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24FPS
Their last great LP side. Undercover was a mess and Dirty Work was the first CD, making album sides obsolete.

I bought every album up to & including 'Voodoo Lounge' on vinyl, & didn't own a CD player until the late 90s (I still think of Mean Disposition as a bonus track).

Still to beat: Side 2 of Let It Bleed! Midnight Rambler; You Got The Silver; Monkey Man and You Can't Always Get What You Want.

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flilflam

Not only do the four songs show good musicianship and harmonizing, but they also have a special quality. They are slow and haunting and mysterious. The lyrics are intelligent and reflective.

I think these five songs are some of the best music the Stones have ever made. I would like to hear more of these unusual and unique songs on their next CD. Hopefully, there will be a few more CD's before the men decide to retire.

I guess many of these songs on side 2 of "Tattoo You" derive from the "Goats Head Soup" era one way or another. They either were conceived during this era (like Waiting On A Friend and Tops) or at least follow a very similar route. I can't really imagine another period within the Stones career when they were as open to try such mellow, delicate and strange sounding material. Must have something to do with the "caribean surroundings" permeating the GHS sessions and maybe the "comedown" feel after completing Exile and the STP Tour. Although im no "Taylorite" I think many of these titles are connected to Mick Taylor's presence as a band member, even if some of these titles may have been recorded after his departure



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 12:09 by Greenblues.

A great sequencing feat; from different eras and studios, they flow into each other like perfection. I wanted to say "well the best part is 'Worried' into 'Tops'", and then I realize that having 'Heaven' come next is just as vital. From 'Heaven' into a slow Blues/Soul number ('Aint no use.." one of the big underrated Stones ballads). And "Waiting" is such a unique album closer for a band like the Stones.

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Sleepy City

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24FPS
Their last great LP side. Undercover was a mess and Dirty Work was the first CD, making album sides obsolete.

I bought every album up to & including 'Voodoo Lounge' on vinyl, & didn't own a CD player until the late 90s (I still think of Mean Disposition as a bonus track).

For me, Dirty Work is the last album that had sides. I mean, I don't have it on LP, obviously, but I'd bet all my money on side 1 ending after Too Rude. With the albums that came after it, I honestly have no idea... Besides, wasn't Voodoo Lounge released on two LPs? That in itself proves conclusively that it wasn't thought of as an LP release, as nobody from the band ever called it a double album, unlike Exile which also fits on one CD but it is still thought of as a double album to this day.

What makes the (concept-like) B-side of TATTOO YOU almost anomaly-like in the rockin' Pathe Marconi-era is that the key songs are from a different era. The reflective feeling - that you don't find at all in SOME GIRLS or EMOTIONAL RESCUE - is so much present there: "Worried about You" is a reflective, 'mature' BLACK AND BLUE number (a cousin of "Memory Motel" and "Fool To Cry"), and "Tops" and "Waitin' On a Friend" have that Taylorisque lyrical GOATS HEAD SOUP atmosphere in them. The more recent experiment "Heaven" suits there fine, as Ronnie's (?) bluesy "Ain't No Use in Crying" (that didn't made EMOTIONAL RESCUE I think due to too similar "Down In The Hole").

Since the B-side being so surprisingly novel, unique and strong - thanks to its strange or 'trick'-like origin plus Jagger's best vocal performances probably ever - UNDERCOVER was such a huge disappointment. Jagger and Richards's 'recent' pen simply just couldn't come up gems like that any longer. The difference was so huge. The songs of UNDERCOVER are craftwise quite mediocre. Since UNDERCOVER was my second new Stones album, and all my expectations were based on TATTOO YOU (with which I fell love with the Stones), and I remember thinking at the time, "yeah, the band rocks hard and all that but where are all the great songs?" And it's been like that ever since. Funnily, I think the first Stones song that really could give me shivers like TATTOO YOU was "Plundered My Soul"... That doesn't mean that the Stones haven't come up with some good songs ever since but some special "x-factor" has been missing, as far my taste goes. I learned that x-factor in TATTOO YOU.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 14:33 by Doxa.

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Doxa
What makes the (concept-like) B-side of TATTOO YOU almost anomaly-like in the rockin' Pathe Marconi-era is that the key songs are from a different era. The reflective feeling - that you don't find at all in SOME GIRLS or EMOTIONAL RESCUE - is so much present there: "Worried about You" is a reflective, 'mature' BLACK AND BLUE number (a cousin of "Memory Motel" and "Fool To Cry"), and "Tops" and "Waitin' On a Friend" have that Taylorisque lyrical GOATS HEAD SOUP atmosphere in them. The more recent experiment "Heaven" suits there fine, as Ronnie's (?) bluesy "Ain't No Use in Crying" (that didn't made EMOTIONAL RESCUE I think due to too similar "Down In The Hole").

Since the B-side being so surprisingly novel, unique and strong - thanks to its strange or 'trick'-like origin plus Jagger's best vocal performances probably ever - UNDERCOVER was such a huge disappointment. Jagger and Richards's 'recent' pen simply just couldn't come up gems like that any longer. The difference was so huge. The songs of UNDERCOVER are craftwise quite mediocre. Since UNDERCOVER was my second new Stones album, and all my expectations were based on TATTOO YOU (with which I fell love with the Stones), and I remember thinking at the time, "yeah, the band rocks hard and all that but where are all the great songs?" And it's been like that ever since. Funnily, I think the first Stones song that really could give me shivers like TATTOO YOU was "Plundered My Soul"... That doesn't mean that the Stones haven't come up with some good songs ever since but some special "x-factor" has been missing, as far my taste goes. I learned that x-factor in TATTOO YOU.

- Doxa

Good post, Doxa! But I strongly disagree about Down In The Hole and No Use In Crying, as well as your thoughts regarding the songwriting on Undercover.

Undercover, She Was Hot, Tie You Up, Feel On Baby, Pretty Beat Up, Too Tough - those are very, very good songs, imo. And they are extremely well played, too.

But there is something about the production on the album Undercover that doesn't hold up to Tattoo You's standards, imo.

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DandelionPowderman
I strongly disagree about Down In The Hole and No Use In Crying, as well as your thoughts regarding the songwriting on Undercover.

Undercover, She Was Hot, Tie You Up, Feel On Baby, Pretty Beat Up, Too Tough - those are very, very good songs, imo. And they are extremely well played, too.

But there is something about the production on the album Undercover that doesn't hold up to Tattoo You's standards, imo.

Well, yes and no. Compared to anything they have done ever since, most of the songs you mentioned are strong ones - especially "Undercover of The Night" and "She Was Hot". But if we time travel back to 1983, the standard of quality was quite high as far as the Stones go. I did try to like these songs very much but finally got the conclusion that I am not - no matter how much I hope - wittnessing a classical Stones album with some extremily strong songs in it, to have born. Some songs, like "Wanna Hold You" or "It Must be Hell", are really weak compared to their earlier attempts on the same theme: think the idea of "keith rocker" being based on "Happy", "Before They Make Me Run" and "Little T&A"!; in "Must Be Hell" the band - especially Keith - just sounds recicling old ideas without any inspiration. I never have liked the sounds, length and musical idea(s) of "Feel On Baby" that I think is boring and dumb-sounding (should have put great "I think I'm Going Mad" instead). The new sound experiment in "Undercover of The Night" sound forced, and the song is not that great or remarkable to begin with (it never turned to be a big Stones number, a'la "Start Me Up"). I never been quite comfortalbe with new sound experiments of "Too Much Blood" either, even though I think I have started to appreciate it more lately. But the band sounds not 'home' in it, and has lost some of their edge - sounds more like a Jagger solo number we would later be familiar with. Then there are some nice groovy but sketchy-like rockers - quite many of them - but none of them is particular one to remember (too obvious or familiar sounding to make a difference), even though I really love "Too Tough" and "All The Way Down" for some reasons. But I think having so many of them, they somehow kill the drama of the album, and it starts to sound repitive and boring. But that's me.

But what makes UNDERCOVER special is that the band is mostly on fire. Unfortunately the material is not in that level.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 15:12 by Doxa.

I like Wanna Hold You, and don't think there is any recycling there? The song is really a pop song, even with a different twist to Keith's open G-playing. BTMMR is the only song I can think of which is in that same genre.

She Was Hot is really top notch songwriting, imo. A rocker with melody and a really nice arrangement (the chorus + the beat-turnaround towards the ending - fabulous!).

Feel On Baby, yeah, might be a question wether one likes dub/reggae or not. This one is supposedly mixed/arranged by Keith, and personally I think he did a good job with it, of course heavily inspired and influenced by the master of rhythm at the time; Sly and Robbie.

I actually find Undercover Of The Night more inventive and punchy than SMU, but that's me.

And let's not forget the brilliant Tie You Up, with Keith's best guitar solo ever, imo.

I thought the production was a bit selling out already in the 80s, but it stands pretty solid now 28 years later, imo.

AND: Pretty Beat Up must be the grooviest track they cut.

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Greenblues
I guess many of these songs on side 2 of "Tattoo You" derive from the "Goats Head Soup" era one way or another.

No, only two do.

Worried About You - recorded for Black And Blue
Tops - recorded for Goats Head Soup
Heaven - recorded after Emotional Rescue
No Use In Crying - recorded for Emotional Rescue
Waiting On A Friend - recorded for Goats Head Soup

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DandelionPowderman
I like Wanna Hold You, and don't think there is any recycling there? The song is really a pop song, even with a different twist to Keith's open G-playing. BTMMR is the only song I can think of which is in that same genre.

She Was Hot is really top notch songwriting, imo. A rocker with melody and a really nice arrangement (the chorus + the beat-turnaround towards the ending - fabulous!).

Feel On Baby, yeah, might be a question wether one likes dub/reggae or not. This one is supposedly mixed/arranged by Keith, and personally I think he did a good job with it, of course heavily inspired and influenced by the master of rhythm at the time; Sly and Robbie.

I actually find Undercover Of The Night more inventive and punchy than SMU, but that's me.

And let's not forget the brilliant Tie You Up, with Keith's best guitar solo ever, imo.

I thought the production was a bit selling out already in the 80s, but it stands pretty solid now 28 years later, imo.

AND: Pretty Beat Up must be the grooviest track they cut.

Just few points.

No, "Wanna Hold You" is not recicling anything (if we don't count the Beatles..) but its theme was that of "keith number", and if we look what caliber songs do belong to that category, "Wanna Hold You" was a HUGE disappointment at the time. And to this day I think of it as a"fun song" that is not fun at all. A dumb, children's song.

I like reggae very much, but "Feel On Baby" just doesn't work. Tiresome. And dumb.

Yeah, the production sucked already at the time of its release. The album sounded a bit artificial - a bit like Dylan's EMPIRE BURLESQUE two years later. Old stuff in a new package, but the contrast was way too visible.

The arguments for or against "Start Me Up" contra "Undercover of the Night" are way too idiosyncratic here. Yeah, I can say that I like more "Dancing With Mr. D" than "Tumblin Dice" or "Brown Sugar", but that doesn't change the status of the songs like "Brown Sugar" or "Start Me Up" enjoying in the Stones canon, and in the history of rock and roll. Of course, I have a special place for "Start Me Up" in my heart since that was the song that captured my attention in 1981, and made me a fan. It was a huge hit and a song - it defined an era. And there are many people like me belonging to that particular "Stones fan generation". I haven't wittnessed such a song to have born ever since. It is sad that fan generations ever since haven't had the possibility to experience the Stones being, with their recent doings, actually "hot" in the radio and dance floor and everywhere.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 15:39 by Doxa.

Agree side 2 is excellent. Love Tops, Heaven and the Waiting on a Friend video is great.


John Nicholls

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DragonSky

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Greenblues
I guess many of these songs on side 2 of "Tattoo You" derive from the "Goats Head Soup" era one way or another.

No, only two do.

Worried About You - recorded for Black And Blue
Tops - recorded for Goats Head Soup
Heaven - recorded after Emotional Rescue
No Use In Crying - recorded for Emotional Rescue
Waiting On A Friend - recorded for Goats Head Soup

I know that, DragonSky. And if you read my post more accurately (the whole of it, I mean), you'll recognise that my point is not so much about WHEN these tracks have been recorded. It's much more about the influence of the GHS era and Taylor's contribution as an "inspiring factor".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 16:06 by Greenblues.

Since you mention "the generation" that started to listen to the Stones with Start me Up,
MY generation too, thank you, I wonder how Doxa and DandelionPowderman and others went along
discovering the other Stones era's.

After Tattoo You got me hooked, the next album I bought was High Tide and Green Grass, because
I was looking for a greatest hits album. So my Stones reference in the early 80s was basically
built upon an odd combination of songs like Come On, Lady Jane, 19th Nervous Breakdown,
Hang Fire, Slave and Worried about you. I did hardly know songs like Midnight Rambler, Sympathy
for the Devil, Happy or Gimme Shelter BEFORE I got to learn to appreciate Tattoo You.

I still had a lot left to discover when Undercover came out. For someone who just fell in love
with the band it was a glorious feeling to be present at the "birth" of new songs. Meanwhile
I was getting to know Get yer ya-ya's out!, Beggars Banquet, Sticky Fingers and Aftermath.

These were great years and what a great experience to find out about all the beauty the Stones
had to offer.

What I am trying to say is, right now I have a complete picture of everything the boys created
and with hindsight I can see what place Tattoo You and Undercover have in the large output
of the band. But there was a time when I put the Let it bleed album for the first time on
my pick up and thought it was rather disappointing. What was this Country Honk and Love in Vain? Where was the energy of She was hot or Neigbours?

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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marcovandereijk
Since you mention "the generation" that started to listen to the Stones with Start me Up,
MY generation too, thank you, I wonder how Doxa and DandelionPowderman and others went along
discovering the other Stones era's.

After Tattoo You got me hooked, the next album I bought was High Tide and Green Grass, because
I was looking for a greatest hits album. So my Stones reference in the early 80s was basically
built upon an odd combination of songs like Come On, Lady Jane, 19th Nervous Breakdown,
Hang Fire, Slave and Worried about you. I did hardly know songs like Midnight Rambler, Sympathy
for the Devil, Happy or Gimme Shelter BEFORE I got to learn to appreciate Tattoo You.

I still had a lot left to discover when Undercover came out. For someone who just fell in love
with the band it was a glorious feeling to be present at the "birth" of new songs. Meanwhile
I was getting to know Get yer ya-ya's out!, Beggars Banquet, Sticky Fingers and Aftermath.

These were great years and what a great experience to find out about all the beauty the Stones
had to offer.

What I am trying to say is, right now I have a complete picture of everything the boys created
and with hindsight I can see what place Tattoo You and Undercover have in the large output
of the band. But there was a time when I put the Let it bleed album for the first time on
my pick up and thought it was rather disappointing. What was this Country Honk and Love in Vain? Where was the energy of She was hot or Neigbours?

It was TY that got me hooked, too. And I got Undercover for X-mas the following year.

After that I heard She's A Rainbow, Under My Thumb, Satisfaction and HTW on a cassette that belonged to my friend's dad. A completely different band, I thought at first - but it didn't take long to appreciate the older stuff. It was simply great.

Then I went to the record stores and bought everything I could afford. I miss those times, hanging in the record stores, listening to stones albums I hadn't heard before. Good times!

I know this is about Tattoo You, but to defend the song 'Undercover', I think it is a top tier Stones song that is just too difficult for them to pull off on stage. Like the much maligned 'Indian Girl', it is of its time, reflecting the turmoil in South America.

I think all of those songs on side 2 of Tattoo You would have improved the albums they were recorded for. (Except Heaven, which was cut after ER). Especially 'Worried About You'. I remember how ripped off I felt that there were only 8 cuts on Black and Blue.

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24FPS
I think all of those songs on side 2 of Tattoo You would have improved the albums they were recorded for. (Except Heaven, which was cut after ER). Especially 'Worried About You'. I remember how ripped off I felt that there were only 8 cuts on Black and Blue.

I suppose the reason to not include "Worried About You" for B&B but simply that there were enough long, reflective, story-like slow ballads already; there was no room for it, or it would have made the album too much one-like, or broken its proposed balance. Albums those days was not just a collection of songs but an organic art form of its own (I miss those times...) I especially think that "Fool to Cry" was too similar to it. They probably chose between those two, which was a easy choice since "Fool To Cry" turned out to be the leading single of the album (ideally, "Worried About You" would have a killer B-side of "Fool to Cry" single...) I guess there were similar kind of reasons for neglecting those GOATS HEAD SOUP tracks as well. We need to to notice that here are some absulutely lyrical gems - "Winter", "100 Years Ago", "Angie", "Coming Down Again" - that actually made the album... Actually, the quality of the song-writing was incredibly high at those times, so there was natural competition.

Anyway, I have always thought that "Waitin' On A Friend" was strongly "inspired" by Carole King hit "You Need A Friend" that was a huge hit at the time. Probably the connection was too too clear in 1973, but 8 years later no one noticed it anymore... There is that kind of connection in some other TY cut as well but can't recall that now.

Lastly, I have the feeling that for the songs themselves it was better to leave them for years in the vaults. I think the inspired, vocally strong and cohesive Jagger is the extra weapon in the 1981 recordings that really lifts the songs to brilliance. I can't really think how "Friend" or "Tops" or "Worried" could have sounded as good if they were released already in 1973/76. Now the mixing of the times works wonderfully.

- Doxa

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Sleepy City

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24FPS
Their last great LP side. Undercover was a mess and Dirty Work was the first CD, making album sides obsolete.

I bought every album up to & including 'Voodoo Lounge' on vinyl, & didn't own a CD player until the late 90s (I still think of Mean Disposition as a bonus track).

I think VOODOO LOUNGE is the first album that is actually done CD format in mind, while STEEL WHEELS being the last one vinyl concept album with its clearly separated 'two sides' in mind. The whole business had radically changed during those 5 years. I suppose Jagger's WANDERING SPIRIT and Keith's MAIN OFFENDER were the last vinyl concept albums they have done (even though they were sold mostly in CD mode). I think the vinyl 'philosophy' is still in those two.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-13 21:14 by Doxa.

Love side two...class songs. If only they could produce another recording of this calibre.

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Sleepy City

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24FPS
Their last great LP side. Undercover was a mess and Dirty Work was the first CD, making album sides obsolete.

I bought every album up to & including 'Voodoo Lounge' on vinyl, & didn't own a CD player until the late 90s (I still think of Mean Disposition as a bonus track).

So, you're saying you still need Stripped, BtB, No Security, ABB, Rarities and Rolled Gold+ and the Exile/Some Girls reissues!

Get thee to work!

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24FPS
I know this is about Tattoo You, but to defend the song 'Undercover', I think it is a top tier Stones song that is just too difficult for them to pull off on stage. Like the much maligned 'Indian Girl', it is of its time, reflecting the turmoil in South America.

I think all of those songs on side 2 of Tattoo You would have improved the albums they were recorded for. (Except Heaven, which was cut after ER). Especially 'Worried About You'. I remember how ripped off I felt that there were only 8 cuts on Black and Blue.

Agree, Undercover is sublime, like IORR, in studio form. Neither seems to work all that well live.

Gonna listen to it today!