Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY needs no excuse, but is a distinct expression for Mick Jagger's non-Stones music, whereas MAIN OFFENDER probably springs from Keith Richards' need at its time simply to make some music

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Witness
GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY needs no excuse, but is a distinct expression for Mick Jagger's non-Stones music, whereas MAIN OFFENDER probably springs from Keith Richards' need at its time simply to make some music

If I remember correctly, Mick announced that he would record a solo album. Keith and Ronnie then decided to make albums as well.

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?

- Doxa

They should have stopped after IORR of course, before all the stadium shit happened, the connection with big worldwide companies etc., which ended all artistic freedom and creativity (it was gone anyway).

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?

- Doxa

Not wrong in that sense, but just misguided in that over the long haul it has detracted from their recording legacy of later years, because Mick's decision came at a point when they were still producing mountains of material on a regular basis.

So as a result of Jagger's decision to use the best of his writing material for himself and create a faux-Stones sound for his solo material--leaving Keith with no other option but to fill the time with solo projects himself--people now look back on the 80s and 90s as lacking for memorable quality Stones music being produced. If Mick and Keith had just pooled their talents over those 10 years, there could have been two more Stones albums in the 80s and two more in the early 90s, in which case people would not be looking now at Tattoo You as their last creative high point.

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stonehearted

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?

- Doxa

Not wrong in that sense, but just misguided in that over the long haul it has detracted from their recording legacy of later years, because Mick's decision came at a point when they were still producing mountains of material on a regular basis.

So as a result of Jagger's decision to use the best of his writing material for himself and create a faux-Stones sound for his solo material--leaving Keith with no other option but to fill the time with solo projects himself--people now look back on the 80s and 90s as lacking for memorable quality Stones music being produced. If Mick and Keith had just pooled their talents over those 10 years, there could have been two more Stones albums in the 80s and two more in the early 90s, in which case people would not be looking now at Tattoo You as their last creative high point.

When there is no will, there is no will. Mick and Keith's collaborations ever since have shown that they really don't inspire each other any longer. Jagger understood that quite early (early 80's, probably way earlier). Not any masterpiece Stones album is lost due their solo careers, Quite the contrary: both Mick and Keith have brought us much more quality stuff by their own than together. They both are way more interesting artists when they can follow they own muse and not are thinking like "does this sound tradiotional Rolling Stones-like enough" or making intrinsic artistic compromises like "I'm afraid this is too radical for "him" (Mick/Keith) to stomach".

- Doxa

a risk would be GHS and B&B played in their entirety and me loving every minute of it!

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stonehearted

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?

- Doxa

Not wrong in that sense, but just misguided in that over the long haul it has detracted from their recording legacy of later years, because Mick's decision came at a point when they were still producing mountains of material on a regular basis.

So as a result of Jagger's decision to use the best of his writing material for himself and create a faux-Stones sound for his solo material--leaving Keith with no other option but to fill the time with solo projects himself--people now look back on the 80s and 90s as lacking for memorable quality Stones music being produced. If Mick and Keith had just pooled their talents over those 10 years, there could have been two more Stones albums in the 80s and two more in the early 90s, in which case people would not be looking now at Tattoo You as their last creative high point.

To my belief only Keith's firat album, but it was, as said, aimed at saving the Stones from Mick's temptations outside the Stones, and Mick's third album might mainly be said to have detracted songs from the Stones catalogue. Mick Jagger's other albums were largely different from the Stones, and from Keith's second album only "I Hate It When You Leave" to me had obvious Stones album contential capacity. From SHE'S THE BOSS,though, there was also the superb "Hard Woman". However, apart from the mentionned two albums and the two songs in addtion, I think it is somewhat exaggerated how much the band was made to suffer from solo albums from Mick and Keith. In that respect, it was rather the torn working relations between the two of them that were the critical factor. One main source for this seems to have been dividing opinons as to which kinds of innovation could included in the band's output.( Maybe also the unwillingness of their customers to accept new material had its impact.)

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kleermaker
They should have stopped after IORR of course, before all the stadium shit happened, the connection with big worldwide companies etc., which ended all artistic freedom and creativity (it was gone anyway).

AFTER IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL? I'd possibly say that was their most uninspiring album of the seventies. Maybe after SOME GIRLS and the 78 tour, perhaps, when the Stones had successfully managed to reinvigorate their career in the eyes of the record buying public, and their live performance in the Woodie era was at a pinnacle. However, for me TATTOO YOU was the last Stones album that could honestly be said to contain songs of the calibre to be called classics. The 81/82 tour i agree was quite horrible musically, in retrospect, although the spark of spontaneity within their playing was still very much in evidence. Sometimes i'm inclined to think they would have been better to quit following the release of TATTOO YOU and before the 81 tour - leave the fans wanting more, so to speak, before their performances became merely a spectacle. However, they'd have missed out on so much wonderful cash!

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?



- Doxa

No

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Witness

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stonehearted

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Main Offender came before WS. At the same time as Slide On This, if memory serves...

I seem to remember that Mick, conscious that he had made a brilliant solo album, took care that it should not impair MAIN OFFENDER's possiblities and waited for some time to release WANDERING SPIRIT.

Yep, but he was the first to decide he would take time off from the Stones to record.

Is that illegal or morally wrong?

- Doxa

Not wrong in that sense, but just misguided in that over the long haul it has detracted from their recording legacy of later years, because Mick's decision came at a point when they were still producing mountains of material on a regular basis.

So as a result of Jagger's decision to use the best of his writing material for himself and create a faux-Stones sound for his solo material--leaving Keith with no other option but to fill the time with solo projects himself--people now look back on the 80s and 90s as lacking for memorable quality Stones music being produced. If Mick and Keith had just pooled their talents over those 10 years, there could have been two more Stones albums in the 80s and two more in the early 90s, in which case people would not be looking now at Tattoo You as their last creative high point.

To my belief only Keith's firat album, but it was, as said, aimed at saving the Stones from Mick's temptations outside the Stones, and Mick's third album might mainly be said to have detracted songs from the Stones catalogue. Mick Jagger's other albums were largely different from the Stones, and from Keith's second album only "I Hate It When You Leave" to me had obvious Stones album contential capacity. From SHE'S THE BOSS,though, there was also the superb "Hard Woman". However, apart from the mentionned two albums and the two songs in addtion, I think it is somewhat exaggerated how much the band was made to suffer from solo albums from Mick and Keith. In that respect, it was rather the torn working relations between the two of them that were the critical factor. One main source for this seems to have been dividing opinons as to which kinds of innovation could included in the band's output.( Maybe also the unwillingness of their customers to accept new material had its impact.)

I can easily see 999, Wicked As It Seems, a touched up Running Too Deep and Demon on Stones albums as well. No to mention Words Of Wonder.

Horrible musically, really?











Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 09:48 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
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I can easily see 999, Wicked As It Seems, a touched up Running Too Deep and Demon on Stones albums as well. No to mention Words Of Wonder.

To forget and not include the hardrock song "999", I admit, was a major slip on my part. Apart from that, the demanding criterium was "obvious", and my impression of some other songs is that they are would have needed some elaboration. Therefore are not obvious material for a Stones album. I am not at all so enthusiastic about "Words of Wonder", but will not exclude that some band adaptation could have transformed it into something approaching the interesting. As it was, it was not obvious album material in my judgement. However, "I Hate It When You Leave" is very impressive and a masterpiece in my evaluation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 10:19 by Witness.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness
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I can easily see 999, Wicked As It Seems, a touched up Running Too Deep and Demon on Stones albums as well. No to mention Words Of Wonder.

To forget and not include the hardrock song "999", I admit, was a major slip on my part. Apart from that, the demanding criterium was "obvious", and my impression of some other songs is that they are would have needed some elaboration. Therefore are not obvious material for a Stones album. I am not at all so enthusiastic about "Words of Wonder", but will not exclude that some band adaptation could have transformed it into something approaching the interesting. As it was, it was not obvious album material in my judgement. However, "I Hate It When You Leave" is very impressive and a masterpiece in my evaluation.

I get what you're saying, Witness - although Wicked As It Seems is pretty much made out for a Stones album, and Words Of Wonder probably would have sounded very much the same had Keith sung it on a Stones album.

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DandelionPowderman
Horrible musically, really?

Dandelion, what about 'Let Me Go', 'She's So Cold', 'Lets Spend The Night Together', 'Shattered' etc. I noticed you have picked a couple of those more downbeat and reflective songs, rather than the songs that are more of a true reflection of the 81 tour, where song after song is tossed off much too fast, and in a very offhand way. I still prefer it to the Stones later tours, mind, because there was still a true musical interaction/spontaneity between Keith and Ronnie, and Bill's bass is still pumping quite pleasingly, and Charlie's drums still sound very crisp. However, Jagger sounds for the most part as if he'd really rather be somewhere else, he's really not bothered. There is little real 'soul' to any of those performances (and that refers to the group as a whole for the most part, too). Whatever, however Dandelion, may be the shortcomings within the gruffness and uncommitted style of Jagger's singing, he was still much more capable than he is today, when he set his mind to it, as evidenced on those clips you posted.

However, if you compare any of those 81/82 clips with the LIVE IN TEXAS 78 DVD, that 78 show trumps just about everything 81/82 has to offer, and very much everything ever since. That was the last time, at least as recorded evidence, from what i've heard, that the Stones sound truly on top form.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 11:11 by Edward Twining.

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Edward Twining

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kleermaker
They should have stopped after IORR of course, before all the stadium shit happened, the connection with big worldwide companies etc., which ended all artistic freedom and creativity (it was gone anyway).

AFTER IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL? I'd possibly say that was their most uninspiring album of the seventies. Maybe after SOME GIRLS and the 78 tour, perhaps, when the Stones had successfully managed to reinvigorate their career in the eyes of the record buying public, and their live performance in the Woodie era was at a pinnacle. However, for me TATTOO YOU was the last Stones album that could honestly be said to contain songs of the calibre to be called classics. The 81/82 tour i agree was quite horrible musically, in retrospect, although the spark of spontaneity within their playing was still very much in evidence. Sometimes i'm inclined to think they would have been better to quit following the release of TATTOO YOU and before the 81 tour - leave the fans wanting more, so to speak, before their performances became merely a spectacle. However, they'd have missed out on so much wonderful cash!

In that vein, they could have stopped when they gradually ceased to be an R&B band and started to make rock and pop singles and experimental pop. "Go out on top" with "Little Red Rooster". That would be according to the opinion of somebody in the '60s.

How do you like the suggestion? You would not many of you have had some song(s) or some album(s) that you find indispensable. If you react against it, that will amount to my reaction that they ought to stop at any point in time! I will not miss any issue. (What I would least of all have reacted against, was if TATTOO YOU had been reduced to a maxi single "Waiting on a Friend".]

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Edward Twining

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DandelionPowderman
Horrible musically, really?

Dandelion, what about 'Let Me Go', 'She's So Cold', 'Lets Spend The Night Together', 'Shattered' etc. I noticed you have picked a couple of those more downbeat and reflective songs, rather than the songs that are more of a true reflection of the 81 tour, where song after song is tossed off much too fast, and in a very offhand way. I still prefer it to the Stones later tours, mind, because there was still a true musical interaction/spontaneity between Keith and Ronnie, and Bill's bass is still pumping quite pleasingly, and Charlie's drums still sound very crisp. However, Jagger sounds for the most part as if he'd really rather be somewhere else, he's really not bothered. There is little real 'soul' to any of those performances (and that refers to the group as a whole for the most part, too). Whatever, however Dandelion, may be the shortcomings within the gruffness and uncommitted style of Jagger's singing, he was still much more capable than he is today, when he set his mind to it, as evidenced on those clips you posted.

However, if you compare any of those 81/82 clips with the LIVE IN TEXAS 78 DVD, that 78 show trumps just about everything 81/82 has to offer, and very much everything ever since. That was the last time, at least as recorded evidence, from what i've heard, that the Stones sound truly on top form.

I could easily have picked the songs you mentioned, as they are unique for this tour, and in many ways symbolise what I find great about this tour.

Seriously? The renditions of Let's Spend The Night Together, Let Me Go, Shattered and also Under My Thumb are my favourites ever. The Stones in their prime for me

But there is also some real intricate stuff in the setlist as well - a good mixture, and a long, great setlist.

Time Is On My Side
Twenty Flight Rock
Going To A Go Go
Imagination
Beast Of Burden
Neighbours

I don't get the "too fast-thing", as songs like JJF and SFM were played in a neck-breaking speed in 1972...

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Witness

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Edward Twining

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kleermaker
They should have stopped after IORR of course, before all the stadium shit happened, the connection with big worldwide companies etc., which ended all artistic freedom and creativity (it was gone anyway).

AFTER IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL? I'd possibly say that was their most uninspiring album of the seventies. Maybe after SOME GIRLS and the 78 tour, perhaps, when the Stones had successfully managed to reinvigorate their career in the eyes of the record buying public, and their live performance in the Woodie era was at a pinnacle. However, for me TATTOO YOU was the last Stones album that could honestly be said to contain songs of the calibre to be called classics. The 81/82 tour i agree was quite horrible musically, in retrospect, although the spark of spontaneity within their playing was still very much in evidence. Sometimes i'm inclined to think they would have been better to quit following the release of TATTOO YOU and before the 81 tour - leave the fans wanting more, so to speak, before their performances became merely a spectacle. However, they'd have missed out on so much wonderful cash!

In that vein, they could have stopped when they gradually ceased to be an R&B band and started to make rock and pop singles and experimental pop. "Go out on top" with "Little Red Rooster". That would be according to the opinion of somebody in the '60s.

How do you like the suggestion? You would not many of you have had some song(s) or some album(s) that you find indispensable. If you react against it, that will amount to my reaction that they ought to stop at any point in time! I will not miss any issue. (What I would least of all have reacted against, was if TATTOO YOU had been reduced to a maxi single "Waiting on a Friend".]

The Stones began to lose their muse during the recording of EMOTIONAL RESCUE, Witness. Yes, they had had periods before which were less inspired, but those periods were also mixed with a few magic moments too. Post EMOTIONAL RESCUE, those magic moments seemed to all but evaporate (apart from the odd half decent song like 'Undercover Of The Night'). TATTOO YOU, in a sense, doesn't count because much of it derives from the archives, when the Stones were in a much healthier state. I do give Jagger credit mind, for the brilliant way he finished off those songs, and for the production which made the album so very cohesive. Songs like 'Start Me Up', 'Worried About You' and 'Waiting On A Friend' are the last in a long line of Stones classics in my opinion, and many of those other songs on TATTOO YOU aren't so bad, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 11:32 by Edward Twining.

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DandelionPowderman
I don't get the "too fast-thing", as songs like JJF and SFM were played in a neck-breaking speed in 1972...

Yes, but they had SOUL.

These things come in waves, also for the Stones, Edward.

Have a listen at Voodoo Brew, many cds with astonishing strong material. And that was in 1993! The Dirty Work sessions also revealed surprisingly strong material.

The muse was there, but not the fingerspitzgefühl to know what to do with the material, imo.

A band without its muse, that writes Down In The Hole, Emotional Rescue, All About You and She's So Cold really has a better potential than most bands

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Edward Twining

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DandelionPowderman
I don't get the "too fast-thing", as songs like JJF and SFM were played in a neck-breaking speed in 1972...

Yes, but they had SOUL.

They had flash, not soul. IMO, this has soul, charm, the will to explore on stage, as well as interplay based on equality:

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Edward Twining

Maybe after SOME GIRLS and the 78 tour, perhaps, when the Stones had successfully managed to reinvigorate their career in the eyes of the record buying public, and their live performance in the Woodie era was at a pinnacle.

That seems a good option to me, having stopped there, although I think Ron had his best moments on the '75-'76 tour. But there was a lot of cash involved, then and afterwards. And let's face it guys, the Stones are still touring, regardless the level...

As to the verdict "The Stones began to lose their muse during ,......", there is still the challenge of how to consider the album BRIDGES TO BABYLON , be it the interchange of two solo albums, or what!

[By the way, EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER are to me at least as great as SOME GIRLS. And while it could have been better, I very much like A BIGGER BANG. Of the two singles of 2012, one is up to great and one of a nice B-side-quality. And besides, having entered on this, at its time, while not outright great, VOODOO LOUNGE was a most adequate refinding of their music platform, needed then. Everything in my evaluation. ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 11:48 by Witness.

No need to hang it up when you're making songs like this, imo. All of these songs (1980-1997) are out of their "comfort zone" and exploring and daring, imo:

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DandelionPowderman

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Edward Twining

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DandelionPowderman
I don't get the "too fast-thing", as songs like JJF and SFM were played in a neck-breaking speed in 1972...

Yes, but they had SOUL.

They had flash, not soul. IMO, this has soul, charm, the will to explore on stage, as well as interplay based on equality:

No Dandelion, i don't quite agree. It is to do with commitment, not flash. Commitment, if you are a good singer, should, depending of course on the type of song, lead naturally to a more soulful delivery because it is more believeable. The point i am really making about the 81 tour, is that Jagger just doesn't sound so fully committed, as he did on the 78 tour. Also, for whatever reason in 81 his voice sounds all bunged up and gruff, which combined with a less dedicated delivery, leads to a much less effective vocal performance. You can have your 81 rendition of 'Just My Imagination' - i prefer the 78 live version any day. Jagger sounds so much more sharp and fresh.

As I remember it, the 1981-82 tour was when the Stones came out into the sun from the darker venues from former years. I am not sure if is fully correct, but that is how I remember two concerts in 1982. One other rememberance is of Mick Jagger not only moving, but running round the scene: If that sometimes interfered with his singing, I do not know for sure, but it is very thinkable.His scene clothes, I think, was of a rather sporting kind. (Correct me, please, if I am wrong.) All in all, nice memories!

Added: Not totally, of course, but to some extent there was an element of a deliberate anti-seriousness about some of Mick Jagger's scene acting then (again, according to my memory). Somehow, a distance to darker images of their past. There was some enjoyment about it. So to speak, a cultural code of that moment.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-18 20:04 by Witness.

I agree with DP.....She's so Cold was strong enough to hook me, sell the entire catalogue to me, and a handful of concert tix to boot. As for the tempos, I'll take the 78'-82' high energy, fast versions of all the songs over what we've been presented since B2B. 19th Nervous Breakdown and Its All Over Now will cease to exist if they get any slower. All Down the Line sounds a hell of a lot better with sweat flying, than it does loping around with plenty of room for Chuck to noodle.