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Koen

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites

Except for jazz music.

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Koen
Hey, I wasn't born yet then!

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mr_dja

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Koen

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites

Except for jazz music.

You need to do some homework, Koen. Start with Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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Olly

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LongBeachArena72
...The Stones have over the years created racial controversy ("Brown Sugar," "Some Girls," some of Mick's vocal deliveries...

Which vocal deliveries in particular?

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abc890
Well, as a young black Stones fan (early 20s) I can definitely say this: when my other black friend and myself went to see the Stones in June, I think besides us and another lady we were the only black people we saw. Now of course, there were probably more I didn't see but I'm willing to say that probably at least 90% of the audience were white.

I'm just guessing here but I think blues music for most people, not just blacks, seems very archaic and it's just not as popular as R&B, soul music, and rap among black people, especially young black people. It seems that black people have moved away from the blues in popularity and moved onto other types of music. I think if anyone were to learn and be exposed to the blues then there's no doubt that they may be introduced to the Stones and other similar bands. I watched Blues in America documentary and though the Stones weren't really featured, they were apart of the story and it seems that they are credited as starting the resurgence of blues music in 60s. From what the documentary said, blues music was already "dying" by that time and thanks to the Stones, it was reborn.

I can't say whether or not the Stones have more black fans than our current rock bands. Maybe it was the change of sound by the band? Or maybe certain music appeals more to whites than blacks? Nothing wrong with that but it could explain why there are fewer black fans of the Stones and rock bands in general.

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Turner68

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mr_dja

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Koen

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites

Except for jazz music.

You need to do some homework, Koen. Start with Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman.

Peace,
Mr DJA

i think it's awesome he didn't realize this. it means that society has corrected itself to give the original jazz musicians the credit they deserve. i would love it if people went right to chuck berry when they thought of rock-n-roll, rather than learning about him through bands like the stones. i'm sure the stones would too.

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mr_dja

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Turner68

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mr_dja

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Koen

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites

Except for jazz music.

You need to do some homework, Koen. Start with Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman.

Peace,
Mr DJA

i think it's awesome he didn't realize this. it means that society has corrected itself to give the original jazz musicians the credit they deserve. i would love it if people went right to chuck berry when they thought of rock-n-roll, rather than learning about him through bands like the stones. i'm sure the stones would too.

I'll agree to disagree with most of your post. How it is awesome that someone didn't know about Miller, Dorsey & Goodman is beyond my grasp. I'd think that they were missing out on a bunch of great music if they missed out on those guys.

You yourself are actually missing out on some pretty good rock & roll if you stop searching at Chuck Berry. You do realize that, even Chuck was influenced by the people who came before him, don't you? I'd recommend looking for some Big Joe Turner & Louis Jordan if I were you. Also, contact IORR's own Rockman as he is a "posting encyclopedia" when it comes to early rock & roll music. I thought I had a good handle on the history until I started seeing some of his posts.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites (for the white audience) from Elvis Presley on down. Look at rap/hip-hop - it took the Beastie Boys and Eminem to truly breakthrough with the white audience.

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Rockman

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Rockman
SATISFACTION - The Rolling Stones photographs of Gered Mankowitz

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Olly
Curious as to how the Stones have 'pay[ed] back' black musicians.

What are you referring to?

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LongBeachArena72
There has been a lot of discussion hereabouts recently about The Stones and black music. Some things that we all appear to agree on:

--The band began primarily out of their genuine and oft-expressed love for black American blues music
--They created exposure for many of those artists that those artists wouldn't have otherwise had
--The blues musicians the band idolized probably profited financially in some way from this exposure, though it's unlikely that many of the (primarily) white teenagers who got into The Stones actually bought a lot of Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters records
--The Stones have embraced other (primarily) black musical genres, as well (i.e., reggae) and have always (to my knowledge) championed equal rights and fairness (one of the reasons I was so disappointed with Keith's recent remarks on hip-hop was because they stood in such opposition to his band's historical love for and support of black music)

Now, some observations of mine, that may be less universally agreed-upon:

--The Stones have never been particularly popular amongst black Americans (in fairness, few "rock" bands have been)
--It's unclear exactly how many of the black American blues artists really felt about The Stones; you can find testimonials; you can also find examples of resentment
--The Stones have over the years created racial controversy ("Brown Sugar," "Some Girls," some of Mick's vocal deliveries, e.g.)

I know there is a scholarly book-length manuscript waiting to be written about the band's complex relationship with black America in general, and black music in particular. But, we can pipe off here on this board in the meantime. What is your position regarding the band and black America or black music?

For example, much has been made of the "roll" in "rock'n'roll" when discussing The Stones. Do--or did--The Stones really sound "black," in the rhythmic sense that most people mean when they emphasize the "roll"? I would posit that anyone who thinks The Stones sound black hasn't heard Parliament/Funkadelic, James Brown, or The Meters, but is there a sense in which they do?

In 1965, black author, critic, and poet Leroi Jones wrote:

"What is the difference between the Beatles, Stones etc, and Minstrelry? Minstrels never convinced anybody they were black, either."

That's probably true ... but does it matter? Did The Stones' appropriation of the musical styles of black American musicians somehow represent an exploitative take-the-money-and-run approach ... or was it a loving tribute?

For the purposes of full disclosure, I'm about as WASP-y as you can get and so in my opinion my views on these issues are going to be FAR less interesting than those of any black posters who may be on this board.

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stonesrule
I highly recommend FEEL LIKE GOING HOME and LOST HIGHWAY, both by
Peter Guralnick, who really knows his stuff. Both books will be out
in EBook format later this year.

Guralnick is one of the few writers who got close to Muddy and other blues greats.

Don't forget to read up on and listen to Son House.

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teleblaster
Son House - particularly early Son House - is really deep blues as she should be played. He was the real deal.

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LongBeachArena72

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stewedandkeefed
Virtually every genre of music that has originated in black America has been popularized by whites (for the white audience) from Elvis Presley on down. Look at rap/hip-hop - it took the Beastie Boys and Eminem to truly breakthrough with the white audience.

I think that while this may be true, it might also require a bit of an asterisk.

In the blues field, in spite of the exposure given the black "originals" by bands like The Stones, those original musicians never topped the charts, in most cases never got rich, never became as popular as the white musicians who "popularized" their music.

In hip-hop and jazz I don't think this is the case.

While it's true that Eminem and The Beasties may have "pushed" rap over into mainstream acceptance by whites, the men and women who over time sold the most records and got the most critical accolades were, generally speaking, black. It's hard to believe that Public Enemy, N.W.A., De La Soul, Cypress Hill, Dr Dre, The Wu-Tang Clan, Nas, 2Pac, Jay-Z, Outkast, and Kanye West wouldn't have been wildly successful had they not gotten a boost from The Beasties and Eminem.

I think it's a slightly less clear cut case in jazz. It's possible that if you did an exhaustive review of the jazz charts over the past 75 years you might find that white artists continued to outsell black artists. But I think it's also safe to say that there are FAR more black jazz-men and -women who are commonly thought to be in the highest levels of the music's critical pantheon than there are white musicians.

I just don't think that black artists in those two fields continued to labor in the kind of obscurity that black blues musicians did.

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PhillyFAN

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LongBeachArena72
There has been a lot of discussion hereabouts recently about The Stones and black music. Some things that we all appear to agree on:

--The band began primarily out of their genuine and oft-expressed love for black American blues music
--They created exposure for many of those artists that those artists wouldn't have otherwise had
--The blues musicians the band idolized probably profited financially in some way from this exposure, though it's unlikely that many of the (primarily) white teenagers who got into The Stones actually bought a lot of Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters records
--The Stones have embraced other (primarily) black musical genres, as well (i.e., reggae) and have always (to my knowledge) championed equal rights and fairness (one of the reasons I was so disappointed with Keith's recent remarks on hip-hop was because they stood in such opposition to his band's historical love for and support of black music)

Now, some observations of mine, that may be less universally agreed-upon:

--The Stones have never been particularly popular amongst black Americans (in fairness, few "rock" bands have been)
--It's unclear exactly how many of the black American blues artists really felt about The Stones; you can find testimonials; you can also find examples of resentment
--The Stones have over the years created racial controversy ("Brown Sugar," "Some Girls," some of Mick's vocal deliveries, e.g.)

I know there is a scholarly book-length manuscript waiting to be written about the band's complex relationship with black America in general, and black music in particular. But, we can pipe off here on this board in the meantime. What is your position regarding the band and black America or black music?

For example, much has been made of the "roll" in "rock'n'roll" when discussing The Stones. Do--or did--The Stones really sound "black," in the rhythmic sense that most people mean when they emphasize the "roll"? I would posit that anyone who thinks The Stones sound black hasn't heard Parliament/Funkadelic, James Brown, or The Meters, but is there a sense in which they do?

In 1965, black author, critic, and poet Leroi Jones wrote:

"What is the difference between the Beatles, Stones etc, and Minstrelry? Minstrels never convinced anybody they were black, either."

That's probably true ... but does it matter? Did The Stones' appropriation of the musical styles of black American musicians somehow represent an exploitative take-the-money-and-run approach ... or was it a loving tribute?

For the purposes of full disclosure, I'm about as WASP-y as you can get and so in my opinion my views on these issues are going to be FAR less interesting than those of any black posters who may be on this board.

Hi Long Beach,

Interesting questions. Here are my thoughts. I have always dug the Stones since 1969. Most of my friends did, especially in comparison to the Beatles during the early times.Still wondering why I like Brown Sugar. It is racist and sexist but it gets my my toe tapping and finger snapping. I am positive the Stones are not racist. Just young at the time they wrote those lyrics about interracial sex. Both Micks have black children. Most African Americans during that time were living through the civil rights movement, black power movements, etc. African Americans were not interested in the blues or having the blues. It was a time for fresh new music. Motown had emerged and taken the country by storm. It was music blacks and whites enjoyed and you could dance to it.Blues music was dying by that time and older people that were familiar with the blues genre would still listen. A little before Motown was Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddly and after that music became more upbeat and appealed to young people that found the blues depressing. I believe the Stones loved that music and wanted to share it with the rest of the world that did not know what they were missing. Black folks had enough of being blue. It was sort of old and what their parents listened to. As times change so does music. In 2015 in Black communities that has changed. Personally I do not like rap or hip hop. IN the beginning when people were making political and social commentary i did enjoy some of it. Blues has turned into R&B with talentless people that no longer play acoustic musical instruments and producer made artists that have little or no talent but can sell millions of records by mass media marketing. There is still jazz an original form of American music that all races agree on and love!