Tell Me :
Talk
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
I think our heroes were in fact previously defeated...exhibit A, Dirty Work, the 'Keith album'.
Yep, I saw it now on timeisonourside. I've also seen Keith tell about how he developed the chord change into the riff.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 16:39 by DandelionPowderman.
There you go. This thread can be closed.
+1
I see the pattern too Freebird. Good analysis. peace.
Is all of this happening in "Htrae"....?
Mick wrote every word except the title..........
I had the whole chord sequence down maybe a year ago with just the title Angie. It could have been Randy or Mangy or anything, you know, but Mick just picked up on the title and wrote a song around it. He added the strings - all the strings on the album are his idea. I don't know who chose it as a single. I think somebody said that it would make a change and that it would get a heavy reaction on AM stations. I'm really not interested in picking singles.
- Keith Richards, 1973
I've said about a hundred million times that it wasn't (about Angela Bowie)... I don't think I had even met Angela Bowie when I wrote the rest of the lyrics.
- Mick Jagger, 2002
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 23:09 by stupidguy2.
I'm no guitar wizard, but it's amazing what going to an open tuning and removing that 'annoying' top string does.
It's like anything you play becomes a stones song.
That is truly Keith's gift to the stones, making even MJ a good guitar player.
Have you seen the MSG-video when Mick plays what he wrote?
Dandelion, are you calling Mick a liar?
If anyone is going to indulge in hyperbolic claims- that would be Mr. Richards.
Should Jagger have played all the parts? Why is it so hard to imagine that Jagger can write a song without Keith?
Open chords are blues-based...Keith didn't invent it and Jagger was even more of a blues purist than Keith. (suck on that Keefers!)
But its true that Keith showed Mick how to play....
Open chords are easy, kind of the lazy way to play - but its what you do with them that counts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-03 00:02 by stupidguy2.
Don't think I was implying Keith invented it...but as you say it is what you do with it that counts. Also, by introducing it to the band what they did with it was cement THE classic stones sound.
I'm not calling Mick a liar, but I believed Keith developed the riff. Mick said he played A riff, I'd say Keith adjusted it a bit - to the fantastic riff that ended up on the album.
Hmmm, a couple of bagels from Keith.........
Yeah, mickschix truth like this is self-evident.As much as I love Keiths personality, Mick really puts the effort into the whole process of songwriting. He seems to take it a bit more seriously than Keith who tends to wait for divine intervention and rarely brings a beautifully complete song to the table, as far as I can tell. With a couple of exceptions like Rocks Off and Happy I'm all for Mick's touch on the tunes. I do like it when Keiths backup vocals are mixed up a bit higher and not blown over by Mick overdubs. They have a nice tone when they are are balanced more equally, to my ears anyway. peace.
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 2, 2011 12:04
Quote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
FreeBird
()
Date: November 2, 2011 13:31
Mick says he wrote Brown Sugar's riff and I believe him. If you believe Keith that's your choice, but I see a clear pattern of Keith exaggerating his own contributions and Mick downplaying his, so that's double the reason to believe Mick when he does make a claim like this.Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 2, 2011 15:07
Quote
doubledoor
I don't think I could give an example of Keith"s lyrics being timeless. I also completely agree that Sympathy has historical references and has timeless lyrics, Maybe one of their best (we should start a new thread) But I wasn't commenting on the lyrics, I was thinking about the whole song. You know, drums..guitars..bass..backup singers..piano..singer... all blending together. You know, the complete sound of the song to the ear. Unless the lyrics are especially awfull, or especially brilliant (like Dylan), I rank them below all those other aspects. Boom Boom Boom by John Lee Hooker has the simplest of lyrics, but the way he sounds singing it is the brilliance. How, not what, he sings matters more. Same goes for Mick, who I love, in most songs it's not brilliant lyrics that make him, it is the way he delivers them. His timing, delivery, attitude and kick-ass grooves backing him up . Mick solo lacks those kick ass riffs and grooves that seem to flow out of Keith. We are so used to hearing him with them that he sounds weaker without em. Despite the rest of his talents. Keith on the other hand can come much closer to Mick in writing and singing lyrics than Mick can writing and playing riffs. So Keith Solo sounds much more like the Rolling Stones (which is what we all want all the time) than Mick does solo. If lyrics and lead singers are the litmus test, then yeah, Mick Jagger is better than Keith. But if all those instruments making noise in background also matter to you, you gotta go with Keith. I cheer my hardest for both of them, but Keith has never let me down, he is 2 for 2. I liked She's the Boss when it came out, same with Wandering Spirit, but they haven't faced the test of time that well. Primitive Cool, and Goddess, were misses, and that is unacceptable from our previously undefeated heroes.
I think our heroes were in fact previously defeated...exhibit A, Dirty Work, the 'Keith album'.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: November 2, 2011 15:59
Steve Lillywhite's 80's production also helped cheapen the Dirty Work sessions.
To be fair only Micks contributions to Dirty Work stunk [writer's opinions]:
MICK's TRACKS:
Hold Back [All Mick]
Back To Zero [Too Bad Even For STB]
Winning Ugly [Bridge is the only thing worth while]
KEITH TRACKS:
One Hit [M/K] collaborative rock
Fight [Keith pissed]
Too Rude [perfect]
Dirty Work [M/K] collaborative angry rock
Had It With You [R/K] ? Good song though
Sleep Tonight [Perfect]
Harlem Shuffle [cover]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 15:59 by Munichhilton.
To be fair only Micks contributions to Dirty Work stunk [writer's opinions]:
MICK's TRACKS:
Hold Back [All Mick]
Back To Zero [Too Bad Even For STB]
Winning Ugly [Bridge is the only thing worth while]
KEITH TRACKS:
One Hit [M/K] collaborative rock
Fight [Keith pissed]
Too Rude [perfect]
Dirty Work [M/K] collaborative angry rock
Had It With You [R/K] ? Good song though
Sleep Tonight [Perfect]
Harlem Shuffle [cover]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 15:59 by Munichhilton.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 2, 2011 16:29
Quote
FreeBirdMick says he wrote Brown Sugar's riff and I believe him. If you believe Keith that's your choice, but I see a clear pattern of Keith exaggerating his own contributions and Mick downplaying his, so that's double the reason to believe Mick when he does make a claim like this.Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
Yep, I saw it now on timeisonourside. I've also seen Keith tell about how he developed the chord change into the riff.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 16:39 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: November 2, 2011 16:34
The total is more than the sum of the parts.
They both bring a lot to the table.
They both bring a lot to the table.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
DragonSky
()
Date: November 2, 2011 16:37
Mick wrote it while filming something in Australia.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: November 2, 2011 16:57
Quote
Elmo Lewis
The total is more than the sum of the parts.
There you go. This thread can be closed.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: November 2, 2011 17:29
Quote
KoenQuote
Elmo Lewis
The total is more than the sum of the parts.
There you go. This thread can be closed.
+1
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: November 2, 2011 18:37
Quote
FreeBird
I see a clear pattern of Keith exaggerating his own contributions and Mick downplaying his, .
I see the pattern too Freebird. Good analysis. peace.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
mickschix
()
Date: November 2, 2011 19:48
That's what I said, NATURALIST, and I believe that it's true!
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
6853
()
Date: November 2, 2011 22:28
very few of the stones songs are actual "melodies"; more pieces of uptempo blues (ie rock) put together, with a songline sung in a blues scale. Mick does all the lyrics, Keith prduces the adequate chord sequence for that piece of lyric,(or probably the other way a round.. not sure), mick puts the pieces together in a sequence, and then Keith writes some fine guitar riffs and licks that framework the whole piece. ... just my theory.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
wanderingspirit66
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:01
Quote
pmk251
Generally speaking and as far as I can tell, Keith is the more interesting songwriter. His songs have a subject. He often works around a central theme or metaphor. He likes to play with words. He shows a heart. He shows vulnerability. His songs can touch me. I do not think he throws around words and hopes they stick. Very often his two only songs are the only ones in the show that have any emotional impact for me. I wish he would write more.
Is all of this happening in "Htrae"....?
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
lucasd4
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:02
Quote
DandelionPowderman
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Mick wrote every word except the title..........
I had the whole chord sequence down maybe a year ago with just the title Angie. It could have been Randy or Mangy or anything, you know, but Mick just picked up on the title and wrote a song around it. He added the strings - all the strings on the album are his idea. I don't know who chose it as a single. I think somebody said that it would make a change and that it would get a heavy reaction on AM stations. I'm really not interested in picking singles.
- Keith Richards, 1973
I've said about a hundred million times that it wasn't (about Angela Bowie)... I don't think I had even met Angela Bowie when I wrote the rest of the lyrics.
- Mick Jagger, 2002
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:02
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 23:09 by stupidguy2.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
lucasd4
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:06
(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Mick Jagger, 1994
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-02 23:13 by lucasd4.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:12
Quote
stupidguy2Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
I'm no guitar wizard, but it's amazing what going to an open tuning and removing that 'annoying' top string does.
It's like anything you play becomes a stones song.
That is truly Keith's gift to the stones, making even MJ a good guitar player.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:26
Quote
stupidguy2Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
Have you seen the MSG-video when Mick plays what he wrote?
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: November 2, 2011 23:58
And what makes you think the song ended there? He was playing a sample of something he wrote....Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
stupidguy2Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
Have you seen the MSG-video when Mick plays what he wrote?
Dandelion, are you calling Mick a liar?
If anyone is going to indulge in hyperbolic claims- that would be Mr. Richards.
Should Jagger have played all the parts? Why is it so hard to imagine that Jagger can write a song without Keith?
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: November 3, 2011 00:01
Quote
treaclefingers
That is truly Keith's gift to the stones, making even MJ a good guitar player.
Open chords are blues-based...Keith didn't invent it and Jagger was even more of a blues purist than Keith. (suck on that Keefers!)
But its true that Keith showed Mick how to play....
Open chords are easy, kind of the lazy way to play - but its what you do with them that counts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-03 00:02 by stupidguy2.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: November 3, 2011 00:28
Keith's always been piggybacking on Mick. Jag's been writing the majority of the Stones output.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 3, 2011 01:12
Quote
stupidguy2Quote
treaclefingers
That is truly Keith's gift to the stones, making even MJ a good guitar player.
Open chords are blues-based...Keith didn't invent it and Jagger was even more of a blues purist than Keith. (suck on that Keefers!)
But its true that Keith showed Mick how to play....
Open chords are easy, kind of the lazy way to play - but its what you do with them that counts.
Don't think I was implying Keith invented it...but as you say it is what you do with it that counts. Also, by introducing it to the band what they did with it was cement THE classic stones sound.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Slimharpo
()
Date: November 3, 2011 05:05
Last I checked Keith wrote lyrics as well. More than just the Satisfaction type "I can't get no satisfaction and I try and I try.." Didn't he write most of the lyrics on "Gimme Shelter" "You Got the Silver" "Let it Bleed" "Connection" "Ruby Tuesday" "Happy" "Before They Make Me Run" "Flip the Switch" "Too Tight...." He writes lyrics, but not as much as Mick, likely because Mick usually rewrites the lyrics Keith writes.
If Mick wrote most of Satisfaction beyond lyrics he would have said so. Mick has often taken credit for songs he wrote music to like "yesterdays Papers." Mick has contradicted himself in the past as well. They revisit and rewrite music and words and things likely become more blury. That's why Keith writes in his book "It's not like you can say he wrote this or I wrote that." But generally in the 1960'a Keith wrote the music and Mick the words.
I also think you can't say the stones didn't write melody. You have nice examples "As Tears Go By" "Lady Jane" "Ruby Tuesday" "Angie." You also see that pop melody on Keith solo albums. But I think many people just want to hear a lot of Keith riffs. And that's the stones. Mick wrote Brown sugar, but it's Keith style. That's the problem with solo albums for Mick. Mick doesn't want to ape Keith anymore, he searching for his own musical identity. The problem is people don't like it much.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-03 05:09 by Slimharpo.
If Mick wrote most of Satisfaction beyond lyrics he would have said so. Mick has often taken credit for songs he wrote music to like "yesterdays Papers." Mick has contradicted himself in the past as well. They revisit and rewrite music and words and things likely become more blury. That's why Keith writes in his book "It's not like you can say he wrote this or I wrote that." But generally in the 1960'a Keith wrote the music and Mick the words.
I also think you can't say the stones didn't write melody. You have nice examples "As Tears Go By" "Lady Jane" "Ruby Tuesday" "Angie." You also see that pop melody on Keith solo albums. But I think many people just want to hear a lot of Keith riffs. And that's the stones. Mick wrote Brown sugar, but it's Keith style. That's the problem with solo albums for Mick. Mick doesn't want to ape Keith anymore, he searching for his own musical identity. The problem is people don't like it much.
Quote
6853
very few of the stones songs are actual "melodies"; more pieces of uptempo blues (ie rock) put together, with a songline sung in a blues scale. Mick does all the lyrics, Keith prduces the adequate chord sequence for that piece of lyric,(or probably the other way a round.. not sure), mick puts the pieces together in a sequence, and then Keith writes some fine guitar riffs and licks that framework the whole piece. ... just my theory.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-03 05:09 by Slimharpo.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 3, 2011 10:17
Quote
stupidguy2And what makes you think the song ended there? He was playing a sample of something he wrote....Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
stupidguy2Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
elunsi
mick wrote at least the lyrics for Angie, wich makes Mick and Keith co-writers for that song. And the Brown Sugar riff is Mick´s, that´s what he says.
Keith said he developed the riffs. Mick already had the chord changes.
And Mick didn't write the entire lyrics to Angie, but of course, he co-wrote it. But Keith wrote the music.
Jagger has also said that Brown Sugar was the first song he wrote in an open chord, a technique he got from Keith. This suggests that Mick created the basic riff structure, which is that augmentation you hear.... because once you play in open chord, that "riffing" is what makes it sound so loosey/goosey open and funky.....
The chord changes is the song.
I always thought of "Brown Sugar" as the first Stones song that defined that open chord groove that would become their definitive sound...
Funny that is was Mick who kicked it off.
Have you seen the MSG-video when Mick plays what he wrote?
Dandelion, are you calling Mick a liar?
If anyone is going to indulge in hyperbolic claims- that would be Mr. Richards.
Should Jagger have played all the parts? Why is it so hard to imagine that Jagger can write a song without Keith?
I'm not calling Mick a liar, but I believed Keith developed the riff. Mick said he played A riff, I'd say Keith adjusted it a bit - to the fantastic riff that ended up on the album.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
lapaz62
()
Date: November 6, 2011 00:03
Bitch is a Riff, Brown Sugar is an Intro, the same yet different.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
uhbuhgullayew
()
Date: November 6, 2011 00:16
Quote
jamesfdouglas
Solo tracks (i'm only counting from studio albums) crediting only Mick or Keith as the solo songwriter.
Mick - She's the Boss - 6
Mick - Primitive Cool - 7
Keith - Talk is Cheap - 0
Mick - Wandering Spirit - 8
Keith - Main Offender - 0
Mick - Goddess in the Doorway - 8
As for the Alfie songs I couldn't find the writing info. But Mick even had a solo credit on Superheavy.
It would be safe to say that Mick is the more complete songwriter between he and Keith. One has done even more writing for soundtracks and outside collaborations. One's never earned a solo credit in his life.
Hmmm, a couple of bagels from Keith.........
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: November 6, 2011 00:21
"irrestible for armchair rebels"
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
lapaz62
()
Date: November 6, 2011 03:14
Steve Jordan co-wrote with Richards and he's a drummer, whats up Charlie.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: November 6, 2011 04:01
Quote
mickschix
That's what I said, NATURALIST, and I believe that it's true!
Yeah, mickschix truth like this is self-evident.As much as I love Keiths personality, Mick really puts the effort into the whole process of songwriting. He seems to take it a bit more seriously than Keith who tends to wait for divine intervention and rarely brings a beautifully complete song to the table, as far as I can tell. With a couple of exceptions like Rocks Off and Happy I'm all for Mick's touch on the tunes. I do like it when Keiths backup vocals are mixed up a bit higher and not blown over by Mick overdubs. They have a nice tone when they are are balanced more equally, to my ears anyway. peace.
Re: Who is the better or complete songwritter in the Stones?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 6, 2011 04:24
I think you have a tough argument on who is the better songwriter.
As far as who is the more complete songwriter, it can be no contest, MJ all the way.
As far as who is the more complete songwriter, it can be no contest, MJ all the way.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Online Users
BeastyBurdeny , chrisvw , corstones , dandelion12 , DiegoGlimmerStones , EddieByword , frankotero , hockenheim95 , jstanek , kkhoranstoned , laertisflash , LSTNT , Milan , MingSubu , RaahenTiikeri , schwonek , steffialicia , stonemac , Tonstone , TumblinDice76
Guests:
1829
Record Number of Users:
206
on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests:
9627
on January 2, 2024 23:10