-a-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-08-23 20:25 by LongBeachArena72.

When my father first heard Satisfaction, he was convinced the Stones were black.
Regarding the lyric, I can't get no, Satisfaction:

His comment was,....... "If he was white he would say "I" not "Ah" and he would say "any" not no"......


....he also thought the same of CCR when he first heard their version of Suzie Q.

...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 03:05 by Rollin' Stoner.

Well, my friend, a lot of your questions will be answered properly if you bothered to read about this band, it's reception in the US, all the blues greats they toured with in England and how they built relationships, all the musicians from bands you mentioned here who toured with/wanted to play with the Stones/Stones side projects etc. etc.

Also, read about Keith's charity work/buying equipment for poor black musicians who once were big names.

I feel that you're throwing a torch you don't know quite how to light up here...

It was a loving tribute, and one done for the Stones' own commercial success. Both of those, no question.

But let's follow the money:

Realize that every cover they did (and they did do the credits right 95% of the time, unlike other bands) results in royalties being paid to the original artists and/or their families.

When I saw the Stones in 2013 they played Little Red Rooster and royalties went to Willie Dixon's family. They certainly didn't need to cover that song to please the crowd, but they did it anyway, and gave up $$ because of it.

Every copy of Sticky Fingers, Exile on Main Street, Some Girls, and Let it Bleed results in royalties to the artists who inspired the Stones, in addition to of course all of the early records. This isn't charity, but it's also something they didn't "have" to do - they were already very successful in their own right.

Etc Etc

They've made lots of money for these artists both indirectly via doing covers and directly (I'd say at least half of my collection of blues artists exists because of the Stones.)

But the Stones know full well that those artists will never get the full recognition they deserve. That's why they do things like Mick playing at the White House in honor of the blues earlier this year (or was it last) and Keith devoting most of "Under the Influence" to talking about and praising the black music that influenced him.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 02:06 by Turner68.

Quote
BluzDude
When my father first heard Satisfaction, he was convinced the Stones were black.
Regarding the lyric, I can't get no, Satisfaction:

His comment was,....... "If he was white he would say "I" not "Ah" and he would say "any" not no"......


....he also thought the same of CCR when he first heard their version of Suzie Q.

Also worth noting that when Otis Redding covered satisfaction - and did it much better than the Stones IMO - they started playing it and singing it like Otis did. And they never stopped.

Although I haven't heard it for a while, and I'll have to youtube it when I get home, Keiths induction (to the RARHOF) of the sidesmen and Johnny Johnson's speech, were classic.

Quote
BluzDude
Although I haven't heard it for a while, and I'll have to youtube it when I get home, Keiths induction (to the RARHOF) of the sidesmen and Johnny Johnson's speech, were classic.

here ya' go:











Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 01:55 by Turner68.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, my friend, a lot of your questions will be answered properly if you bothered to read about this band, it's reception in the US, all the blues greats they toured with in England and how they built relationships, all the musicians from bands you mentioned here who toured with/wanted to play with the Stones/Stones side projects etc. etc.

Also, read about Keith's charity work/buying equipment for poor black musicians who once were big names.

I feel that you're throwing a torch you don't know quite how to light up here...

I've read a lot about the band, DP. I guess I haven't read enough. Didn't know the Muddy painting story now don't know about how black musicians really felt about the success The Stones had recording their music. Will try harder.

I don't know what you mean about the torch. I don't know what the answers are to the questions I posed in my original post. I offered some of my opinions and I was hoping to solicit some opinions and information from others. I'll try to up my game next time.

Quote
LongBeachArena72

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, my friend, a lot of your questions will be answered properly if you bothered to read about this band, it's reception in the US, all the blues greats they toured with in England and how they built relationships, all the musicians from bands you mentioned here who toured with/wanted to play with the Stones/Stones side projects etc. etc.

Also, read about Keith's charity work/buying equipment for poor black musicians who once were big names.

I feel that you're throwing a torch you don't know quite how to light up here...

I've read a lot about the band, DP. I guess I haven't read enough. Didn't know the Muddy painting story now don't know about how black musicians really felt about the success The Stones had recording their music. Will try harder.

I don't know what you mean about the torch. I don't know what the answers are to the questions I posed in my original post. I offered some of my opinions and I was hoping to solicit some opinions and information from others. I'll try to up my game next time.

have you read stanley booth's book about the stones? it talks about this topic at length.

Or have ya listened to the first 5 albums ????????????????



ROCKMAN

Quote
Turner68

Quote
LongBeachArena72

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, my friend, a lot of your questions will be answered properly if you bothered to read about this band, it's reception in the US, all the blues greats they toured with in England and how they built relationships, all the musicians from bands you mentioned here who toured with/wanted to play with the Stones/Stones side projects etc. etc.

Also, read about Keith's charity work/buying equipment for poor black musicians who once were big names.

I feel that you're throwing a torch you don't know quite how to light up here...

I've read a lot about the band, DP. I guess I haven't read enough. Didn't know the Muddy painting story now don't know about how black musicians really felt about the success The Stones had recording their music. Will try harder.

I don't know what you mean about the torch. I don't know what the answers are to the questions I posed in my original post. I offered some of my opinions and I was hoping to solicit some opinions and information from others. I'll try to up my game next time.

have you read stanley booth's book about the stones? it talks about this topic at length.

i've read the book on the 69 tour--is that the one? yes, there was good material there about bb king and ike & tina. but i've also heard ike diss the stones (especially mick) unmercifully. maybe i'll go back and give it another read-through ...

The parts about chuck berry, bukka white, furry Lewis, prodigal son, you gotta move, etc yes you should read It again!

one excerpt:

I showed him Keith’s National guitar, and Bukka, who played a National, an uncommon guitar, was surprised, but not too surprised not to play it. Bukka took the guitar, fumbled a few notes, and said, “I lef my finger picks in the car,” because the white boy has to play first, that’s the way it goes. Bukka handed the guitar to Keith, who started playing “Dust My Broom.” Mick joined him, singing a couple of choruses; then they did “Key to the Highway.” Bukka listened, his head cocked to one side, and said, “That’s good. These boys is good. Has you ever made any records?” “Yes,” Keith said, looking startled. “I knew good and well you had. This a star, here,” Bukka announced to the room, holding his open hand over Keith’s head. “This a Hollywood Star. If I’m lyin’, I’m dyin’.”

Booth, Stanley (2014-10-01). The True Adventures of the Rolling Stones (Kindle Locations 2480-2486). Chicago Review Press. Kindle Edition.

(Bukka is BB King's older cousin)



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 04:11 by Turner68.

Quote
Rockman
Or have ya listened to the first 5 albums ????????????????

Clearly, I'm not expressing myself well. My first point above was that the band was formed primarily out of a love for black American music. And, yes, that was wonderfully apparent in those early records.

I was more interested in how those black artists felt about The Stones, how the black community felt about them, whether there was any "exploitation" involved, what people thought of the various racial brou-ha-ha's the band had been involved in over the years.

Not sure about any exploitation - maybe unintentionally?
And not sure how most black blues musicians feel/felt about the Stones.
What I do know is I that I discovered the blues via the Rolling Stones and other white bands that embraced the genre.

With that said, seems to me the Stones indeed worshiped their blues hero's (but again not sure the feeling was always mutual).

Rolling Stones Introduce Howlin' Wolf on Shindig 1965...





_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 03:12 by Hairball.

Quote
LongBeachArena72

Quote
Rockman
Or have ya listened to the first 5 albums ????????????????

Clearly, I'm not expressing myself well. My first point above was that the band was formed primarily out of a love for black American music. And, yes, that was wonderfully apparent in those early records.

I was more interested in how those black artists felt about The Stones, how the black community felt about them, whether there was any "exploitation" involved, what people thought of the various racial brou-ha-ha's the band had been involved in over the years.

you asked many questions, ranging from do the stones sound "black" to what do black people think of them to did the stones exploit them or love them...

i would also suggest seeing keith's movie about chuck berry, hail hail rock-n-roll, as chuck is probably the single biggest influence on them as well as one who has at times been very hostile to them. there are some great moments in it that are truly telling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 03:19 by Turner68.

I highly recommend FEEL LIKE GOING HOME and LOST HIGHWAY, both by
Peter Guralnick, who really knows his stuff. Both books will be out
in EBook format later this year.

Guralnick is one of the few writers who got close to Muddy and other blues greats.

Don't forget to read up on and listen to Son House.

It was all before my time but weren't artist's like Elvis Presley (Keith's 1st 45RPM) the ones truly responsible for the exploitation of black music in a way that the Stones never were. I remember reading somewhere about Col Parker specifically trying to make Elvis a white artist who played black music but never really heard about those guys giving much back to the black artists they stole the style from. I might be wrong, don't know that much about Elvis.

It seemed to me that the Stones were doing it for all the right reasons, a true love and respect for the black music and not a hint of racism or sense they were trying to veil the origins of their music. I can only imagine there might have been a bit of jealousy in some black circles that these skinny English kids could be so successful playing such similar music when many black artist were struggling to survive. But I also believe that any of the artists who actually met of worked with the Stones could sense that they truly adored the artists they were so influenced by and accepted what they were doing because of it. Certainly the ones who directly benefited from their efforts and probably the ones who knew they were benefiting indirectly.

I loved the parts of Keith's book where he talks about touring in the South and heading to the juke joints across the tracks at night to listen to the great music and mingle with the black people. Sounds like they had a blast and were accepted by those people. somehow I can't imagine someone like Elvis doing the same thing. lol

Quote
Naturalust
It was all before my time but weren't artist's like Elvis Presley (Keith's 1st 45RPM) the ones truly responsible for the exploitation of black music in a way that the Stones never were. I remember reading somewhere about Col Parker specifically trying to make Elvis a white artist who played black music but never really heard about those guys giving much back to the black artists they stole the style from. I might be wrong, don't know that much about Elvis.

It seemed to me that the Stones were doing it for all the right reasons, a true love and respect for the black music and not a hint of racism or sense they were trying to veil the origins of their music. I can only imagine there might have been a bit of jealousy in some black circles that these skinny English kids could be so successful playing such similar music when many black artist were struggling to survive. But I also believe that any of the artists who actually met of worked with the Stones could sense that they truly adored the artists they were so influenced by and accepted what they were doing because of it. Certainly the ones who directly benefited from their efforts and probably the ones who knew they were benefiting indirectly.

I loved the parts of Keith's book where he talks about touring in the South and heading to the juke joints across the tracks at night to listen to the great music and mingle with the black people. Sounds like they had a blast and were accepted by those people. somehow I can't imagine someone like Elvis doing the same thing. lol

yes, i think that's exactly right.

as i think about this more, there is an excellent BB King documentary on Netflix or HBO (i posted about it when it came out). it has extensive interviews with BB. he mentions it how important the Stones having him open for them in 1969 was for his livelihood as a touring artist.

here is the bb king doc (It's called "the life of riley," riley being bb's real last name)

[www.hulu.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-22 04:03 by Turner68.

Thanks, everyone--some great suggestions for my reading and viewing pleasure; 'preciate it!

An interesting question that arises from all this is, was racism so prevalent in American society in the 50's and 60's that we required white artists to play black music to us before we could truly accept it as great stuff? It seems so odd to me but it seems that was exactly the case. And if that was the case were the Stones exploiting that element of racism to make their careers?

I guess you could say they were throwing the music out in the face of racism in order to say look you stupid people this is the real deal, but you could also say there was something wrong in capitalizing on racist values. I don't think the Stones themselves have a racist bone in their bodies but in a larger cultural context, you can almost say that racism made their careers.

Buddy Guy told of how he had spoken with Howlin’ Wolf after the show. “We talked about it later. He said about how the man next door don’t know who I am – and here’s some British kids from thousands of miles away”.

“I know he was proud of what happened cause as far as the record companies or the news media or anything, we were all ignored until those kids came in.”

[everyrecordtellsastory.com]

Quote
Naturalust
An interesting question that arises from all this is, was racism so prevalent in American society in the 50's and 60's that we required white artists to play black music to us before we could truly accept it as great stuff? It seems so odd to me but it seems that was exactly the case. And if that was the case were the Stones exploiting that element of racism to make their careers?

I guess you could say they were throwing the music out in the face of racism in order to say look you stupid people this is the real deal, but you could also say there was something wrong in capitalizing on racist values. I don't think the Stones themselves have a racist bone in their bodies but in a larger cultural context, you can almost say that racism made their careers.

I think that's very much true, NL, and I also think it's true that The Stones themselves don't have a racist bone in their bodies. Racism is ridiculously ingrained and pernicious in the U.S.--we still see examples of it every day. But I don't think it was in the calculus of The Stones to think "hey, we've got an oppty here--let's make black music ok for white people!' I think they just dug the music, found it "authentic" (to borrow from another current thread), and wanted to turn people on to it.

In a perfect world, Muddy and Howling Wolf and Bo Diddley and Robert Johnson and many others would have been far wealthier and more celebrated men than they actually were. That's one of the reasons I started this thread: if I were one of those dudes, I can TOTALLY imagine myself being partly pleased by what bands like The Stones were doing, but also partly resentful that it took them to get people to listen to MY music. Just human nature, I think. Again, none of this is the fault of Mick, Keith, and the boys. I just think it's an interesting topic, given the importance of this music to the very existence of this band we love.

I came across a great quote from Mick J the other day, from 1968:

"What's the point in listening to us doing `I'm a King Bee' when you can hear Slim Harpo doing it?"

By this time, of course, The Stones had written TONS of classic songs of their own, some very blues-based, others not so much. And although there might be a bit of false modesty in Mick's words, I think they reflect a spirit of tribute (that also runs through CROSSEYED HEART, for example) toward the music they all fell in love with.

It would be nice, though, to hear the perspective of some black fans of The Stones, or to hear how aware young black people today are of this history and what their attitudes toward it are.

My favorite version of Sam Cooke's 'Good Times' have always been The Stones one from -65 and out of our heads , until I yesterday listened to Aretha Franklins version from her -67-album 'I never loved a man the way I love you'....that's what I call a really brilliant cover..It's time for at least me to start listen to American Black Music for real....

2 1 2 0

Quote
LongBeachArena72

Quote
Turner68

Quote
LongBeachArena72

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, my friend, a lot of your questions will be answered properly if you bothered to read about this band, it's reception in the US, all the blues greats they toured with in England and how they built relationships, all the musicians from bands you mentioned here who toured with/wanted to play with the Stones/Stones side projects etc. etc.

Also, read about Keith's charity work/buying equipment for poor black musicians who once were big names.

I feel that you're throwing a torch you don't know quite how to light up here...

I've read a lot about the band, DP. I guess I haven't read enough. Didn't know the Muddy painting story now don't know about how black musicians really felt about the success The Stones had recording their music. Will try harder.

I don't know what you mean about the torch. I don't know what the answers are to the questions I posed in my original post. I offered some of my opinions and I was hoping to solicit some opinions and information from others. I'll try to up my game next time.

have you read stanley booth's book about the stones? it talks about this topic at length.

i've read the book on the 69 tour--is that the one? yes, there was good material there about bb king and ike & tina. but i've also heard ike diss the stones (especially mick) unmercifully. maybe i'll go back and give it another read-through ...

Sorry, LongBeach, didn't mean to give you a hard time here.

Many of your questions are valid and also interesting. Maybe I read your post too quickly, but at first glance it seemed you had most of the conclusions already, maybe based on a slight lack of knowledge.

Of course young british kids didn't start playing the blues just to honor those cats, but they sure knew how to pay them back just a little later.

And you might be right about the black audience not being particularly fond of the Stones. But later in the 60s we see footage of all types of audiences on Stones concerts. The black musicians loved the Stones. Ike as well, even though he could be pretty unstable at times There is a nice story about Mac and Mick visiting Ike in his studio in 77/78 in Mac's book. That one is highly recommended, btw.

Well, as a young black Stones fan (early 20s) I can definitely say this: when my other black friend and myself went to see the Stones in June, I think besides us and another lady we were the only black people we saw. Now of course, there were probably more I didn't see but I'm willing to say that probably at least 90% of the audience were white.

I'm just guessing here but I think blues music for most people, not just blacks, seems very archaic and it's just not as popular as R&B, soul music, and rap among black people, especially young black people. It seems that black people have moved away from the blues in popularity and moved onto other types of music. I think if anyone were to learn and be exposed to the blues then there's no doubt that they may be introduced to the Stones and other similar bands. I watched Blues in America documentary and though the Stones weren't really featured, they were apart of the story and it seems that they are credited as starting the resurgence of blues music in 60s. From what the documentary said, blues music was already "dying" by that time and thanks to the Stones, it was reborn.

I can't say whether or not the Stones have more black fans than our current rock bands. Maybe it was the change of sound by the band? Or maybe certain music appeals more to whites than blacks? Nothing wrong with that but it could explain why there are fewer black fans of the Stones and rock bands in general.

Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites (for the white audience) from Elvis Presley on down. Look at rap/hip-hop - it took the Beastie Boys and Eminem to truly breakthrough with the white audience.

Quote
LongBeachArena72
...The Stones have over the years created racial controversy ("Brown Sugar," "Some Girls," some of Mick's vocal deliveries...

Which vocal deliveries in particular?

.....

Olly.

Quote
stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites

Except for jazz music.

It's a bit surprising when people are wondering whether The Stones appeal to African American audiences given that most young people have no idea who the referenced blues artists are/were and have no interest. Most young people in my high school classes recognize The Stones because of a popular song that referenced Mick. As far as "whitening" the musci, I believe Pat Boone was the most notorious; Elvis was a poor kid who sang what he heard. We were in Memphis a few years ago and many of the African American teens we talked to (or listened to) had more in common with the young poor Elvis than middle class Dr. King.