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filstan
Nicky was brilliant, but to say that session guys who helped build songs should receive writers credit is ludicrous. It is up to the band and more specifically the writers. The Stones had Nanker/Phelge for years. What about the Beatles? What about the Kinks as English examples. They had some session guys in as well. Nicky played with lots of bands and his contributions were huge, but he just helpedz build the songs musically not lyrically. The guy was a brilliant player and Stones albums and tours were greatly enhanced by his contribution which is why they invited him to play for so long. Stu and Nicky were always my guys with Mac a close third. Best example of Nicky helping build a song is SFTD. His keyboard riff is picked up by Keith who eventually uses it in the final cut and takes it a step further on live versions. Keith was the master at taking a simple riff and turning into a Stones thing. Chuck Berry was the same way. Take a sound and give it a different twist. I think we call that progression.

Ok, and keeping away The Stones, what's your oppinion on "A whiter shade of pale" (written by Gary Brooker and Keith Reid)? For what do you remember this song? Por the "skipped the light fandango" line, for the descending C-major chords or for the AMAZING Hammond tune (BTW, when Nicky was asked to choose his favourite 10 songs, A whiter shade of pale was one of the selected)? If you don't konw the story, read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Whiter_Shade_of_Pale#Authorship_lawsuit

And it's not about Nicky being put as co-writter, we don't want "We love you (Hopkins-Jagger-Richards)" stuff, but at least, the guy must be recognized! Do you remember the Angie clip? Mick Taylor playing piano? That was such a bad thing to Nicky!

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"I'm gonna walk... before they make me run"

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They could have given 1 writing credit , Angie ?

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GOO
check out the jerry garcia band with nicky on piano....great stuff, let it rock....cool 15 minute version of lets spend the night together

Saw Nicky with the JGB a couple times. Very cool!

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GOO
just read..and on piano NICKY HOPKINS.......awesome book

Very good read about a thin man who's contributed so much to many a Stones' song.

Thanks Julian Dawson for this appreciation of a great musician.

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GOO
They could have given 1 writing credit , Angie ?

As Nicky didn't write it, no.

Mathijs

I liked the book as well and of course I love his playing. But don't forget that the book had be written from Hopkins'(and his people) point of view.
He always wanted to play with the boys again, even wanted to be a permanent member. So all can't have been too bad.

If chuck leavel can get credit for back to zero you would think they would throw Nicky a bone, she's a rainbow????

Jim Gordan wrote the coda to Layla, not Bobby Whitlock.

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GOO
If chuck leavel can get credit for back to zero you would think they would throw Nicky a bone, she's a rainbow????

It's pure speculation. We don't know Nicky's, nor Chuck's input. As I understand, Chuck came with a song to the DW-sessions, Nicky didn't.

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GOO
If chuck leavel can get credit for back to zero you would think they would throw Nicky a bone, she's a rainbow????

Chuck got a credit as he wrote the middle section ('My whole life is hanging on a thread'). Nicky didn't get credit for She's A Rainbow as he didn't wrote it. On the two outtakes you can clearly hear Jagger giving Nicky directions for what to play, including the (fantastic) piano intro line.

Mathijs

What Nicky did live in 1972 is probably the best effort by any sidekick in rock history. Gimme Shelter, JJF, YCAGWYW anything really - he's a butterfly that escaped from one of those Coors cans.

So nagger wrote the opening piano line to she's a rainbow?

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GOO
So nagger wrote the opening piano line to she's a rainbow?

At least he is singing it note for note for Nicky to play it correctly. Could be Jagger, could be Richards.

Mathijs

Those takes don't sound like take 1 or 2

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GOO
Those takes don't sound like take 1 or 2

So?

Mathijs

I think the references to The Stones recording jam sessions and stealing ideas might be more to do with something Ron Wood referred to in an interview some time in the early 90s (I think), where he said that 'Miss You' was basically Billy Preston's idea, and Jagger never gave him credit for it, resulting (in Ron's words) in Billy Preston saying '@#$%& You The Rolling Stones' and never working with them again..
Also there were those rumours that always circulated about Keith copying a Ry Cooder guitar part note-for-note on 'Honky Tonk Women'. I guess it's plausible; the guitar riffs are a little different than most of what Keith was coming up with at the time.. but as several people have stated already in this thread, the lyrics and melody had already been written by the time the song was recorded, so there's no case for a songwriting credit.
And as beautiful as Nicky Hopkins'parts on 'Loving Cup' 'SFTD' and 'Shine A Light' are, they are 'arrangement', not 'songwriting' contributions..

Dave

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rangerdave
I think the references to The Stones recording jam sessions and stealing ideas might be more to do with something Ron Wood referred to in an interview some time in the early 90s (I think), where he said that 'Miss You' was basically Billy Preston's idea, and Jagger never gave him credit for it, resulting (in Ron's words) in Billy Preston saying '@#$%& You The Rolling Stones' and never working with them again..
Also there were those rumours that always circulated about Keith copying a Ry Cooder guitar part note-for-note on 'Honky Tonk Women'. I guess it's plausible; the guitar riffs are a little different than most of what Keith was coming up with at the time.. but as several people have stated already in this thread, the lyrics and melody had already been written by the time the song was recorded, so there's no case for a songwriting credit.
And as beautiful as Nicky Hopkins'parts on 'Loving Cup' 'SFTD' and 'Shine A Light' are, they are 'arrangement', not 'songwriting' contributions..

Dave

Billy Preston plays on Shine a light, not Nicky. And I repeat... remember A whiter shade of pale, Matthew Fisher "didn't wrote the song", and his organ tune is an "arrangement"? But he gone to justice to claim his rights as songwriter, for the organ part is "the song"!!

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rangerdave
I think the references to The Stones recording jam sessions and stealing ideas might be more to do with something Ron Wood referred to in an interview some time in the early 90s (I think), where he said that 'Miss You' was basically Billy Preston's idea, and Jagger never gave him credit for it, resulting (in Ron's words) in Billy Preston saying '@#$%& You The Rolling Stones' and never working with them again..
Also there were those rumours that always circulated about Keith copying a Ry Cooder guitar part note-for-note on 'Honky Tonk Women'. I guess it's plausible; the guitar riffs are a little different than most of what Keith was coming up with at the time.. but as several people have stated already in this thread, the lyrics and melody had already been written by the time the song was recorded, so there's no case for a songwriting credit.
And as beautiful as Nicky Hopkins'parts on 'Loving Cup' 'SFTD' and 'Shine A Light' are, they are 'arrangement', not 'songwriting' contributions..

Dave

I agree on your arranging-comment.

Song writing should be treated more as a profession. Say, if you shoot a picture, you'll get the credits - not the guy that photoshopped it to be better suited for print in magazines etc.

Regarding Billy Preston and Miss You. He was playing the drum beat, and presented an idea he had for Mick, right? It's a long way from there and to the final product...

Preston worked with Mick again in the early 90s, so I guess he wasn't that angry. If he indeed should be angry, it should be because of Melody, which is a blueprint of one of Preston's songs.

The HTW-thing would be easy to dismiss, because we have the bootleg of the embryo of HTW, recorded prior to Cooder's first encounter with the Stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-15 15:46 by DandelionPowderman.

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rangerdave
I think the references to The Stones recording jam sessions and stealing ideas might be more to do with something Ron Wood referred to in an interview some time in the early 90s (I think), where he said that 'Miss You' was basically Billy Preston's idea, and Jagger never gave him credit for it, resulting (in Ron's words) in Billy Preston saying '@#$%& You The Rolling Stones' and never working with them again..
Also there were those rumours that always circulated about Keith copying a Ry Cooder guitar part note-for-note on 'Honky Tonk Women'. I guess it's plausible; the guitar riffs are a little different than most of what Keith was coming up with at the time.. but as several people have stated already in this thread, the lyrics and melody had already been written by the time the song was recorded, so there's no case for a songwriting credit.
And as beautiful as Nicky Hopkins'parts on 'Loving Cup' 'SFTD' and 'Shine A Light' are, they are 'arrangement', not 'songwriting' contributions..

Dave

Dave - Did the Stones give "Arrangement" payments to anyone? Nicky, Billy Preston or John Paul Jones?


The 60's group The Animals had an interesting go around with arrangements with the song "The House Of The Rising Sun":

Recorded in just one take on 18 May 1964, it started with a famous electric guitar A minor chord arpeggio by Hilton Valentine. The performance took off with Eric Burdon's lead vocal, which has been variously described as "howling", "soulful", and "deep and gravelly as the north-east English coal town of Newcastle that spawned him." Finally, Alan Price's pulsating organ part (played on a Vox Continental) completed the sound.

The arranging credit went only to Alan Price. According to Eric Burdon, this was simply because there was insufficient room to name all five band members on the record label, and Alan Price's name was first alphabetically. However, this meant that only Price received songwriter's royalties for the hit, a fact that has caused bitterness ever since, especially with Valentine.

Not sure how it works, but you can take a song not written by you and put another arrangement on it and receive royalties. (Jimmy Page comes to mind).

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Mathijs

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GOO
Those takes don't sound like take 1 or 2

So?

Mathijs

Then it would make sense

Whatever

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DandelionPowderman

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GOO
If chuck leavel can get credit for back to zero you would think they would throw Nicky a bone, she's a rainbow????

It's pure speculation. We don't know Nicky's, nor Chuck's input. As I understand, Chuck came with a song to the DW-sessions, Nicky didn't.

Nicky did show beautiful patience in recording "Waiting For The Band To Come". That's sorta a Stones session.

Did Chuck bring Back To Zero to DW?

A song is the melody and the lyrics. A piano part does not make a song, take the fantastic piano out of Loving Cup, the song is still there. If that warrants a songwriting credit then why not give credit to Bill because of his bass on Under My Thumb? Or Charlie for his playing on Get Off My Cloud? And Nicky is already very recognized, at least by Stones fans, don't expect other people to know the guy, most people don't even know about Brian Jones.

So Steve jordon wrote almost heard you sigh? The drum line?

Pierre de Beauport wrote "Thief in the Night" ?
The point I'm trying to make is Nicky contributed more to the sound than leavell, jordon, Beauport combined.
I find it sad they never threw him a bone, one song credit might have been enough to live off.....

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DandelionPowderman


The HTW-thing would be easy to dismiss, because we have the bootleg of the embryo of HTW, recorded prior to Cooder's first encounter with the Stones.

No we dont. The licks are pure Ry (Memo, Downtown Suzie). Ry Cooder had a lot more influence on Keith 1968-1969 than the licks on HTW. Rambler, Live with me, Monkey man and basically the electric riff style adopted by Keith on the non-Chuck like songs. Im not saying Ry Cooder wrote these songs - he didnt - but Keith recorded Ry and used him.

Keith: I took Ry Cooder for everything I could get

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stones78
A song is the melody and the lyrics. A piano part does not make a song, take the fantastic piano out of Loving Cup, the song is still there. If that warrants a songwriting credit then why not give credit to Bill because of his bass on Under My Thumb? Or Charlie for his playing on Get Off My Cloud? And Nicky is already very recognized, at least by Stones fans, don't expect other people to know the guy, most people don't even know about Brian Jones.

It seems nobody read me... "A piano part does not make a song"... for 30 years "a hammond organ part does not make a song too" for Gary Brooker and Keith Reid. But Matthew Fisher organ is as prominent as the lyrics and the chords.





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GOO
So Steve jordon wrote almost heard you sigh? The drum line?

Steve plays many different instruments. He is credited on guitar on several Winos-cuts.

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Redhotcarpet

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DandelionPowderman


The HTW-thing would be easy to dismiss, because we have the bootleg of the embryo of HTW, recorded prior to Cooder's first encounter with the Stones.

No we dont. The licks are pure Ry (Memo, Downtown Suzie). Ry Cooder had a lot more influence on Keith 1968-1969 than the licks on HTW. Rambler, Live with me, Monkey man and basically the electric riff style adopted by Keith on the non-Chuck like songs. Im not saying Ry Cooder wrote these songs - he didnt - but Keith recorded Ry and used him.

Keith: I took Ry Cooder for everything I could get

Used him is a bit of a stretch, but of course he was inspired by him.

The embryo of the HTW-riff was recorded before Ry played with the Stones.

Rambler, Monkey Man and Live With Me have nothing to do with Ry's playing style, which is very much slide-oriented. I agree on HTW sounding like a blueprint of Ry's stuff (at least a very few of the licks from Downtown Suzie), though.

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Munichhilton

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DandelionPowderman

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GOO
If chuck leavel can get credit for back to zero you would think they would throw Nicky a bone, she's a rainbow????

It's pure speculation. We don't know Nicky's, nor Chuck's input. As I understand, Chuck came with a song to the DW-sessions, Nicky didn't.

Nicky did show beautiful patience in recording "Waiting For The Band To Come". That's sorta a Stones session.

Did Chuck bring Back To Zero to DW?

I thought he did, but as it turned out he wrote the bridge - actually the coolest part of the song, imo.