass playing. But his parts are incredible. It doesn't matter what technique he used to get there, the point is he created those parts and had an amazing sense of harmony...The Ox, likewise, great parts. My only criticism of him is that his desire to be louder and louder and play more "lead" in later years didn't necessarily make him a better bass player, or make his band sound better. Pete Townshend has said essentially the same thing. Yes, he was probably the best "lead bass guitarist" around, but that distinction doesn't hold any particular value for me. I much preferred when his bass playing sounded like a bass, not a lead guitar. But again, that really happened after The Who had made their best records.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 09:15 by 71Tele.

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71Tele
I also think McCartney vs. Entwistle is a very false choice as to whom was "best". each fit perfectly into the band they were in and worked brilliantly with the material (some of McCartney's best bass playing was on songs he didn't write). They were very similar in a lot of ways. McCartney made it look easy. As much of an egotistical guy as he is about his writing and singing, he was never very boastful about his bass playing. But his parts are incredible. It doesn't matter what technique he used to get there, the point is he created those parts and had an amazing sense of harmony...The Ox, likewise, great parts. My only criticism of him is that his desire to be louder and louder and play more "lead" in later years didn't necessarily make him a better bass player, or make his band sound better. Pete Townshend has said essentially the same thing. Yes, he was probably the best "lead bass guitarist" around, but that distinction doesn't hold any particular value for me. I much preferred when his bass playing sounded like a bass, not a lead guitar. But again, that really happened after The Who had made their best records.

I agree with you so when I mention the bass solo in my generation it's not to be argumentative but to point out an early example.

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strat72
Entwistle by a country mile! As someone said though, it's all subjective and down to personal taste. This is proved by the fact that someone posted that they prefered The Who with Pino on the bass instead of The Ox!!!!! Laughable I know, but each to his own.

As someone else suggested, Paul plays bass like a guiter player.

That's because Paul wasn't even the original bass player in The Beatles. He only agreed to move to bass when their first bassist left to pursue and art career. Since Paul learned the guitar first, that's how he approached the bass.

In fact, most bass players back then played bass like guitar players, because that's how bass was looked upon in the 50s and early 60s. The job of bass always went to the band's weakest guitar player.

It's the jazz influence that moved bass playing forward in rock. Bass playing didn't really become a featured lead instrument until Jack Bruce switched from acoustic upright bass to the five-string electric bass with The Graham Bond Organization. You will note also how much Jack Bruce's singing voice came to resemble that of former band mate Graham Bond.

The GBO at the 1965 National Jazz and Blues Festival, Richmond Athletic Grounds, Richmond, Surrey, UK, 7 August 1965.





The GBO from the 1965 film "Gonks Go Beat", performing "Harmonica".

















Baby Can It Be True? from 1965, featuring one of the first uses of the Mellotron by a band....

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keefriffhard4life
i think my point was that mccartney pretty much only strums the bass with a pick because he is a guitar player who switched to bass. most bass players tell you using a pick on a bass for 90% of the time is sacrilege (sp?).

Pick playing is a perfectly valid technique.

Next you'll be be saying that you need to play bass with more than one finger.

(Bass player lovers will know where I'm going with that one).

Harmonica is too cool.

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
i think my point was that mccartney pretty much only strums the bass with a pick because he is a guitar player who switched to bass. most bass players tell you using a pick on a bass for 90% of the time is sacrilege (sp?).

Pick playing is a perfectly valid technique.

Next you'll be be saying that you need to play bass with more than one finger.

(Bass player lovers will know where I'm going with that one).

its valid but but most bass players do not use a pick. its funny that literally the only bass players i can think of right now who seem to always use a pick other than mccartney are gene simmons and the bassist from poison. top of the class right there

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stonehearted

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keefriffhard4life
the entire argument between me and my friend came about when trying to rank the big 4 of the british invasion, the who, the kinks, the stones and the beatles and we were trying to rank them in several different ways. musicianship, songwriting ability, live performance. it got pretty heated when we got to the bass players ranking or should i say the ox and mccartney.

I think you should round it out to the big 5 and include The Cream--in which case it then becomes Ox, Macca, and Bruce. You cannot leave out The Cream because they also had a huge influence on the direction of music and how musicians approached their instruments.

Of course, Bruce and Macca will tell you that they were very influenced by james Jamerson, as no doubt Entwistle would what with the Tamla Mowtown R&B influence running through that London Mod scene.

cream came a bit later and had a much different vibe going on about them and i would probably rank jack bruce 1st if i included cream.

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keefriffhard4life
its valid but but most bass players do not use a pick. its funny that literally the only bass players i can think of right now who seem to always use a pick other than mccartney are gene simmons and the bassist from poison. top of the class right there

Why is using a pick wrong?

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
its valid but but most bass players do not use a pick. its funny that literally the only bass players i can think of right now who seem to always use a pick other than mccartney are gene simmons and the bassist from poison. top of the class right there

Why is using a pick wrong?

most tradional bassist look down on it because you originally played bass with your fingers. ever see someone play a stand up bass with a pick? i know its different but that is the origins of the bass. funny enough that mccartney bass looks like a smaller version of a stand up bass.

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keefriffhard4life
most tradional bassist look down on it because you originally played bass with your fingers.

Fingers? What about just one finger?

My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.

Bill Wyman used a pick a lot as well by the way.

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
most tradional bassist look down on it because you originally played bass with your fingers.

Fingers? What about just one finger?

My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.

Bill Wyman used a pick a lot as well by the way.

really? seems to me a lot of pictures and videos i see of bill he is using fingers.

also not sure why you said "My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.". not ever sure what that means. thank goodness why?

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keefriffhard4life
wanted some opinions on here to make sure i am not crazy. who is a better bass player paul mccartney or john entwistle?

Entwhistle is the better one technically. McCartney is the better one to listen to.

That sums it up pretty nicely, imo. "Better" is a hard word to use in music...

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keefriffhard4life
Really? seems to me a lot of pictures and videos i see of bill he is using fingers.

Bill used a pick extensively with the Stones.. he's on record saying it somewhere.

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also not sure why you said "My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.". not ever sure what that means. thank goodness why?

Because they didn't need no stinkin' rules.

James Jamerson... genius.

Google "the hook".

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
Really? seems to me a lot of pictures and videos i see of bill he is using fingers.

Bill used a pick extensively with the Stones.. he's on record saying it somewhere.

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also not sure why you said "My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.". not ever sure what that means. thank goodness why?

Because they didn't need no stinkin' rules.

James Jamerson... genius.

Google "the hook".

ok. watch out al capone, bill wyman uses a pick.

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keefriffhard4life

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
Really? seems to me a lot of pictures and videos i see of bill he is using fingers.

Bill used a pick extensively with the Stones.. he's on record saying it somewhere.

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also not sure why you said "My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.". not ever sure what that means. thank goodness why?

Because they didn't need no stinkin' rules.

James Jamerson... genius.

Google "the hook".

ok. watch out al capone, bill wyman uses a pick.

Or his thumb...

speaking of the who i just picked up a brand new BBC sessions for only $5.00 total off of ebay.