Some Music History

A great drummer, but totally wrong for the stones. He also has a lot of stories to tell, but like Keith can sometimes embelish and mis-remember things a bit too much.

I'm amazed that he managed to play like he did whilst being a full blown junkie. I love his drumming on the Graham Bond stuff, but found his playing too heavy handed for Blind Faith, it was a mistake bringing him in to that band imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-06 17:19 by His Majesty.

Jimi Hendrix Vs Eric Clapton

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runaway







Jimi Hendrix Vs Eric Clapton

Silly comparison, something from 1966 Cream - Klooks Kleek bootleg would be more appropriate.

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His Majesty
I love his drumming on the Graham Bond stuff, but found his playing too heavy handed for Blind Faith, it was a mistake bringing him in to that band imo.

Baker brought himself in, much to the dismay of Clapton and Winwood, but both where a bit afraid of him and didn't dare tell him to leave.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
I love his drumming on the Graham Bond stuff, but found his playing too heavy handed for Blind Faith, it was a mistake bringing him in to that band imo.

Baker brought himself in, much to the dismay of Clapton and Winwood, but both where a bit afraid of him and didn't dare tell him to leave.

Mathijs

Afraid ? Really ?

Like they were afraid Ginger would beat them up, or something ?


Does Ginger suffer from some kind of syndrome due to having a girly-sounding name ?

Here's an old thread where he talks even more disparagingly about Mick [www.iorr.org]

Sounds like a jealous old goat

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georgie48

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geoffc
In an interview in the Guardian, Ginger states:

"If truth be known," he continues, "I was the Stones' first drummer. We used to do the interval for Alexis Korner with Mick Jagger, who was like Korner's protege, and Brian Jones. I got on very well with Brian, so we formed a band. Then Charlie [Watts] left Alexis Korner so I could join, and I got Charlie into the Stones. But it was Brian who set the Stones on its path."

Yet another contender for the 'original drummer' position - is this complete bullshit, or is there a grain of truth in it? Ginger and Keith together would have made an interesting partnership...........

Ginger was (maybe still is) a great drummer, but I read quite some interviews of him and he seems to like pissing people off at times. Off course he never was a drummer with the Stones. It's the same as saying that Paul Jones (Manfred Mann) was a singer with the Stones only because he was with Brian Jones and Charlie Watts at some point .... (ah, there still is this rumour that he once replaced Mick Jagger in early 1963 when the latter was ill.)
Also Mick Avory never played with the Stones. He rehearsed only twice with with the guys, who weeks later became The Rollin' Stones as of the first week of July 1962 and started to play live as of July 12, 1962.
We should all know that by now

Did we ever get a confirmation on who actually was the drummer on the first gig on July 12th 1962 ?

Jan Richards

[www.stonesondecca.com]

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Jan Richards


Did we ever get a confirmation on who actually was the drummer on the first gig on July 12th 1962 ?

Mick Jagger:
"The first ever performance we did was in July at the Marquee Club in London and it was billed as Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones. It was just me and Keith, Brian (Jones) and a backing band. No one else – no Charlie (Watts), he wasn’t even there. I remember it exactly. I was 19 years old. Ricky Fenson on bass, Carlo Little on drums and Nicky Hopkins on piano. They all told us to **** off when we tried to hire them but it was a big deal getting a gig at the Marquee because it was the hottest London club. It was a jazz club trying to break into blues. The gig was amazing – the drummer was going mad and Nicky was rocking his electric piano and I remember the crowd going absolutely wild. I was thinking as I was singing, they obviously have to book us again, this is the most rocking gig they’ve had in the Marquee ever. But they didn’t. They didn’t let us back in there for ages because rock was working-class, rubbish music. It didn’t exist on an intellectual level like jazz. They saw the future and they didn’t like it. That was our first gig and the people we wanted to get the point just didn’t get it".

[www.carlolittle.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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DoomandGloom

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stonehearted

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crumbling_mice
No, no I am also aware of the wide variations in style that baker could employ. I knew him around the time he joined Hawkwind (English Space Rock Band). At this time I had the experience of sitting for much of the afternoon with him through a sound check. A very talented drummer, but as I initially stated, I think he is overrated and I never really enjoyed his drumming in any of the various guises he has cropped up in over the decades.

It's purely a personal taste thing, much in the same way we sometimes don't like a guitarist#s style - it doesn't mean that the guitarist is inferior in any way just personal prefernces.

My other comment about not particuarly liking him as a person is the same, purly personal and based on the interactions I had with him and others who I know who have had the occasion to meet or deal with him.

I'll stand by all the above and once more reiterate I think he would not have fitted in well with the Stones.

I would agree on your last point. Though Ginger and Charlie share a jazz background, Ginger's heart is in Africa when it comes to drumming and he seemed to not have the patience necessary to lay down a solid steady back beat for rock n roll the way Charlie can.

Also, can you imagine what Andrew Loog Oldham's reaction to the big lanky [and, frankly, scary] redhead would have been when it came to group image? I suspect that Ian Stuart would have been the second Stone to be sacked, rather than the first.

Baker shows up in various key points of Rock history. Did you know he plays drums on "Band on The Run"?

No, I wasn't aware of that--what track(s) specifically? I've always thought--and read--that Band On The Run was basically Macca's "one man show" with Denny Laine helping out on guitars and Linda on backing vocals. I am aware that Macca was using Ginger Baker's recording studio at one point in addition to the EMI studio in Lagos. I have the 25th anniversary edition of Band On The Run and there is a pull-out folder of Polaroid snapshots from the sessions, and Ginger Baker isn't shown at all. The album's musician credits list only Macca, Laine, and Linda.

I've just checked Mark Lewisohn's account of the Band On The Run sessions from the liner notes of the 25th anniversary edition:

"....There was also some tension with the drummer Ginger Baker, formerly of Cream, who had left England for Nigeria and set up a recording venue in Ikeja. Baker wanted Paul to record all of his album at his place, ARC Studio; to keep the peace, Paul promised to go there for a day. Picasso's Last Words -- a song intentionally fragmented, to reflect Picasso's cubist work -- was taped at ARC. Pleasingly, Ginger Baker joined in the fun, playing a percussive tin of gravel on the song."

So he doesn't actually play drums on the album, but he is indeed there, uncredited.

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Deltics

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Jan Richards


Did we ever get a confirmation on who actually was the drummer on the first gig on July 12th 1962 ?

Mick Jagger:
"The first ever performance we did was in July at the Marquee Club in London and it was billed as Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones. It was just me and Keith, Brian (Jones) and a backing band. No one else – no Charlie (Watts), he wasn’t even there. I remember it exactly. I was 19 years old. Ricky Fenson on bass, Carlo Little on drums and Nicky Hopkins on piano. They all told us to **** off when we tried to hire them but it was a big deal getting a gig at the Marquee because it was the hottest London club. It was a jazz club trying to break into blues. The gig was amazing – the drummer was going mad and Nicky was rocking his electric piano and I remember the crowd going absolutely wild. I was thinking as I was singing, they obviously have to book us again, this is the most rocking gig they’ve had in the Marquee ever. But they didn’t. They didn’t let us back in there for ages because rock was working-class, rubbish music. It didn’t exist on an intellectual level like jazz. They saw the future and they didn’t like it. That was our first gig and the people we wanted to get the point just didn’t get it".

[www.carlolittle.com]

Thanks Deltics !
That Carlo link seams interesting

Jan Richards

[www.stonesondecca.com]

"Also, he looked like a character out of Charles Dickens' @#$%&" ...... Jay Bulger



ROCKMAN

A track from the album recorded with the DJQ2O, Ginger Baker talks about the origin of Ginger Spice, written by trumpet player Ron Miles.

"Ron wrote this tune with me in mind and had never heard of the Spice Girls at the time. Basically in 9/8, the tune has an intriguing 12/8 theme running along underneath. His addition of two guitars to the rhythm section is a little touch of genius."

Ginger Baker with director Jay Bulger [Beware of Mr Baker] during an audience Q&A at the 56th British Film Institute [BFI] London Film Festival, 13 October 2012.

At one point, there is this exchange between Baker and the film's director, Jay Bulger:

Baker: "So much of what is said of me, is just... completely comes out of people's minds, where they want to invent this kind of mad, violent monster. I'm not."

Bulger: "You did break my nose with a [censored] cane. And we all watched it."

Baker: "I did."

Bulger: "Yeah, you did."

Baker: "And I'll tell you what--"

Bulger: "Yeah, we saw it! We've all seen it."

Baker: "--I wish I'd broken your neck!"

Bulger: "Right! I'm glad. Well,..."

Baker: "OK?"

A bit further, when the film's director keeps talking over Baker--after an audience member addresses a question to Baker--Ginger says to the audience: "Now you can see why I broke his nose."

Ginger Baker also makes an appearance in the discography of The Who on the B-side of the U.S. release of the single Substitute in April 1966. Waltz For A Pig is an instrumental performed by The Graham Bond Organization [under the name The Who Orchestra] and credited to composer Harry Butcher [Ginger Baker].





With the publishing royalties [£1,350], Baker bought a car [a Rover 2000]


A 1966 Rover 2000 [UK].

and drove to Oxford to see Eric Clapton play with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers. Baker sat in with Clapton and their playing took off. After the gig, Baker asked Clapton if he wanted to join a new band he was forming, which was to be called Cream.

Absolute wrong drummer for the Stones.

Baker was a great drummer back in the day. Supposedly hard to get along with though in a band setting.

As for the Cream reunion shows - I have to disagree with a previous poster. Baker was a weak link and it showed in the live setting. The cd's and dvd's that were released were compilations from the multiple shows and that format covers the mistakes. In the 2nd NYC/MSG show Ginger openly fueded with Bruce onstage. It was kinda unreal. You had heard of similar situations in the 60's that ultimately led to the demise of Cream but 35 years later? Ginger also lost track of where he was in the set list on multiple occasions and started off playing the wrong songs. Clapton and Bruce were both openly exasperated with Baker onstage.

These days I would much rather hear Steve Jordan on drums if you were going to be playing power trio Cream songs. Nothing against Baker's past achievements. But the sun has set on his drumming skills.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-08 03:31 by 1cdog.

File this little factoid under, "Famous Fill-ins for The Rolling Stones".

I believe even one Ron Wood filled in for a missing member in the early days, no?
Or was Muddy just confusing Woody for Brian when Waters sat with the band many years
later reminiscing? Waters seemed to think Woody was always in The Stones. Sure Woody
loved that remark!

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His Majesty
A great drummer, but totally wrong for the stones.

True, in the same way Beck could never work for them either. They're loose cannons
best left to their own devices. The fusion experiments both undertook are cases in point.

Baker never understood why George pulled him into the "All Things Must Pass" sessions.
Quite right, 'cuz if Baker is telling it as it was, he let loose on jams for "I Remember Jeep"
but Harrison kept curbing him in. Baker really plays with a jazzman's heart, and is best
left there with like-minded musicians. The Stones aren't of that ilk.

Baker seems to really enjoy that outfit from The mid-'70s doing Hendrix material.
No matter how difficult he is, he deserves and should play with as such capable people
to bring the best out in him. Never got respect after Cream, a pity and waste.

Quite true about his junkie years ... then again, sooner or later they all go off the rails,
and Baker was no different. I remember a story I read not too long ago regarding Baker
and his nasty habits, perhaps Cream was in its early formation, perhaps even earlier still,
regardless - someone from his circle was looking for him, probably out for drink, so this
person inquired of Baker's whereabouts to Baker's then-girlfriend, and she gestured down
to the ground and said to find Baker all he need do was follow the blood trail ... sure enough,
this fellow followed the trail out to a local pub and caught up with Baker there.

One hit to the body should be enough ... but then, Baker suffered many and returned the favor.
Gladly.

can you imagine ginger mixing it up with the glimmers ? talk about some knock down huh ?

Sunrise on the Sufferbus is top-notch! I saw Masters of Reality when they played a club in Milwaukee about the time this album came out. I got there early and got a seat right in front of the stage. Just watching Baker from that vantage point was worth the price of admission. Even the obligatory drum solo was tasteful and, somehow, melodic. Baker had a guy (probably his drum tech) crouching behind him who did nothing but hand him cigarettes during the set. (A word of warning: this is the only MOR album that Ginger plays on. The other MOR albums I've checked out don't sound anything like this one and, frankly, aren't my cup of tea at all.)

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1cdog
Absolute wrong drummer for the Stones.

Baker was a great drummer back in the day. Supposedly hard to get along with though in a band setting.

As for the Cream reunion shows - I have to disagree with a previous poster. Baker was a weak link and it showed in the live setting. The cd's and dvd's that were released were compilations from the multiple shows and that format covers the mistakes. In the 2nd NYC/MSG show Ginger openly fueded with Bruce onstage. It was kinda unreal. You had heard of similar situations in the 60's that ultimately led to the demise of Cream but 35 years later? Ginger also lost track of where he was in the set list on multiple occasions and started off playing the wrong songs. Clapton and Bruce were both openly exasperated with Baker onstage.

These days I would much rather hear Steve Jordan on drums if you were going to be playing power trio Cream songs. Nothing against Baker's past achievements. But the sun has set on his drumming skills.

Yeah I was there and that's what i saw happening. It was the history of Cream played out in one performance. EC just raced through White Room and Crossroads..

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stonehearted

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DoomandGloom

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stonehearted

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crumbling_mice
No, no I am also aware of the wide variations in style that baker could employ. I knew him around the time he joined Hawkwind (English Space Rock Band). At this time I had the experience of sitting for much of the afternoon with him through a sound check. A very talented drummer, but as I initially stated, I think he is overrated and I never really enjoyed his drumming in any of the various guises he has cropped up in over the decades.

It's purely a personal taste thing, much in the same way we sometimes don't like a guitarist#s style - it doesn't mean that the guitarist is inferior in any way just personal prefernces.

My other comment about not particuarly liking him as a person is the same, purly personal and based on the interactions I had with him and others who I know who have had the occasion to meet or deal with him.

I'll stand by all the above and once more reiterate I think he would not have fitted in well with the Stones.

I would agree on your last point. Though Ginger and Charlie share a jazz background, Ginger's heart is in Africa when it comes to drumming and he seemed to not have the patience necessary to lay down a solid steady back beat for rock n roll the way Charlie can.

Also, can you imagine what Andrew Loog Oldham's reaction to the big lanky [and, frankly, scary] redhead would have been when it came to group image? I suspect that Ian Stuart would have been the second Stone to be sacked, rather than the first.

Baker shows up in various key points of Rock history. Did you know he plays drums on "Band on The Run"?

No, I wasn't aware of that--what track(s) specifically? I've always thought--and read--that Band On The Run was basically Macca's "one man show" with Denny Laine helping out on guitars and Linda on backing vocals. I am aware that Macca was using Ginger Baker's recording studio at one point in addition to the EMI studio in Lagos. I have the 25th anniversary edition of Band On The Run and there is a pull-out folder of Polaroid snapshots from the sessions, and Ginger Baker isn't shown at all. The album's musician credits list only Macca, Laine, and Linda.

I've just checked Mark Lewisohn's account of the Band On The Run sessions from the liner notes of the 25th anniversary edition:

"....There was also some tension with the drummer Ginger Baker, formerly of Cream, who had left England for Nigeria and set up a recording venue in Ikeja. Baker wanted Paul to record all of his album at his place, ARC Studio; to keep the peace, Paul promised to go there for a day. Picasso's Last Words -- a song intentionally fragmented, to reflect Picasso's cubist work -- was taped at ARC. Pleasingly, Ginger Baker joined in the fun, playing a percussive tin of gravel on the song."

So he doesn't actually play drums on the album, but he is indeed there, uncredited.

I read that too but to me the drumming on Band on The Run was a mystery. I don't think that's Paul there. You can hear the flippy floppy Baker style there, Mac like to create a narrative.

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DoomandGloom

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stonehearted

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DoomandGloom

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stonehearted

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crumbling_mice
No, no I am also aware of the wide variations in style that baker could employ. I knew him around the time he joined Hawkwind (English Space Rock Band). At this time I had the experience of sitting for much of the afternoon with him through a sound check. A very talented drummer, but as I initially stated, I think he is overrated and I never really enjoyed his drumming in any of the various guises he has cropped up in over the decades.

It's purely a personal taste thing, much in the same way we sometimes don't like a guitarist#s style - it doesn't mean that the guitarist is inferior in any way just personal prefernces.

My other comment about not particuarly liking him as a person is the same, purly personal and based on the interactions I had with him and others who I know who have had the occasion to meet or deal with him.

I'll stand by all the above and once more reiterate I think he would not have fitted in well with the Stones.

I would agree on your last point. Though Ginger and Charlie share a jazz background, Ginger's heart is in Africa when it comes to drumming and he seemed to not have the patience necessary to lay down a solid steady back beat for rock n roll the way Charlie can.

Also, can you imagine what Andrew Loog Oldham's reaction to the big lanky [and, frankly, scary] redhead would have been when it came to group image? I suspect that Ian Stuart would have been the second Stone to be sacked, rather than the first.

Baker shows up in various key points of Rock history. Did you know he plays drums on "Band on The Run"?

No, I wasn't aware of that--what track(s) specifically? I've always thought--and read--that Band On The Run was basically Macca's "one man show" with Denny Laine helping out on guitars and Linda on backing vocals. I am aware that Macca was using Ginger Baker's recording studio at one point in addition to the EMI studio in Lagos. I have the 25th anniversary edition of Band On The Run and there is a pull-out folder of Polaroid snapshots from the sessions, and Ginger Baker isn't shown at all. The album's musician credits list only Macca, Laine, and Linda.

I've just checked Mark Lewisohn's account of the Band On The Run sessions from the liner notes of the 25th anniversary edition:

"....There was also some tension with the drummer Ginger Baker, formerly of Cream, who had left England for Nigeria and set up a recording venue in Ikeja. Baker wanted Paul to record all of his album at his place, ARC Studio; to keep the peace, Paul promised to go there for a day. Picasso's Last Words -- a song intentionally fragmented, to reflect Picasso's cubist work -- was taped at ARC. Pleasingly, Ginger Baker joined in the fun, playing a percussive tin of gravel on the song."

So he doesn't actually play drums on the album, but he is indeed there, uncredited.

I read that too but to me the drumming on Band on The Run was a mystery. I don't think that's Paul there. You can hear the flippy floppy Baker style there, Mac like to create a narrative.

Really? You think it's Ginger on Band On The Run? Myself, I still hear the same muffled, straight-on drumming sound from the McCartney I and Ram albums. Just before leaving the UK for the recording sessions his regular drummer Denny Siewell quit, so one would assume that Macca, resourceful as he is, would just do what he did when Ringo wasn't in the studio for Beatles sessions: get behind the kit himself.

There is one thing, though: If Ginger did play drums on the album, then why didn't Paul give him musician's credit? Baker was always very touchy about not having gotten due writing credit in Cream, so for this project you would think he would have demanded it. Credit like that would help in terms of earning royalties.

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stonehearted
Ginger Baker also makes an appearance in the discography of The Who on the B-side of the U.S. release of the single Substitute in April 1966. Waltz For A Pig is an instrumental performed by The Graham Bond Organization [under the name The Who Orchestra] and credited to composer Harry Butcher [Ginger Baker].





With the publishing royalties [£1,350], Baker bought a car [a Rover 2000]


A 1966 Rover 2000 [UK].

and drove to Oxford to see Eric Clapton play with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers. Baker sat in with Clapton and their playing took off. After the gig, Baker asked Clapton if he wanted to join a new band he was forming, which was to be called Cream.

Nice story!

Years ago, '95? I caught a Creamy kinda show that had Bruce headlining with his band
and "featuring" Ginger Baker. So after Jack's set, the two of 'em get up there with Clapton
wannabe, complete with blown hair, Blues Saraceno. Good show, they played many a Cream
tune. Baker, even then, was PHENOMENAL. But yeah, by the time of the '05 shows, he had
diminished. Still played well despite the critiques above. I thought their rendition of
"We're Going Wrong" melted away the years. On others, the time span was obvious.

One thing I took away from that club show was that, during Baker's solo on "Toad",
Bruce smoked away just offstage, but he looked really annoyingly at Baker.
The eyes - the tension cut through the smoke. Still they were flawless.

Stonehearted, thanks for that, I hadn't realized. Nice stepping stone!

Beware of Mr. Baker--be very afraid when it goes into general release on 25 January.





Here is a write-up by David Fricke in a recent issue of Rolling Stone

www.rollingstone.com/music/blogs/alternate-take/beware-of-mr-baker-a-documentary-about-the-genius-and-terror-of-drummer-ginger-baker-20121204

as well as a short interview with film maker Jay Bulger

palmdesert.patch.com/articles/psiff-5-questions-with-beware-of-mr-baker-filmmaker#photo-12881341

The film is being screened this Friday and Saturday at the Palm Springs International Film Festival.