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Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Date: January 24, 2020 14:23

Quote
Rocky Dijon
So back to "Think I'm Going Mad," can we settle on who's playing keyboards and saxophone?

I'd say 1983-overdubs by Sanborn and Chuck. And it's piano, not keyboards (semantics, I know winking smiley ). As far as I know, Mac never played piano with the Stones.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 14:41

Reasonable conclusion then:

The EMOTIONAL RESCUE outtake was edited/remixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and then during the UNDERCOVER sessions, overdubs of piano and saxophone were added. The omission of Kimsey's credit as an Associate Producer may have been done because he was a full co-producer by UNDERCOVER and they didn't want to credit or possibly compensate him as such for the B-side.

Anyone think differently regarding piano and saxophone? What about the circulating outtake from EMOTIONAL RESCUE? Is the piano and saxophone different from what is on the 45?

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Date: January 24, 2020 14:46

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Reasonable conclusion then:

The EMOTIONAL RESCUE outtake was edited/remixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and then during the UNDERCOVER sessions, overdubs of piano and saxophone were added. The omission of Kimsey's credit as an Associate Producer may have been done because he was a full co-producer by UNDERCOVER and they didn't want to credit or possibly compensate him as such for the B-side.

Anyone think differently regarding piano and saxophone? What about the circulating outtake from EMOTIONAL RESCUE? Is the piano and saxophone different from what is on the 45?

And, apart from Rollins (who has a completely different style), only Collins and Sanborn (a bit slicker in style) have those kind of jazzy chops we hear in the phrasing on Going Mad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-24 14:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 15:04

The possiblity of Mel Collins is why I suspect the track might actually originate from SOME GIRLS since there is no record of him attending an EMOTIONAL RESCUE session. If he had, he would have played the saxophone solo on "Emotional Rescue" and not Bobby. The circulating band outtake is likely Collins.

Then it's the remaining question, is the circulating band outtake a different saxophone than what is heard on the B-side in 1984? If it is different, then it is likely David Sanborn.

If the track originates from SOME GIRLS (as the inclusion of Mel Collins would suggest) and not EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on piano on the outtake? As Bard says it doesn't sound like Mac who was fired sometime after the blind concerts in April 1979 and before they reached Pathe-Marconi in the summer and brought Nicky Hopkins back. It is possible the circulating outtake is a SOME GIRLS outtake with Mac's contribution wiped and replaced with Nicky's piano as they did with the Compass Point sessions earlier that year. This would likely have been mixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and been refreshed during UNDERCOVER with possible overdubs by Chuck and Sanborn.

Anyone else? I believe Gaslight thinks the sax and piano on the b-side are the same as the circulating outtake, just mixed differently. That is also a possibility.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 24, 2020 17:29

Quote
Rocky Dijon
The possiblity of Mel Collins is why I suspect the track might actually originate from SOME GIRLS since there is no record of him attending an EMOTIONAL RESCUE session. If he had, he would have played the saxophone solo on "Emotional Rescue" and not Bobby. The circulating band outtake is likely Collins.

Then it's the remaining question, is the circulating band outtake a different saxophone than what is heard on the B-side in 1984? If it is different, then it is likely David Sanborn.

If the track originates from SOME GIRLS (as the inclusion of Mel Collins would suggest) and not EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on piano on the outtake? As Bard says it doesn't sound like Mac who was fired sometime after the blind concerts in April 1979 and before they reached Pathe-Marconi in the summer and brought Nicky Hopkins back. It is possible the circulating outtake is a SOME GIRLS outtake with Mac's contribution wiped and replaced with Nicky's piano as they did with the Compass Point sessions earlier that year. This would likely have been mixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and been refreshed during UNDERCOVER with possible overdubs by Chuck and Sanborn.

Anyone else? I believe Gaslight thinks the sax and piano on the b-side are the same as the circulating outtake, just mixed differently. That is also a possibility.

Just by listening to the intro sax part, there are different mixes to listen to, and some are the unedited song, but from what I can tell they all have the same roll in them. If they did get someone else to replace the original sax they did a pretty damn good job of playing the swagger of the original.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 24, 2020 17:31

Quote
Rocky Dijon
The possiblity of Mel Collins is why I suspect the track might actually originate from SOME GIRLS since there is no record of him attending an EMOTIONAL RESCUE session. If he had, he would have played the saxophone solo on "Emotional Rescue" and not Bobby. The circulating band outtake is likely Collins.

Then it's the remaining question, is the circulating band outtake a different saxophone than what is heard on the B-side in 1984? If it is different, then it is likely David Sanborn.

If the track originates from SOME GIRLS (as the inclusion of Mel Collins would suggest) and not EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on piano on the outtake? As Bard says it doesn't sound like Mac who was fired sometime after the blind concerts in April 1979 and before they reached Pathe-Marconi in the summer and brought Nicky Hopkins back. It is possible the circulating outtake is a SOME GIRLS outtake with Mac's contribution wiped and replaced with Nicky's piano as they did with the Compass Point sessions earlier that year. This would likely have been mixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and been refreshed during UNDERCOVER with possible overdubs by Chuck and Sanborn.

Anyone else? I believe Gaslight thinks the sax and piano on the b-side are the same as the circulating outtake, just mixed differently. That is also a possibility.

It doesn't sound like Some Girls at all, the drums have that snappy Emotional Rescue sound and the China crash.

That said, Jim Barber has stated he played bass one night with the Stones while recording Undercover, and that they played ITIGM for 12 hours in a row, and that they did multiple sessions on it for several days.

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 24, 2020 17:35

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Rocky Dijon
The possiblity of Mel Collins is why I suspect the track might actually originate from SOME GIRLS since there is no record of him attending an EMOTIONAL RESCUE session. If he had, he would have played the saxophone solo on "Emotional Rescue" and not Bobby. The circulating band outtake is likely Collins.

Then it's the remaining question, is the circulating band outtake a different saxophone than what is heard on the B-side in 1984? If it is different, then it is likely David Sanborn.

If the track originates from SOME GIRLS (as the inclusion of Mel Collins would suggest) and not EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on piano on the outtake? As Bard says it doesn't sound like Mac who was fired sometime after the blind concerts in April 1979 and before they reached Pathe-Marconi in the summer and brought Nicky Hopkins back. It is possible the circulating outtake is a SOME GIRLS outtake with Mac's contribution wiped and replaced with Nicky's piano as they did with the Compass Point sessions earlier that year. This would likely have been mixed by Clearmountain for TATTOO YOU and been refreshed during UNDERCOVER with possible overdubs by Chuck and Sanborn.

Anyone else? I believe Gaslight thinks the sax and piano on the b-side are the same as the circulating outtake, just mixed differently. That is also a possibility.

It doesn't sound like Some Girls at all, the drums have that snappy Emotional Rescue sound and the China crash.

That said, Jim Barber has stated he played bass one night with the Stones while recording Undercover, and that they played ITIGM for 12 hours in a row, and that they did multiple sessions on it for several days.

Mathijs

Charlie got the China crash after the first sessions for SOME GIRLS - it's on 2 tracks as far as I recall. You can tell what wasn't recorded late and for ER on TY because of the same reason - no China crash.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Nightshade ()
Date: January 24, 2020 18:28

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
z
I think it's based on a simple C and Fmaj7 in the 1st position. Index finger hammering the c note and the little finger adding the d note.
Not just a regular Fsus? I know Collins (or Sanborn?) extends that chord with notes from the maj-chord a few times, but does Keith really play a Fmaj there?

Yeah I think you're right,thank you.
I was thinking way to complicated.... I always thought this riff shares similarities with the Beast of Burden riff or the second bar of the Almost hear you sight riff, so I asumed it must be the the C at the 8.fret and then some kind of hammer-on.
But as with many of Keiths riffs, its all down to rhythm and the accents and how he mutes the other strings. Most of the time it's pretty easy, but therein lies his genius.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: January 24, 2020 18:45

My copy of the 12' single does co-credit Kimsey as producer.

[www.discogs.com]

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 18:47

Quote
GasLightStreet

Just by listening to the intro sax part, there are different mixes to listen to, and some are the unedited song, but from what I can tell they all have the same roll in them. If they did get someone else to replace the original sax they did a pretty damn good job of playing the swagger of the original.

I thought that's what you had previously said. So what about the piano on the unedited outtake? If we've ruled out Mac, is it Nicky or Chuck? I presume the question of placement is why Nico Zentgraf and Ian McPherson speculate it's Mick on piano, though it seems unlikely to me.

Is the piano on the unedited outtake different from the b-side to your ears or is the b-side simply the Clearmountain edit/remix for TATTOO YOU of the EMOTIONAL RESCUE outtake?

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 19:03

Quote
Mathijs
It doesn't sound like Some Girls at all, the drums have that snappy Emotional Rescue sound and the China crash.

That said, Jim Barber has stated he played bass one night with the Stones while recording Undercover, and that they played ITIGM for 12 hours in a row, and that they did multiple sessions on it for several days.

That's a really good point about the China crash. So if it's definitely EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on sax and piano? I wouldn't think it's Bobby. If it's Mel Collins and we're unaware of his being present in 1979, why didn't he play on the actual album - particularly the title track? Is it Nicky on piano?

The track has fascinated me for a long time because it appears (unlikely as it is) to be a hybrid of SOME GIRLS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE, the TATTOO YOU overdubs, and UNDERCOVER remixing and possible overdubs.

As for Jim Barber, it could just be the long outtake we've heard with Keith on vocals (obviously a small part of the session). I certainly don't think the guitars on the b-side are Keith and Jim Barber during UNDERCOVER. They sound more like late seventies Pathe-Marconi sessions.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 19:13

Quote
SomeGuy
My copy of the 12' single does co-credit Kimsey as producer.

[www.discogs.com]

I would love to see the label or back sleeve. I believe you, but every copy I've seen, both Atlantic and EMI, list only The Glimmer Twins for producing "Think I'm Going Mad."

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: January 24, 2020 19:23

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Quote
SomeGuy
My copy of the 12' single does co-credit Kimsey as producer.

[www.discogs.com]

I would love to see the label or back sleeve. I believe you, but every copy I've seen, both Atlantic and EMI, list only The Glimmer Twins for producing "Think I'm Going Mad."

You can see when you check the pics on the link I gave.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 19:36

Thanks, SomeGuy. I missed the More Pics link the first time around. Interesting that Kimsey's name comes first as Producer before The Glimmer Twins. Unique until STEEL WHEELS. This would appear to be the only version that credits him. So much is fascinating about this oddly haunting little track.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Date: January 24, 2020 19:37


Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 19:44

"Bard wrecks the internet."

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: January 24, 2020 20:02

[www.youtube.com]

I really like this extended version with more backing vocals. Of course I take it with a grain of salt but there's a comment on this video from someone who says:

"This was actually GOING to be on ER - it was on the various track lists almost up to release time. Apparently it was one of the tracks Mick and Keith fought over at the time."

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: January 24, 2020 20:03

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Thanks, SomeGuy. I missed the More Pics link the first time around. Interesting that Kimsey's name comes first as Producer before The Glimmer Twins. Unique until STEEL WHEELS. This would appear to be the only version that credits him. So much is fascinating about this oddly haunting little track.

Listening to the alternate mix from UnsurMsrs, while I swallow a cup of coffee, makes me feel rather nostalgic indeed.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 24, 2020 21:32

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Quote
GasLightStreet

Just by listening to the intro sax part, there are different mixes to listen to, and some are the unedited song, but from what I can tell they all have the same roll in them. If they did get someone else to replace the original sax they did a pretty damn good job of playing the swagger of the original.

I thought that's what you had previously said. So what about the piano on the unedited outtake? If we've ruled out Mac, is it Nicky or Chuck? I presume the question of placement is why Nico Zentgraf and Ian McPherson speculate it's Mick on piano, though it seems unlikely to me.

Is the piano on the unedited outtake different from the b-side to your ears or is the b-side simply the Clearmountain edit/remix for TATTOO YOU of the EMOTIONAL RESCUE outtake?

I was focused on the sax. I'll give it a listen soon for the piano. Purely speculation but parts of it that I did hear while listening to parts of the song for the sax remind me of what's on IORR, the flourishes that aren't over the top sappy, so I'd go with Nicky.

I mean, come on, so many of us here know that if it was Chuck it would be cheesy tinkly tinkle going on and it's not.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 24, 2020 21:33

Given the wrong credits on EOMS (Jagger's doing) and who knows what else... it's obvious to me that Kimsey produced this song.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 24, 2020 21:37

In all fairness to Sea Level himself, his piano on "Fancy Man Blues" is not in Gaslight vernacular, "cheesy tinkly tinkle." I would put "Fancy Man Blues" up against anything Stu played and that's very high praise indeed.

Now the fake piano he plays late in "She Was Hot," that is "cheesy tinkly tinkle," but his organ work throughout UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK and even a bit of STEEL WHEELS is terrific.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Date: January 24, 2020 23:04

Quote
Rocky Dijon
"Bard wrecks the internet."

Did it from my cell phone, sorry smiling smiley

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 25, 2020 01:55

It probably won't last forever, but it's fun for now at least.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 25, 2020 02:41

Quote
Rocky Dijon
In all fairness to Sea Level himself, his piano on "Fancy Man Blues" is not in Gaslight vernacular, "cheesy tinkly tinkle." I would put "Fancy Man Blues" up against anything Stu played and that's very high praise indeed.

Now the fake piano he plays late in "She Was Hot," that is "cheesy tinkly tinkle," but his organ work throughout UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK and even a bit of STEEL WHEELS is terrific.

Oh I see... drawing lines in the sand now. Any particular kind of sand? Don't be distracted by an element of someone putting the quash on the tinkle. Look at, and imbibe, on the overall hues of the picture.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: January 25, 2020 17:28

Quote
Rocky Dijon
So much is fascinating about this oddly haunting little track.

It is haunting indeed. How many different versions of this track (bootleg or otherwise) are circulating?

Drew

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 25, 2020 19:53

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Rocky Dijon
In all fairness to Sea Level himself, his piano on "Fancy Man Blues" is not in Gaslight vernacular, "cheesy tinkly tinkle." I would put "Fancy Man Blues" up against anything Stu played and that's very high praise indeed.

Now the fake piano he plays late in "She Was Hot," that is "cheesy tinkly tinkle," but his organ work throughout UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK and even a bit of STEEL WHEELS is terrific.

Oh I see... drawing lines in the sand now. Any particular kind of sand? Don't be distracted by an element of someone putting the quash on the tinkle. Look at, and imbibe, on the overall hues of the picture.

Now, now. I'm right with you in criticizing Chuck in concert, but he's a damn good organist and, in odd moments on a proper piano, he plays that very well in the studio as well.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 26, 2020 16:12

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Quote
Mathijs
It doesn't sound like Some Girls at all, the drums have that snappy Emotional Rescue sound and the China crash.

That said, Jim Barber has stated he played bass one night with the Stones while recording Undercover, and that they played ITIGM for 12 hours in a row, and that they did multiple sessions on it for several days.

That's a really good point about the China crash. So if it's definitely EMOTIONAL RESCUE, who is on sax and piano? I wouldn't think it's Bobby. If it's Mel Collins and we're unaware of his being present in 1979, why didn't he play on the actual album - particularly the title track? Is it Nicky on piano?

The track has fascinated me for a long time because it appears (unlikely as it is) to be a hybrid of SOME GIRLS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE, the TATTOO YOU overdubs, and UNDERCOVER remixing and possible overdubs.

As for Jim Barber, it could just be the long outtake we've heard with Keith on vocals (obviously a small part of the session). I certainly don't think the guitars on the b-side are Keith and Jim Barber during UNDERCOVER. They sound more like late seventies Pathe-Marconi sessions.

They did sessions in 1977 for SOME GIRLS. In the midst of those sessions, Charlie got the China crash.

It's on: Misty Roads, Some Girls, Respectable, Summer Romance

It's not on: Miss You, Start Me Up, Whip, Imagination, Lies, Far Away Eyes, BTMMRun, Beast Of Burden, Shattered.

At the moment I don't have time to go through a few more SG session songs but there was obviously either a break in the 1977 sessions or at some point Charlie replaced a regular crash with the China, say, half way through, which gives an idea of what songs were done when.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 26, 2020 17:56

I'm grateful for the detail. I'd like to think at some point, with all the intelligence on the band folks here can gather, we'll be able to determine who is playing saxophone and keyboards and then settle definitively on when the track was cut. Right now I'm leaning towards Mel Collins in 1978 with Nicky Hopkins in 1979 and the mixing/editing completed in 1981 and then remixed in 1983.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Date: January 26, 2020 21:47

"...puttin the quash on the tinkle.."

I just like saying that.

Re: Track Talk: I Think I'm Going Mad
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: January 27, 2020 03:05

Quote
drewmaster
How many different versions of this track (bootleg or otherwise) are circulating?

Drew

Here's my tally so far:

She Was Hot 1984 7" Vinyl Single b-side (4:20)
Clean Cuts Vol 2 version (4:44)
Static in the Attic version (5:42)
Alternate Takes & Demos '70s version (6:36)
Loong Keith version (15:00)

Any I'm missing?

Drew

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