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Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: The Joker ()
Date: December 26, 2004 22:23

There are three or four concerts reportedly played without B.Jones in the mid sixties because Jones had collapsed.

Is there any boot emerging from those gigs ? It is surely interesting to listen to the Stones playing like the Who, ie as a power rock instrumental trio.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Deidre ()
Date: December 26, 2004 23:49

This happened a lot on the Licks tour, Joker! (But with lead singer).

Occasionally it was just Jagger, Watts and their bass player too.

Infact that bass player was more solid and consistent than the 'second' guitarist.

Not a nice thing to say at the season of good will. But I was amazed at how Keith, Charlie and Mick could carry the show so well with a sometimes AWOL Ronnie. Credit to them.

You know, maybe if they got rid of, or lessened the role of, Chuck and the backups, it would force the issue of true guitar dynamics back to the fore. Where it was in the sixties with Jones, and in the seventies/early eighties with Taylor then Wood.

But, in Who style, they were still exciting as a four-piece on the Licks tour.

Am I too cynical/critical in thinking that it's Mick, Keith and Charlie in the studio on this new album - without an integral role for Ronnie?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2004-12-26 23:51 by Deidre.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Fred ()
Date: December 27, 2004 03:14

You might be right Deidre. Maybe the guitarists get lazy while the music is carried by Chuck and by the horns.

I remember when I got My first boot of the 78 tour I thought they sounded kinda thin (audience rec). But when I listen to these concerts toda I really enjoy the interaction between Keith and Ronnie.

Fred

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: December 27, 2004 03:43

The Joker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are three or four concerts reportedly played
> without B.Jones in the mid sixties because Jones
> had collapsed.
>
> Is there any boot emerging from those gigs ?


Nope.

There are barely a dozen shows from the Brian Jones era in circulation, and not a single audience recording from all of those shows they did in North America for some reason (the only US show in circulation - aside from Tv broadcasts such as TAMI show, Ed Sullivan etc - is Honolulu '66, their last US show with Brian and taken from a broadcast)

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: john r ()
Date: December 27, 2004 04:42

Dierdre you may or may not have inferred from my posts I'm a big fan of Ron W (as I am of Brian & Mick T); I do think however Leavell, and on some songs the horns, allow the guitarists to perhaps coast. Certainly when RW is drunk/high, & mugging about (I saw him on good nights and one clear bad one). I hope the marginalization does not continue if he is sober. The BJ/MT/RW niche has been difficult for all 3 to maintain over the long haul, for I assume various reasons, some having to do with the 3 individuals & some with the family dynamics.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Wuudy ()
Date: December 27, 2004 04:57

I saw the Rock 'n Roll circus last night. Apart from No Expectations i couldn't hear Brian play on any other song.

Cheers,
Wuudy

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: BOBM ()
Date: December 27, 2004 13:08

I don't have an ear for music, and apparently it's a blessing of sorts. Every time I go to a Stones concert I am impressed with the "perfection" of the performance. To me the live music is flawless, and I am in awe of how "perfect" it sounds. In fact the only two or three examples I can recall of somehing that stood out as imperfect came from notes that Keith played. One was the last note played at the end of the first verse of Street Fighting Man during the MSG Licks tour pay per view, and the other two were from opening riffs of Gimme Shelter from Wembley 6-11-99, and the end of the opening riff of Route 66 during one of the shows. Ronnie's playing sounds fine to me, so I guess being technically ignorant of guitar tuning, and not having "an ear" to discern the various details of the performance is not so bad.

P.S. To Mathijs: I have heard nothing but accolades about Flip the Switch, so why can't you circulate a CDR of Stones covers for us? I, for one would gladly pay $10-15 for a two disc set to help cover expenses. (And I don't need artwork either!) The 'bootleg' video seems like a great set list, but I don't have any video to trade for it, and I'm hoping someone will have a good audio.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: LA FORUM ()
Date: December 27, 2004 14:03

Brian plays but is turned down to zero with overdubs by Keith put in later.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: LA FORUM ()
Date: December 27, 2004 14:03

added

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: john r ()
Date: December 27, 2004 21:35

LA Forum what are you referring to, the r & r circus?
Re that program I do hear 2 guitars during JJF, after the first verse or so, I think beginning during the chorus - unsure if it's Brian or KR overdubbed shortly thereafter.
Re BOBM: Ron has never been a big on technical 'perfection' player, nor has KR; they dont strive for that. But both are great musicians; Ron's songwriting/guitar/bass etc is well on display from the Birds, Jeff Beck Group, & especially Faces (and Rod Stewart's concurrent solo career) 1969 - 75. Ron had some fines shows I saw last year in the US (NY & Boston),as well as one at which he essentially stopped playing, appearing to be f***ed up. His drug/alcohol probs, & numerous detoxes have fueled an increasing marginalization w/in the band (deja vu...), tho he looks great (clear) in the Charlatins photos. I listen more for personality & style than technique (which is always a means to an end)in any musician & KR, RW, & MT all have inimitable style & personality.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Date: December 29, 2004 11:28

<so why can't you circulate a CDR of Stones covers for us?>

Check their website - you can download there.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: saltoftheearth ()
Date: September 30, 2008 15:30

Quote
The Joker
There are three or four concerts reportedly played without B.Jones in the mid sixties because Jones had collapsed.


According to Bill's book 'Stone Alone' there were more concerts which Brian was missíng.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: September 30, 2008 15:48

There is one aud recording, I believe Buffalo 65 but I might be wrong that is a very rough tape though! Hard to hear.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 30, 2008 15:56

Are there set lists for the gigs where Brian was missing?

Makes you think, would they have played without Keith during the Brian era had Keith been too ill to play!?

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: September 30, 2008 17:11

According to Bills book the possible missed shows w/Brian are Milwaukee(11-11-64),Fort Wayne(11-12),Dayton(11-13),Louisville KY(2 shows 11-14) and returned for Chi.(end of tour) Set list taken from: Tell Me,Around & Around, Off The Hook,Time Is On My Side,Its all Over Now,I'm Alright,Not fade Away,If You Need Me,Carol and I'm A King Bee.
Bill says they played Milwaukee w/o Brian and it was a small crowd. He says the next three gigs"the aud went wild and I'm sure some of them didnt notice Brian was not there as Keith worked extra hard to make up for his absence".
I guess theres not really any songs on the list that coudnt be performed w/o Brian with the possibility of Not Fade Away that has harp and vocals overlapping?Was Mick playing harp on King Bee since theres a little slide work in the middle?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-09-30 17:29 by scottkeef.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Sohoe ()
Date: September 30, 2008 17:21

Brian missed some 6-8 British concerts in 63-64. Mostly due to his asthma...I also remember something about him missing a show because he got stuck in traffic.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: September 30, 2008 18:25

Quote
scottkeef
There is one aud recording, I believe Buffalo 65 but I might be wrong that is a very rough tape though! Hard to hear.

Youve heard it? If so, can you circulate it?

theres some 1965 shows in circulation but there isnt a single audience recording from any Brian-era US show that I'm aware of.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: straycat58 ()
Date: September 30, 2008 18:47

As far as I know is not Buffalo 65 but 1966 and it's the Honolulu in worse audio ciruclating with wrong title.
Anyway, easy to detect. Listen to it and tell us the setlist.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Sleepy City ()
Date: September 30, 2008 18:58

Though not missing, several songs during the 1967 European Tour performances were performed with just Keith on guitar while Brian played other instruments.

Despite Keith's insistence that The Rolling Stones only worked well with (at least) two guitars, I actually like hearing just one guitar occasionally, such as on 'Goin' Home'.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: September 30, 2008 19:04

I'll have to think where it was I d/l this supposed 65 US aud show(I deleted it because it was practically unlistenable so straycat may be right) It might just be another show wrongly listed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-09-30 19:04 by scottkeef.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Zack ()
Date: September 30, 2008 21:05

I think all told it was a lot more than just three or four shows that Brian missed. The fact was the Stones were capable of putting on their show without Brian.

Which begs the question, could the Stones have done the show with Brian but not Keith? Don't think so.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: neptune ()
Date: September 30, 2008 23:30

Quote
Zack
I think all told it was a lot more than just three or four shows that Brian missed. The fact was the Stones were capable of putting on their show without Brian.

Which begs the question, could the Stones have done the show with Brian but not Keith? Don't think so.


Of course they could have played without Keith from 1963-1965. The band would have had to play more songs using slide. The Chuck Berry songs could have been done since Brian's rhythm would have been enough.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: September 30, 2008 23:38

Wha........? Around & Around, Carol, Roll Over Beethoven, Route 66, Talkin About You,Down The Road Apiece, Memphis?!! I dont think so. They could have done a more blusier set but the Berry songs w/o Keith's ripping leads? NO WAY!

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: neptune ()
Date: September 30, 2008 23:40

Quote
The Joker
There are three or four concerts reportedly played without B.Jones in the mid sixties because Jones had collapsed.

Is there any boot emerging from those gigs ? It is surely interesting to listen to the Stones playing like the Who, ie as a power rock instrumental trio.


The Stones without Brian? How lame.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: Erik_Snow ()
Date: September 30, 2008 23:44

....and if Jagger was missing as well as Keith, I'm sure neptune will confirm that tambourine, vocals and harmonica would be an easy job for Brian - alongside with doing rythm and slide solos

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: neptune ()
Date: October 1, 2008 01:49

Quote
scottkeef
Wha........? Around & Around, Carol, Roll Over Beethoven, Route 66, Talkin About You,Down The Road Apiece, Memphis?!! I dont think so. They could have done a more blusier set but the Berry songs w/o Keith's ripping leads? NO WAY!

Brian's rhythm was just as important as Keith's leads in their live renditions of Berry covers. Just listen to the live footage from that era on youtube. Brian's guitar was very important to the Stones' sound back then and their live shows must have suffered whenever Brian was MIA. In addition, Bill said that the greatest shows of the 1964 US tour were in Chicago, when Brian returned from his illness and subsequently gave the band a huge boost.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: neptune ()
Date: October 1, 2008 01:58

Quote
Erik_Snow
....and if Jagger was missing as well as Keith, I'm sure neptune will confirm that tambourine, vocals and harmonica would be an easy job for Brian - alongside with doing rythm and slide solos

Hey, there have been a few posts on this thread 'confirming' that the Stones were just fine live without Brian Jones during the 1964 tour. All I'm saying is that's utterly ridiculous. Keith himself has said that the shows without Brian were awfully hard on him, and his performance suffered as a result. Brian was an absolutely necessary component to the band's sound back in the early days, and to believe otherwise would be terribly ignorant.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: October 1, 2008 02:06

I dont think theres anyone here that doesnt value highly Brians influence and importance to the Stones early sound(after all it WAS his band to begin with) but to say something as absurd as Brians rythm on the Berry numbers would be enough is equally "utterly ridiculous"! Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: October 1, 2008 08:53

>> Keith himself has said that the shows without Brian were awfully hard on him, and his performance suffered as a result <<

when/where did he say his "performance suffered", please and thank you?
that he had to work harder is pretty obvious ...

Re: Brian Jones area - concerts without Jones
Posted by: behroez ()
Date: October 1, 2008 17:54

Yes I think you are right. That's why the R&R Circus is such a lame (at least to me) show. Brian played on almost all the songs of Beggars but only on one with guitar (No Expectations) on the rest he plays harp, sitar, mellotron and tambura, although at the end results his contributions are almost mixed into non-existance. Brian had made it very clear at the beginning of '68 during an interview that if there is no place for expirimental sounds on the new album he'll be out! And let's face it Brian playing the mellotron on Let's Spend the Night Together during the '67 European tour was absolutly brilliant, the best Let's Spend the Night I've ever heard! And I really think the Glimmer Twins did a wrong thing with the Circus in trying to force an unwilling Brian to play guitar. They should have left Brian free to play what and how he wanted on those songs during the show, that's how many of the great '66 and'67 songs came into being by Brian just picking up an instrument and improvising. Just imagine Jumping Jack with Brian on mellotron, wow that must have sounded quite like something. But instead we've got a poor bloodless R&R Circus version of this powwerfull song. Shame.

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