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Mathijs

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Sacke

Well, nowadays people dance on music based on a computerbeats (mechanical)...I agreed it can be funky, as is Charlie's drums circa 75/76, but 'swing' is something different Matthijs! Charlie doesn't swing because he does some fills now and then...

Take a drum computer. Do a 4 to the floor with the kick, and 16th pattern on the hi-hat. What do we have? Static '80's Kraftwerk. Take out the last beat of each bar from the hi-hat. What do we have?

Miss You by the Stones.

Mathijs

I took the computer/mechanical drumming as an example for the non-swinging Charlie. And then you take a discotune Miss You as an example? For me, The Stones are a Rock and Rollband. It's Jumping Jack Flash (or Brown Sugar, etc...) which lacks swing or groove...Charlie did a fine job on Miss You.

Let Elvin show all of you drum-lovers:





My drum-idol all categories...

2 1 2 0

.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-04 02:03 by Max'sKansasCity.

i find it interesting how Charlie never hits the hi-hat and snare at the same time. he has that awkward "lift up hi-hat hand" technique...

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Sacke

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Mathijs

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Sacke

Well, nowadays people dance on music based on a computerbeats (mechanical)...I agreed it can be funky, as is Charlie's drums circa 75/76, but 'swing' is something different Matthijs! Charlie doesn't swing because he does some fills now and then...

Take a drum computer. Do a 4 to the floor with the kick, and 16th pattern on the hi-hat. What do we have? Static '80's Kraftwerk. Take out the last beat of each bar from the hi-hat. What do we have?

Miss You by the Stones.

Mathijs

I took the computer/mechanical drumming as an example for the non-swinging Charlie. And then you take a discotune Miss You as an example? For me, The Stones are a Rock and Rollband. It's Jumping Jack Flash (or Brown Sugar, etc...) which lacks swing or groove...Charlie did a fine job on Miss You.

It's just an example of what happens with something as abstract as swing when you take out a high-hat beat in a bar. Something static suddenly gets a notion of swing. And this is exactly what Charlie does with pure R&R -by skipping beats he creates swing.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Sacke

Well, nowadays people dance on music based on a computerbeats (mechanical)...I agreed it can be funky, as is Charlie's drums circa 75/76, but 'swing' is something different Matthijs! Charlie doesn't swing because he does some fills now and then...

Take a drum computer. Do a 4 to the floor with the kick, and 16th pattern on the hi-hat. What do we have? Static '80's Kraftwerk. Take out the last beat of each bar from the hi-hat. What do we have?

Miss You by the Stones.

Mathijs

Nope, Charlie is playing quavers on the hi-hat basically -no semi quavers, unless you consider the "Miss You" beat as a 4/2 of course.

Sacke is right about Charlie not playing swing with the Stones, with a few exceptions maybe. Swing-eights are a triplet with the 2 first eight notes bended. In drum notation the middle eight of the triple is a rest, or dotted eighth-sixteenth, a more classical notation. This theory is first year music school fodder basically, 10 years old pupils. Charlie is playing straight (classic eights) on "Miss You" and with the Stones in general.. He's a great rock and blues drummer though, like thousands self-made musicians out there using the drums/hi-hat, bass, sax etc in different ways. As people say: "That guy has a great feeling".

[www.reverbnation.com]

Great post, thanks.

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Amsterdamned

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Mathijs

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Sacke

Well, nowadays people dance on music based on a computerbeats (mechanical)...I agreed it can be funky, as is Charlie's drums circa 75/76, but 'swing' is something different Matthijs! Charlie doesn't swing because he does some fills now and then...

Take a drum computer. Do a 4 to the floor with the kick, and 16th pattern on the hi-hat. What do we have? Static '80's Kraftwerk. Take out the last beat of each bar from the hi-hat. What do we have?

Miss You by the Stones.

Mathijs

Nope, Charlie is playing quavers on the hi-hat basically -no semi quavers, unless you consider the "Miss You" beat as a 4/2 of course.

Sacke is right about Charlie not playing swing with the Stones, with a few exceptions maybe. Swing-eights are a triplet with the 2 first eight notes bended. In drum notation the middle eight of the triple is a rest, or dotted eighth-sixteenth, a more classical notation. This theory is first year music school fodder basically, 10 years old pupils. Anyway, Charlie is playing straight (classic eights) on "Miss You" and with the Stones in general.. He's a great rock and blues drummer though, like thousands self-made musicians out there using the drums/hi-hat, bass, sax etc in different ways. As people say: "That guy has a great feeling".

You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4.

Mathijs

I am a drummer and I was very curious.
Actually Charlie played 4/4 on the high hat until 1981. During an interview for the Emotional Rescue Album, Charlie explained the reason for the change. During the 80s many producers were experimenting with new drum sounds including computerized drums that were able to be mixed individually, drum by drum. The engineer wanted to isolate the drums individually and also from the cymbals. Each drum and cymbal was miked individually. The new mikes at the time were sound sensitive; meaning they shut off and on according to if that drum was being played or not. The idea was to stop bleed through from one mike to the other just like the computerized or electric drums. Charlie refused to record the new way but.. Charlie was able to isolate the snare hit by stopping the right hand on snare hits.

Believe me I too was in a band that recorded in the 80s. The producer wanted me to play the beat using a plastic high hat & cymbals. THen I was to go back and overdub the cymbals later. I tried...it failed ..I finally took a page from Charlie WAtts and recorded our demo tape just like he did by stopping the right hand on snare hits. I use that technique alot when I play medium tempo blues. Its really an old Blues Drummer's Trick....I imagine since Charlie was originally a Blues Drummer....Thats where he learned about it.

SOULSURVIVOR

You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

Beside guitar I,ve played drums for some 40 years, and I would say, what Charlie does is very simple (or sounds that way) , but it,s not easy to do what he do!! and whatever drumkit I have had, I cant get it sound like Charlie, and I havent heard anyone else who can. He,s so "steady" and hit the drums in a very special way no one else can do! Its also something to do with (as said here) the way he hold hes sticks. Its the good old blues/jazzstyle that allmost no-one else use - at least not rockmusicians. THERE IS ONLY ONE CHARLIE WATTS!!
Keep on rocking Charlie!

Cheers Bo ><



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-08 02:04 by hedegaard.

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Bärs
The man knows how to swing right?

Yes, all of them do, which leads to this point --

In a combo format, I'm not sure any one person can swing (however we define that) alone. If swing can be created simply by creating space, as Mathijs suggested, , then others in the band could either: 1) contribute to and increase the swing by their own choices and/or feel; or 2) destroy the swing possibility created by the first musician.....anyway...

As to what swing is -- some posters talk about the triplet-based rhythm of "swing," music and some use a broader definition -- something like anything that makes you want to move your hips or anything that doesn't just plod along..

Anyway, that triplet-based rhythm is not just found in "swing music." It's also found in a lot of blues, especially shuffles, boogie woogie and rockabilly. So, it's not like there's no connection between "swing music" and the Stones music, particularly the early music.

I think their collective ability to translate some of those rhythms, and some of that swing, into non-blues (i.e. rock) formats is one of the signficant contributions they made to music.

Besides swinging or not Charlie was fantastic on tracks like Moonlight Mile and Till The Next Goodbye with his stop-start style, quite unique.

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soulsurvivor1
I am a drummer and I was very curious.
Actually Charlie played 4/4 on the high hat until 1981. During an interview for the Emotional Rescue Album, Charlie explained the reason for the change [...]

There is "video proof" in the thread that Charlie pulled off the hi-hat live at least as early as 1975.

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Bärs

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soulsurvivor1
I am a drummer and I was very curious.
Actually Charlie played 4/4 on the high hat until 1981. During an interview for the Emotional Rescue Album, Charlie explained the reason for the change [...]

There is "video proof" in the thread that Charlie pulled off the hi-hat live at least as early as 1975.

Listen to "GYYYO", the best hi-hat masterclass in rock history imo.

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

Just forget it, I explained it two or three post ago.

Ive Been Listening to Goats Head Soup a lot lately and Charlie is just outstanding on that album. Me thinks his playing on it is even better than on EOMS. (of course EOMS is better overall). The Band was still hot off the 72 tour during those sessions in Jamaica and you can really hear it in Charlies Drumming.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-08 16:18 by ryanpow.

I'm a drummer also. I go along with Mathijs on this one.

Also take Charlie out of the Stones as a liveband and take for instance Wino's drummmer Jordan instead, or any other drummer. It just ain't got that feel or swing. Neither Mick solo or Keith solo or any cover band I know of has made that special rhythm feels "right" as when Charlie is in the band. He really is a faboulous drummer with the Stones.

No Charlie, no Stones.

Actually, the recent live sample on SFTD really illustrates this as the feel only comes in when charlie starts drumming over the sample ;-).

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

Exactly. Perfect explanation to me.

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

I was talking about swing feel notation regarded to Jazz. Not about the Stones being a swinging band or "swing" as described on the wiki sites etc. Is that so difficult to understand, DP?

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Amsterdamned

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

I was talking about swing feel notation regarded to Jazz. Not about the Stones being a swinging band or "swing" as described on the wiki sites etc. Is that so difficult to understand, DP?

Ah come on man, you state that Charlie doesn't play swing as it is defined in a technical sense and as it is played as a musical genre, while we are discussing three pages long about how Charlie is a swinging drummer. You got it totally wrong, again.

Mathijs

Not sure if already mentioned, but I always thought his use of the kick contributes a lot to his 'swing'.

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Amsterdamned

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

I was talking about swing feel notation regarded to Jazz. Not about the Stones being a swinging band or "swing" as described on the wiki sites etc. Is that so difficult to understand, DP?

Ah come on man, you state that Charlie doesn't play swing as it is defined in a technical sense and as it is played as a musical genre, while we are discussing three pages long about how Charlie is a swinging drummer. You got it totally wrong, again.

Mathijs

Piss off Mathijs, I stated in this topic that Charlie a great selfmade Jazz player, so he can play trad swing.

You indeed stated that, but that remark is completely besides the point. It just totally misses the mark.

Zoals altijd....

Mathijs

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Koen
Not sure if already mentioned, but I always thought his use of the kick contributes a lot to his 'swing'.

Don't know about what the definitions on "swing" is around here, but Darryl states in an interview from '94 or '95 that Charlies snare-beat is one of the things that makes his groove very special. He hits it a millisecond or so behind the beat, creating a backbeat.

[www.reverbnation.com]

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
You got the semantics wrong -nobody is stating Charlie plays a swing pattern on any track (maybe Midnight Rambler, but that's a shuffle to me), but drums start to swing and groove when you skip a beat out of a bar. Nothing to do with the musical style of swing, but all about people shaking hips and tapping feed the moment Charlie seems to play a standard 4/4. <Mathijs>


No, I got the semantics right. Iam referring to Sacke's quote (he's talking about Charlie not playing in swing feel, "swing is something different Mathijs" and your comment on MISS YOU). I just explained in musical terms why Charlie doesn't play swing with the Stones. Charlie always was a great self-made jazz and rock drummer with some nice side-steps within the Stones. IMO in the studio he peaked on "Let it Bleed" and live on "GYYYO".

LOL! Guys you are definitely talking past eachother. To swing (verb) is something entirely different than to play swing (the music that made its mark in the 30s).

In rock'n'roll, swinging means going off the rails (doing unexpected things while holding a steady rhythm), rhythmwise - just like Charlie is doing with the hi hat-trick + some of his crashing and drumrolls in rather odd places.

When playing a steady beat all the way through, you have a hell of a task making it swing.

I was talking about swing feel notation regarded to Jazz. Not about the Stones being a swinging band or "swing" as described on the wiki sites etc. Is that so difficult to understand, DP?

Ah come on man, you state that Charlie doesn't play swing as it is defined in a technical sense and as it is played as a musical genre, while we are discussing three pages long about how Charlie is a swinging drummer. You got it totally wrong, again.

Mathijs

Piss off Mathijs, I stated in this topic that Charlie a great selfmade Jazz player, so he can play trad swing.

You indeed stated that, but that remark is completely besides the point. It just totally misses the mark.

Zoals altijd....

Mathijs

Call it a bit off-topic and more diverse/ regarding Sacke. Charlie deserves it....Halve aardappel.

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audun-eg

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Koen
Not sure if already mentioned, but I always thought his use of the kick contributes a lot to his 'swing'.

Don't know about what the definitions on "swing" is around here, but Darryl states in an interview from '94 or '95 that Charlies snare-beat is one of the things that makes his groove very special. He hits it a millisecond or so behind the beat, creating a backbeat.

Oh gosh, here we go with the terminology again. Your comment is interesting, and I thought I knew what you were saying right up to the end, but I don't call that a backbeat. Maybe I should retire from this thread...

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audun-eg

Don't know about what the definitions on "swing" is around here, but Darryl states in an interview from '94 or '95 that Charlies snare-beat is one of the things that makes his groove very special. He hits it a millisecond or so behind the beat, creating a backbeat.

That's actually Charlie's timing then.

Love Charlie's two kick beat, Beggars' Jigsaw Puzzle, Let It Bleed's title track drumming is outstanding, Ya-Ya's (the loping beat on Satisfaction, the pounding JJF, Carol and Street Fighting Man), Sticky Fingers (Bitch is another one where he moves the beat around but it's got that double thump throughout it) and on Exile (Rocks Off, Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down The Line, Stop Breaking Down).