Tell Me :
Talk
I've come to think he was a groupie who happened to play music - sorry to be so harsh - i've read tons - i know a couple of people who were there (one in particular who was in the burritos with gram and has told me what it was like to try and drag gram away from the stones - on gig nights)
Agree 100%.
Gram has become almost sanctified to some. But I just can't get into that weak voice, the weak music.......The only time I appreciated his songs were when others sang them. I can give him credit, but I agree that his mythology is overstated.
And to the point that gets repeated ad-nauseum for decades: you're correct: GP wanted to be Mick, not the other way around. Stanley Booth makes me laugh with his claims that Mick was painfully jealous of Gram. Of what? He was a young hipster kid who hung around Keith. I don't doubt Mick can be possessive toward his friends, but not as possessive as Keith. Maybe that's why Keith constantly made that claim: Gram tried to be Mick. And he had a flock of sycophants to convince him he was.
right - on many levels he was a poser - he could AFFORD to look and act the part - plus, he screwed over so many bandmates, was EXTREMELY unprofessional on many levels - yet he gets a pass because "hey man, without, gram - no eagles - no wild horses , no - " BS
Oh, tell us more! Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He gets a pass because he died young and attractive. Between that and Keith's retroactive tales about him, a mythology was created. He wrote a few really good songs but I personally cannot get through an entire Gram Parsons album.
I agree, HB, and I'm a fan of Parsons. I used to play some of those Gram-fests down in Joshua Tree (they still have them there), and while fun at first, the last few were kinda silly due to the fan worship, like he put the moon in the sky.
There were others that did the country-rock hybrid so much better, and at around the same time: Nesmith, Gene Clark, the Dillards, Hillman's tunes on Younger Than Yesterday, Rick Nelson, among others. I admit that I have a bias towards Nesmith, but I'll take his Monkee tunes, the Nashville session from 1868, and his first 3 First National Band records over Gram's solo stuff.
That being said, I do think the first Burrito's record, The Gilded Palace Of Sin, is an absolutely brilliant record. Truly original.
BTW, there's a great book about the Burritos called Hot Burritos that is worth searching out, written with Chris Hillman. Hillman's pretty hard on Gram and on himself. A good read.
Damn stonesrule.....
You know we'll never leave you alone now ......right?
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. While some absolutely valid points are being made regarding his over-hyped myth, I really think a lot of his tunes are effin' fantastic. I would have probably never found out about this kind of music anywhere else. He has provided me with countless hours of enjoyment. I'm grooving on "We'll Sweep Out the Ashes in the Morning" right now. Yeah, "Still Feeling Blue" just came on. Pure excellence.
well, uh, yeah, this is sorta cool to know
Interesting story, stonesrule....but "Gram and his long blond hair and pasty face"
--------Gram Parsons had dark brown hair, not blonde. Perhaps you're mistaking him for, maybe, Mick Taylor?
Strange I got the same thoughts for Michael Jackson
HMN
wow, 24FPS -- brilliantly and succinctly put -- wonderful post!
- swiss
Actually, Sharon, you've mentioned it a couple of times in the last couple months.
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
hbwriter
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:00
--In my opinion at least - I'll say up front I find Gram Parsons to be one of the most over rated - if not THE most over rated musician in history. I simply don't get it - i find the voice weak - the songs weak - to me he is a guy with lots of money and but a little talent - but who seemed to think that style, attitude and a general ability to glom on to what others is what made the artist. A couple of strong moments? Sure. Some good writing? Yes. But those sorts of artists are a dime a dozen. The Eagles nor the Stones nor a host of other artists did not directly "lift" Gram's "cosmic american music" (so pretentious is that term) as many suggest - in the great cauldron of musical stew, things happen - period.,
But I digress - for all the Keith-becoming-Gram-becoming-Keith mythology that exists - I find the most telling thing about Gram to be this video - in which he lays out a thin, bordering pathetic mime, or at least what he perceives to be a mime - of Mick Jagger. As he has in other videos as well. Forget the alleged Keith connection with Gram - I think Keith was just a cozy front row seat for Gram to observe the true object of his desire - Jagger
But I digress - for all the Keith-becoming-Gram-becoming-Keith mythology that exists - I find the most telling thing about Gram to be this video - in which he lays out a thin, bordering pathetic mime, or at least what he perceives to be a mime - of Mick Jagger. As he has in other videos as well. Forget the alleged Keith connection with Gram - I think Keith was just a cozy front row seat for Gram to observe the true object of his desire - Jagger
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Edith Grove
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:03
IMO, and I'm far from an expert on Gram, I think Gram might have had desire for Mick as a front man, but was more of a "kindred spirit" with Keith.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
windmelody
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:10
Years ago I read about Gram and Keith, so I ran and got me Gram's music, I was surprised how weak it was.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
hbwriter
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:21
Quote
Edith Grove
IMO, and I'm far from an expert on Gram, I think Gram might have had desire for Mick as a front man, but was more of a "kindred spirit" with Keith.
I've come to think he was a groupie who happened to play music - sorry to be so harsh - i've read tons - i know a couple of people who were there (one in particular who was in the burritos with gram and has told me what it was like to try and drag gram away from the stones - on gig nights)
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Title5Take1
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:37
I don't know his music enough to judge it, but did change my attitude a bit about his bailing on the Byrds. I'd read more than once he was to go to South Africa with the Byrds, and then Keith told him, "South Africa is totally segregated. Worse than Alabama." So, in moral protest, Parsons declined to go to South Africa. I thought, How noble. But then I recently read another member of the Byrds say, "It was easy for Gram to back out of South Africa. He was a rich kid with family money! The rest of us Byrds had to go to South Africa or starve."
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:44
Quote
hbwriter
--In my opinion at least - I'll say up front I find Gram Parsons to be one of the most over rated - if not THE most over rated musician in history. I simply don't get it - i find the voice weak - the songs weak - to me he is a guy with lots of money and but a little talent - but who seemed to think that style, attitude and a general ability to glom on to what others is what made the artist. A couple of strong moments? Sure. Some good writing? Yes. But those sorts of artists are a dime a dozen. The Eagles nor the Stones nor a host of other artists did not directly "lift" Gram's "cosmic american music" (so pretentious is that term) as many suggest - in the great cauldron of musical stew, things happen - period.,
But I digress - for all the Keith-becoming-Gram-becoming-Keith mythology that exists - I find the most telling thing about Gram to be this video - in which he lays out a thin, bordering pathetic mime, or at least what he perceives to be a mime - of Mick Jagger. As he has in other videos as well. Forget the alleged Keith connection with Gram - I think Keith was just a cozy front row seat for Gram to observe the true object of his desire - Jagger
Agree 100%.
Gram has become almost sanctified to some. But I just can't get into that weak voice, the weak music.......The only time I appreciated his songs were when others sang them. I can give him credit, but I agree that his mythology is overstated.
And to the point that gets repeated ad-nauseum for decades: you're correct: GP wanted to be Mick, not the other way around. Stanley Booth makes me laugh with his claims that Mick was painfully jealous of Gram. Of what? He was a young hipster kid who hung around Keith. I don't doubt Mick can be possessive toward his friends, but not as possessive as Keith. Maybe that's why Keith constantly made that claim: Gram tried to be Mick. And he had a flock of sycophants to convince him he was.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Bliss
()
Date: March 11, 2012 19:53
Wow, that's embarrassing. I think Gram is channeling Cliff Richard in that clip.
Gram and Keith had a deep bond - heroin.
But there is no denying that Keith's association with GP generated some of the very best, most powerful and moving Stones material.
Gram and Keith had a deep bond - heroin.
But there is no denying that Keith's association with GP generated some of the very best, most powerful and moving Stones material.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
hbwriter
()
Date: March 11, 2012 20:23
Quote
Title5Take1
I don't know his music enough to judge it, but did change my attitude a bit about his bailing on the Byrds. I'd read more than once he was to go to South Africa with the Byrds, and then Keith told him, "South Africa is totally segregated. Worse than Alabama." So, in moral protest, Parsons declined to go to South Africa. I thought, How noble. But then I recently read another member of the Byrds say, "It was easy for Gram to back out of South Africa. He was a rich kid with family money! The rest of us Byrds had to go to South Africa or starve."
right - on many levels he was a poser - he could AFFORD to look and act the part - plus, he screwed over so many bandmates, was EXTREMELY unprofessional on many levels - yet he gets a pass because "hey man, without, gram - no eagles - no wild horses , no - " BS
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: March 11, 2012 20:39
Jagger was fearful for Keith and for the band. Almost everyone who cared about Keith was fearful.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
proudmary
()
Date: March 11, 2012 20:45
Quote
stonesrule
Jagger was fearful for Keith and for the band. Almost everyone who cared about Keith was fearful.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
Oh, tell us more! Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Fuman2
()
Date: March 11, 2012 20:52
As with any music, the more you listen the more it will sink in. Gram wrote some very nice songs, but it took me a while to appreciate them.
Heroin might have been a common point with Keith, but I would say Gram's knowledge of country music was the main bond between the two.
Although I am a fan of Gram's music these days, I agree, his status is overrated.
Heroin might have been a common point with Keith, but I would say Gram's knowledge of country music was the main bond between the two.
Although I am a fan of Gram's music these days, I agree, his status is overrated.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:00
Quote
hbwriterQuote
Title5Take1
I don't know his music enough to judge it, but did change my attitude a bit about his bailing on the Byrds. I'd read more than once he was to go to South Africa with the Byrds, and then Keith told him, "South Africa is totally segregated. Worse than Alabama." So, in moral protest, Parsons declined to go to South Africa. I thought, How noble. But then I recently read another member of the Byrds say, "It was easy for Gram to back out of South Africa. He was a rich kid with family money! The rest of us Byrds had to go to South Africa or starve."
right - on many levels he was a poser - he could AFFORD to look and act the part - plus, he screwed over so many bandmates, was EXTREMELY unprofessional on many levels - yet he gets a pass because "hey man, without, gram - no eagles - no wild horses , no - " BS
He gets a pass because he died young and attractive. Between that and Keith's retroactive tales about him, a mythology was created. He wrote a few really good songs but I personally cannot get through an entire Gram Parsons album.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
tomk
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:05
Quote
hbwriterQuote
Title5Take1
I don't know his music enough to judge it, but did change my attitude a bit about his bailing on the Byrds. I'd read more than once he was to go to South Africa with the Byrds, and then Keith told him, "South Africa is totally segregated. Worse than Alabama." So, in moral protest, Parsons declined to go to South Africa. I thought, How noble. But then I recently read another member of the Byrds say, "It was easy for Gram to back out of South Africa. He was a rich kid with family money! The rest of us Byrds had to go to South Africa or starve."
right - on many levels he was a poser - he could AFFORD to look and act the part - plus, he screwed over so many bandmates, was EXTREMELY unprofessional on many levels - yet he gets a pass because "hey man, without, gram - no eagles - no wild horses , no - " BS
I agree, HB, and I'm a fan of Parsons. I used to play some of those Gram-fests down in Joshua Tree (they still have them there), and while fun at first, the last few were kinda silly due to the fan worship, like he put the moon in the sky.
There were others that did the country-rock hybrid so much better, and at around the same time: Nesmith, Gene Clark, the Dillards, Hillman's tunes on Younger Than Yesterday, Rick Nelson, among others. I admit that I have a bias towards Nesmith, but I'll take his Monkee tunes, the Nashville session from 1868, and his first 3 First National Band records over Gram's solo stuff.
That being said, I do think the first Burrito's record, The Gilded Palace Of Sin, is an absolutely brilliant record. Truly original.
BTW, there's a great book about the Burritos called Hot Burritos that is worth searching out, written with Chris Hillman. Hillman's pretty hard on Gram and on himself. A good read.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
mickschix
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:22
I agree, Chris. I bought Gram's anthology and it STINKS, to put it mildly...awful voice, just plain garbage. I believe he was a user that Keith, in his drug addicted state, let hang on and mooch off the band...a real wanna be. I was annoyed at myself for buying into the crap and buying the cd. Total waste.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:28
Quote
stonesrule
Jagger was fearful for Keith and for the band. Almost everyone who cared about Keith was fearful.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
Damn stonesrule.....
You know we'll never leave you alone now ......right?
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:38
Emmylou Harris has some decent perspective on Gram's career. I believe she thought his best work was just starting as a solo artist.
Sin City is an absolute classic.
We'll never know if Gram was gonna be more than the first Kid Rock.
Sin City is an absolute classic.
We'll never know if Gram was gonna be more than the first Kid Rock.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
NICOS
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:43
I never checked out his complete repertoire, but think he did some great tunes.............
__________________________
__________________________
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
shawnriffhard1
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:55
Quote
mickschix
I agree, Chris. I bought Gram's anthology and it STINKS, to put it mildly...awful voice, just plain garbage. I believe he was a user that Keith, in his drug addicted state, let hang on and mooch off the band...a real wanna be. I was annoyed at myself for buying into the crap and buying the cd. Total waste.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. While some absolutely valid points are being made regarding his over-hyped myth, I really think a lot of his tunes are effin' fantastic. I would have probably never found out about this kind of music anywhere else. He has provided me with countless hours of enjoyment. I'm grooving on "We'll Sweep Out the Ashes in the Morning" right now. Yeah, "Still Feeling Blue" just came on. Pure excellence.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
hbwriter
()
Date: March 11, 2012 21:58
Quote
stonesrule
Jagger was fearful for Keith and for the band. Almost everyone who cared about Keith was fearful.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
well, uh, yeah, this is sorta cool to know
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:02
Quote
stonesrule
Jagger was fearful for Keith and for the band. Almost everyone who cared about Keith was fearful.
Music is one thing. The big bond for Keith and Gram was H.
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971. Couldn't wait to leave. Keith was a mess and poor little Marlon was stuck in the middle. I knew Gram from LA. Never wanted to be around him.
The next time I saw him he was coming up from the terrace of the villa with its magnificent view of the Mediterranean and slowly moving into the house. Gram and his long blonde hair and pasty face looked like the angel of death. A terrible image that haunted me for a long time.
Interesting story, stonesrule....but "Gram and his long blond hair and pasty face"
--------Gram Parsons had dark brown hair, not blonde. Perhaps you're mistaking him for, maybe, Mick Taylor?
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Honestman
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:13
Quote
hbwriter
...In my opinion at least - I'll say up front I find Gram Parsons to be one of the most over rated - if not THE most over rated musician in history...
Strange I got the same thoughts for Michael Jackson
HMN
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
rollmops
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:13
I love Gram Parson's music a lot. The GP and Grievous Angel are amazing records if one loves good country music and rock and roll, I believe. Keith has to this day repeatedly say good things about gram Parsons; he doesn't need to say anything if he doesn't believe it. Now people can say whatever they want if they are not touch my Gram's music but Gram's legacy among lot of musicians is well appraciated. They are lot of people who don't care about the stones and probably have shitty things to say about them; that's fine too. When an artist is put on a piedestal the person become a focus for the admirers but also a target for the detractors. That is the nature of the game of fame.I'm listening to Parson's "She" right now and it is a great song.
Rock and Roll,
Mops
Rock and Roll,
Mops
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:33
Maybe Gram just happened to be in the right place at the right time to influence Keith, who always had a bent toward country western music. TOMK is right in pointing out that there were others, like Nesmith & Ricky Nelson, that had gone in that same general direction Gram went. But of course none of those people found themselves in Keith Richard's orbit. I think Gram was a muse to Keith. But to hang close with Keith at that time probably required you shoot smack with him. And when Gram lost his soul he was dismissed. I don't think Gram is overrated. He might be over idolized. He did influence a lot of people and wrote some good music. He had the ears of Keith Richards, which expressed itself in some lovely ways on some music we cherish. He seems like a talented, mixed up guy who tried a little too hard. Think the Stones haven't seen a few of those?
Re: She
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:35
Quote
rollmops
I'm listening to Parson's "She" right now and it is a great song.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:41
hbwriter, quite a thesis! Very compelling --and it is harsh, and you know it because you're a good writer and when you get a bee in your bonnet you let it be known 
Be that as it may, with all due respect, I must part ways with you here. Everything from Gram Parson's legacy, his talent, and his impact on popular music, to his relationship with the Stones.
I wish I had time to go through all the points here, and maybe I will in a couple weeks when deadlines are passed, but for now just want to clock in that from all accounts (altho perhaps not Mick's) Keith and Gram were soul bros. They genuinely liked each other and respected each others' musicality and musical knowledge greatly. Sure, they used heroin. But really, what of it? It's not like street junkies who band together from necessity in a harsh cruel world of straights and junkies. Many people in that orbit used heroin. And, yeah, the 2 of them bonded additionally over heroin (using, kicking), but the crux of their relationship was musical and personal. I hope to own this photo one day
The truth is Gram and Keith bonded musically, and spent a lot of time picking each others' brains, playing, singing, experimenting, testing stuff out, talking...and it does not seem like much of a stretch at all that Mick would be not entirely happy about that.
Now, sort of a compromise position on the Mick-was-a-jealous-bitch/Gram-was-a-useless-junkie-sycophant polarity---a possibility is that Mick and Keith were drifting apart by the time they ended up in the South of France for many reasons. Keith was using a lot of heroin, and it was harder to get and keep him focused in the way Mick would certainly want him to, to keep together a functioning, rehearsing, recording band. And Mick had his eye on marriage, was getting more jet-setty, and they were basically drifting apart.
For someone in Mick's position, the presence of a new friend, with whom Keith did heroin and would bond---just the two of them--for many hours at a time on music, could definitely seem to be The Problem. The way when a 3rd party appears in an intimate relationship, the tendency is to blame it all on that person. When clearly, there's shit going south in the relationship anyway, so profound that this other person can make such in-roads, and "break things up." Furthermore, it's not unlike watching your kid getting lost to drugs...of course you're going to blame the kid's friends--those bad influences! and massively resent those kids. It seems to me that Mick resented Gram in all of those ways.
It's no right or wrong. It's a convergence of a lot of conditions and circumstances.
As to style--of course Gram picked up some fashion stuff from Mick. And he did from Keith too. And vice versa. The Stones picked up fashion bits from Gram Parsons. One of my very best friends went to prep school and Harvard with Gram, and said Gram always was a fashion-forward guy. Even in the early '60s. At prep school (which had been a military school but was becoming more of a traditional prep) everyone had to have their hair cut short, except Gram, who they let his hair come down over his ears (gasp!). Gram was in bands then, and even as a teenager was doing super interesting things with combining rock n roll with old country, even then.
As for Chris Hillman. I won't be unkind here. And certainly it would have been annoying as fock to have Gram be bored with what they were playing when having the chance to hang out with Keith and the Stones instead. But as many strengths and certainly positive attributes as Chris Hillman might have, and have had at the time, he wasn't the most hip guy to hang out with, from what I understand. None of the Stones were particularly keen on making him part of their party circle. Why wouldn't Chris be resentful of Gram's flagging enthusiasm and preference to hang out with Keith? He should have been. Similarly to Mick's frustration with Keith's preoccupation with hanging/bonding with Gram.
So much more one could say...maybe someday we'll write a neat dual side by side article on the topic!
my best-
swiss
Be that as it may, with all due respect, I must part ways with you here. Everything from Gram Parson's legacy, his talent, and his impact on popular music, to his relationship with the Stones.
I wish I had time to go through all the points here, and maybe I will in a couple weeks when deadlines are passed, but for now just want to clock in that from all accounts (altho perhaps not Mick's) Keith and Gram were soul bros. They genuinely liked each other and respected each others' musicality and musical knowledge greatly. Sure, they used heroin. But really, what of it? It's not like street junkies who band together from necessity in a harsh cruel world of straights and junkies. Many people in that orbit used heroin. And, yeah, the 2 of them bonded additionally over heroin (using, kicking), but the crux of their relationship was musical and personal. I hope to own this photo one day
The truth is Gram and Keith bonded musically, and spent a lot of time picking each others' brains, playing, singing, experimenting, testing stuff out, talking...and it does not seem like much of a stretch at all that Mick would be not entirely happy about that.
Now, sort of a compromise position on the Mick-was-a-jealous-bitch/Gram-was-a-useless-junkie-sycophant polarity---a possibility is that Mick and Keith were drifting apart by the time they ended up in the South of France for many reasons. Keith was using a lot of heroin, and it was harder to get and keep him focused in the way Mick would certainly want him to, to keep together a functioning, rehearsing, recording band. And Mick had his eye on marriage, was getting more jet-setty, and they were basically drifting apart.
For someone in Mick's position, the presence of a new friend, with whom Keith did heroin and would bond---just the two of them--for many hours at a time on music, could definitely seem to be The Problem. The way when a 3rd party appears in an intimate relationship, the tendency is to blame it all on that person. When clearly, there's shit going south in the relationship anyway, so profound that this other person can make such in-roads, and "break things up." Furthermore, it's not unlike watching your kid getting lost to drugs...of course you're going to blame the kid's friends--those bad influences! and massively resent those kids. It seems to me that Mick resented Gram in all of those ways.
It's no right or wrong. It's a convergence of a lot of conditions and circumstances.
As to style--of course Gram picked up some fashion stuff from Mick. And he did from Keith too. And vice versa. The Stones picked up fashion bits from Gram Parsons. One of my very best friends went to prep school and Harvard with Gram, and said Gram always was a fashion-forward guy. Even in the early '60s. At prep school (which had been a military school but was becoming more of a traditional prep) everyone had to have their hair cut short, except Gram, who they let his hair come down over his ears (gasp!). Gram was in bands then, and even as a teenager was doing super interesting things with combining rock n roll with old country, even then.
As for Chris Hillman. I won't be unkind here. And certainly it would have been annoying as fock to have Gram be bored with what they were playing when having the chance to hang out with Keith and the Stones instead. But as many strengths and certainly positive attributes as Chris Hillman might have, and have had at the time, he wasn't the most hip guy to hang out with, from what I understand. None of the Stones were particularly keen on making him part of their party circle. Why wouldn't Chris be resentful of Gram's flagging enthusiasm and preference to hang out with Keith? He should have been. Similarly to Mick's frustration with Keith's preoccupation with hanging/bonding with Gram.
So much more one could say...maybe someday we'll write a neat dual side by side article on the topic!
my best-
swiss
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:44
Quote
24FPS
Maybe Gram just happened to be in the right place at the right time to influence Keith, who always had a bent toward country western music. TOMK is right in pointing out that there were others, like Nesmith & Ricky Nelson, that had gone in that same general direction Gram went. But of course none of those people found themselves in Keith Richard's orbit. I think Gram was a muse to Keith. But to hang close with Keith at that time probably required you shoot smack with him. And when Gram lost his soul he was dismissed. I don't think Gram is overrated. He might be over idolized. He did influence a lot of people and wrote some good music. He had the ears of Keith Richards, which expressed itself in some lovely ways on some music we cherish. He seems like a talented, mixed up guy who tried a little too hard. Think the Stones haven't seen a few of those?
wow, 24FPS -- brilliantly and succinctly put -- wonderful post!
- swiss
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Bliss
()
Date: March 11, 2012 23:01
Quote
stonesrule
I've never said this before in these endless IORR threads. And I probably will regret it.
I was at Nellcote in 1971.
Actually, Sharon, you've mentioned it a couple of times in the last couple months.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: March 11, 2012 23:09
You're killin' me hbwriter. Gram probably had what alot of people who play music with mates recognize, and not many others. He had the music in his bones 24 hrs a day and , in person, watching him play he could grab your tired heart strings and shake the s h i t out of them.
He was one of the guys you never could capture with records and pictures and your unfavorable assesment of him is such a small part of the picture that it undermines the truth of who Gram Parsons was.
I suggest you do a bit more research, talk to the people who sat in front of his ass and SAW the magic pour from his heart. I did. Just my two bits. ..excellent post by swiss above worth reading twice. nice. peace
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-11 23:12 by Naturalust.
He was one of the guys you never could capture with records and pictures and your unfavorable assesment of him is such a small part of the picture that it undermines the truth of who Gram Parsons was.
I suggest you do a bit more research, talk to the people who sat in front of his ass and SAW the magic pour from his heart. I did. Just my two bits. ..excellent post by swiss above worth reading twice. nice. peace
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-11 23:12 by Naturalust.
Re: Keith? No - Gram was obsessed with Mick
Posted by:
gaigai
()
Date: March 11, 2012 23:32
Hey! This guy wrote Wild Horses. Isn't that enough?
(The Burrito-version was released in 1970, with the same lyrics and chords as the one we all love the most one year later.)
(The Burrito-version was released in 1970, with the same lyrics and chords as the one we all love the most one year later.)
Re: The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: March 11, 2012 23:39
ffs gaigai - the Stones wrote and recorded Wild Horses in 1969, with no Gram in sight.
Gram asked their permission to release his cover of it before Sticky Fingers came out.
Gram asked their permission to release his cover of it before Sticky Fingers came out.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Online Users
a bigger nut , benstones , chrisvw , doubledoor , EJM , monkeymantoo , Nosnibourbos , onestep , Quique-stone , TumblinDice76
Guests:
2254
Record Number of Users:
206
on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests:
9627
on January 2, 2024 23:10