No hurt feelings, honest.

I'm away to listen to Between The Buttons whilst having a nice, relaxing hot bath.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
<I can say that not even 0,0001 percent of Keith's licks in there reminds me of Taylor.> <DP>

I disagree. IMO Keith and Mick T are closer than kissing cousins here.
We need a Score and make a melodic analysis.

The last thing I want to state is that Keith is trying to copy Taylor.
It happened spontaneously, and its's Keith who deserves the medal.
My initial question was how it would have sounded when Taylor's slide would have gone troughout the song as he starts very promising, and it's a pity he vanished.

It Would be great if we got 2 versions.

Madness, imo. Keith took on the role, but sounded nowhere near Taylor. Medal? Keith have played like this on lots of songs.

Well, I'm curious, because I don't know those songs. So please name them. Thát seems a fair question to me.

Oh yes you do. Here´s a lovely collection from all eras:

Winning Ugly (Some of the licks are even recycled on DW)
Bitch
Carol (First album)
When The Whip Comes Down (Live 81)
She Said Yeah
HTW
Let Me Go (especially live in 81)
Luxury
Slave (for even more licks, check out the Virgin release)
I Just Wanna Make Love To You (first album)
Around And Around (Love You Live)
Fight
Fancyman Blues
Fingerprint File
Star Star
Sympathy For The Devil (live TOTA)

This list could easily be doubled or tripled.

For an entire night of this kind of playing, check out the Checkerboard Lounge show with Muddy from 81. Keith is taking on solos all night. Great show.

I thought the Taylorites were more concerned with tone and vibrato than the tempo. Seemingly, you are mistaking Keith´s fast playing for copying Taylor. Remember my video "Keith´s fastest moments" here earlier. He can do it if he wants do. He always could. Some of his fastest solos are from the debut album.

Of course it's not about being fast, though Keith never was that fast. But that's not the issue here. I know quite some examples you gave (not all of them, but enough). They are all totally different from this guitar part we're talking about. None of them is Tayloresque in any way to my ears. But the S&C soloing is.

Short And Curlies isn´t either, and I´m gonna tell you why:

- Keith is taking on Taylor´s role and plays "extended" solos, without Taylor´s trademark - the fluidity.

- Keith doesn´t use Taylor´s usual double stops or combinations. He uses his own single-string Berry-approach (known from countless other stones songs), and he has many stops that Taylor wouldn´t have in an ongoing solo. Hence, he plays more fills than counter-melodies, lead lines or extended themes.

- Most importantly, Keith has a much harder "touch" than Taylor on every note. Everything is more staccato.

- The combinations that could have been Taylor-esque in Short And Curlies are not that prominent in the mix, and serves as a kind of rhythm guitar (these are almost the very same licks that eventually would wind up on Winning Ugly on DW - more extended there).

- Finally, I think you are confusing the role, the function and the room Keith takes here with playing style, sound, notes and how the output works out in the end.

If it isn´t too much to ask, I´m interested in your musical analysis of why this is a blueprint/copy of Taylor. After all, you seem so certain so let´s have it.

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kleermaker
Then they got Taylor, knowing very well how good and melodic he was. Big problem for Keith, but not so much for Jagger. So we see a very short list with excellent Taylor contributions on studio albums, mainly in cooperation with Jagger. On stage Keith couldn't prevent Taylor from playing, though he tried, as we can see, lips reading, on L&G for instance. Taylor got even more room in 1973, undoubtedly supported by Jagger, but not welcomed by Keith. Then 1974 came and Taylor was marginalized more and more.

Why is there this idea that Keith felt "threatened" in any way by Taylor?
Why would the main songwriter, musical leader of a band that was the greatest in the world at the time feel in any way threatened by a great lead guitar player (which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs), because he played better solos? Where are this magnificent ideas that he had that Keith was so scared of? "Marginalized" in 1974? He plays an endless solo on Time Waits For No One. If his idea was to do that awful "fusion" stuff he did with Jack Bruce later, then thank God that Keith didn't give him a lot of room.

1 fingerprint file
2 tumbling dice
3 coming down again
4 live with me
5 star star
6 let it rock
7 shake your hips
8 sweet black angel
9 i got the blues
10 country honk

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His Majesty
No hurt feelings, honest.

I'm away to listen to Between The Buttons whilst having a nice, relaxing hot bath.

Actually a very good CD - you can say it's an underrated CD, that should have gotten a much better reception in the beginning. Probabaly like Exile - with time people like it bette and better - it matures in peoples ears.
I like Complicated very much. Jagger sings great, just another side of his singing. The other ones are also great: backstreet girl, she smiled sweetly, my obsession, all sold out.....

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His Majesty
Crying about Keith supposedly trying to play like Taylor on an album filler is funny though.

Everything i've said is IMO of course, like everything in this thread.

Imo this Taylor Richards talk about S&C is like jerking off:
Some think about their wife, others don't.

And let's not forget the fantastic solos by Mick when he toured with Alvin Lee in '81. How many guitarists can stand next to Alvin ? Not many. Much respect to Mick from Alvin and Alvin from Mick and you can feel it in the songs they play.

If Taylor needed Richards so much, why did they choose him in the first place, its obvious. He was one hell of a guitar player and the Stones new it, its silly to say Keith had to teach him anything. I mean how many Chuck Berry style licks does a man need, thats why they played so many Berry songs live, it gave Keith something to do.

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lapaz62
If Taylor needed Richards so much, why did they choose him in the first place, its obvious. He was one hell of a guitar player and the Stones new it, its silly to say Keith had to teach him anything. I mean how many Chuck Berry style licks does a man need, thats why they played so many Berry songs live, it gave Keith something to do.

He didn´t have anything to do during SFM, BS, TD, ADTL or JJF???

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stones78

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kleermaker
Then they got Taylor, knowing very well how good and melodic he was. Big problem for Keith, but not so much for Jagger. So we see a very short list with excellent Taylor contributions on studio albums, mainly in cooperation with Jagger. On stage Keith couldn't prevent Taylor from playing, though he tried, as we can see, lips reading, on L&G for instance. Taylor got even more room in 1973, undoubtedly supported by Jagger, but not welcomed by Keith. Then 1974 came and Taylor was marginalized more and more.

Why is there this idea that Keith felt "threatened" in any way by Taylor?
Why would the main songwriter, musical leader of a band that was the greatest in the world at the time feel in any way threatened by a great lead guitar player (which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs), because he played better solos? Where are this magnificent ideas that he had that Keith was so scared of? "Marginalized" in 1974? He plays an endless solo on Time Waits For No One. If his idea was to do that awful "fusion" stuff he did with Jack Bruce later, then thank God that Keith didn't give him a lot of room.

Not only did Taylor play the nice TWFNO-solo. He played fantastic stuff on If You Can´t Rock Me (surprisingly, no one has mentioned this solo as one of their favourites!), a great extended solo + licks on Dance Little Sister, fantastic bass which is very promintent in the mix on Fingerprint File, as well as an extended solo on If You Really Want To Be My Friend.

Marginalized? ROTFLOL! kleermaker, seemingly you just want to stir things up. Either that, or you´re just making up stories as you go here.

I can´t believe that I fall for the temptation of commenting this, but for the young fans and the coming fans who have yet to discover the greatest rock´n´roll band on earth, this false history-telling needs to be corrected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-29 13:50 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
Keith wanted to sound like Taylor, so he played his part. <Kleermaker>

What a load of bollocks. <Mathijs>

Well, Richards stated "I learned a lot from Mick Taylor".
Maybe Keith got inspired on "Short and Curlies", as his playing sounds "Tayloreske"
That's a positive development...I don't see "bollocks" here.

IMO, the only studio recording where Keith sounds a bit like Taylor is the very ending his solo on Star Star.

Live, he did pick up some stuff off Taylor, especially on the 75/76 tour (Fingerprint File and some fills on HTW). But it's very, very subtle. So what kleermaker says is really stretching it a bit too far. If I know him right it was done a bit toungue in cheek

Keith sounds more Tayloreske on Short and Curlies than on any other song. Not amazing that for instance Pepganzo here and some commenter on YouTube thought it was Taylor soloing over the song. But it's Richards imitating Taylor, building on the little Taylor part in the beginning of the song. Keith was very jealous of Taylor. Especially in the studio he hardly gave him any room. It's not accidental that Taylor's best performances are without Keith, on his songs with Jagger (Sway, Moonlight Mile, Winter, 100 Years Ago, Time Waits For No One). That remark of Keith in his book, saying he 'composed' some songs especially for Taylor's guitar are nonsense. I would say: name them, those songs. I don't know them.

I'm rather sure that the main reason Taylor left was Richards' behaviour. Jagger has also stated that Keith was a reason for Taylor to leave (the Stones scholars here certainly know which quote I mean). Anyway, read Nico Zentgraf's site and his data, then you can see how Taylor steadily was pushed out of the group and replaced with Wood (It's only rock 'n' roll and other stuff). Taylor pulled the right conclusion by leaving, even if I'm sorry he did. But he had no choice.

Keith is on both Sway and Time Waits For No One, and you know that well. Why couldn't he have written those tracks with Taylor's solo guitar in mind? It's only your speculation talking, kleermaker.

As for Keith sounding Taylor-esque on Short And Curlies I must say this is downright wrong, musically speaking. It just makes no musical sense, as Keith just rambles thru his usual blues licks here, without any attempt of the fluidity that makes Taylor's signature.

Personally, I think it's more likely that Keith played his guitar track first on this one. While listening, they decided that the song needed more guitar in the beginning, and Taylor recorded it. He is prominent in the intro, and plays a low-key rhythm guitar throughout the track. This is just my theory, though - I'm not claiming having the truth here, as you do.

I'm also guessing that Pepganzo just liked the playing on that track, and assumed it was Taylor, since Keith played very few solos in the Taylor-era. Hardly any "evidence" of the guitar track sounding Taylor-esque, if you ask me.

It would be interesting to see if you can give me one valid musical argument on why Keith's licks sound like Taylor here - and especially how you concluded with this rather conspiratic theory.

please excuse my interfering in your discussion, but both songs were, according to Taylor, written by Jagger.

Come on guys, whe are talking about the greatest R&R band in the world.
Music is a universal language. Everbody has his favourite era, opinions and perception. In the end everybody is right. We should't take it so hard!







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-29 14:31 by Amsterdamned.

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Rocky Dijon
10.TOPS - TATTOO YOU

Tops and I Don't Know Why are 2 of their biggest/greatest underated gems from their catalogue....Tops is absolute magic.

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DandelionPowderman

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stones78

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kleermaker
Then they got Taylor, knowing very well how good and melodic he was. Big problem for Keith, but not so much for Jagger. So we see a very short list with excellent Taylor contributions on studio albums, mainly in cooperation with Jagger. On stage Keith couldn't prevent Taylor from playing, though he tried, as we can see, lips reading, on L&G for instance. Taylor got even more room in 1973, undoubtedly supported by Jagger, but not welcomed by Keith. Then 1974 came and Taylor was marginalized more and more.

Why is there this idea that Keith felt "threatened" in any way by Taylor?
Why would the main songwriter, musical leader of a band that was the greatest in the world at the time feel in any way threatened by a great lead guitar player (which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs), because he played better solos? Where are this magnificent ideas that he had that Keith was so scared of? "Marginalized" in 1974? He plays an endless solo on Time Waits For No One. If his idea was to do that awful "fusion" stuff he did with Jack Bruce later, then thank God that Keith didn't give him a lot of room.

Not only did Taylor play the nice TWFNO-solo. He played fantastic stuff on If You Can´t Rock Me (surprisingly, no one has mentioned this solo as one of their favourites!), a great extended solo + licks on Dance Little Sister, fantastic bass which is very promintent in the mix on Fingerprint File, as well as an extended solo on If You Really Want To Be My Friend.

Marginalized? ROTFLOL! kleermaker, seemingly you just want to stir things up. Either that, or you´re just making up stories as you go here.

I can´t believe that I fall for the temptation of commenting this, but for the young fans and the coming fans who have yet to discover the greatest rock´n´roll band on earth, this false history-telling needs to be corrected.

Have a listen to Mayall's Blues from Laurel Canyon (made in three days) and you hear more Taylor than during his Stones tenure from Let it Bleed to IORR (the studio albums). It's, btw, a masterpiece.

If You Can't Rock Me starts really nice, but then it's disappointing and we only can hear a (primitive) Keith guitar that makes the song melodically uninteresting.

Yes, he was underused in the studio. In a certain, strange way I agree with our friend Mattijs that Taylor's presence on Exile is disappointing. When he's present, we hear the best of Exile.

Only on stage he's used well, more and more during the years and most in 1973 (resulting in by far the best the live Rolling Stones bootleg ever: 'Brussels Affair, def. edition' (including some London etc. stuff as well).

As for S&C: your technical explanation doesn't do the trick. If you would ask 100 unknowing Stones fans who's playing the soloing over that song, 99 will say it's Taylor. Check it out. Even I myself doubted in the beginning, and my ears are quite good, especially in melody (according to a objective BBC listening test).

As for only Jagger writing TWFNO, Sway and Winter: that's nonsense. It was at least a cooperation. Gimme that Taylor quote in which he says he had nothing to do with the writing of those songs at all and even then that quote will be hardly credible. We all know Taylor had a songwriting credit issue with J&R. Well, concerning what songs do you think? Or is Taylor contradicting himself in a scandalously way? I don't buy that.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-31 00:47 by Max'sKansasCity.

my top 3

1 love in vain gyyo
2 you gotta move any concert
3 blind willie mc tell with bits of all along the awtchtower & layla any show

waiting to hera them again live

To me MT's finest moment is on Tumbling Dice in Brussels I love that version.

In the Studio - CYHMK or Time Waits For No One

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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stones78

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kleermaker
Then they got Taylor, knowing very well how good and melodic he was. Big problem for Keith, but not so much for Jagger. So we see a very short list with excellent Taylor contributions on studio albums, mainly in cooperation with Jagger. On stage Keith couldn't prevent Taylor from playing, though he tried, as we can see, lips reading, on L&G for instance. Taylor got even more room in 1973, undoubtedly supported by Jagger, but not welcomed by Keith. Then 1974 came and Taylor was marginalized more and more.

Why is there this idea that Keith felt "threatened" in any way by Taylor?
Why would the main songwriter, musical leader of a band that was the greatest in the world at the time feel in any way threatened by a great lead guitar player (which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs), because he played better solos? Where are this magnificent ideas that he had that Keith was so scared of? "Marginalized" in 1974? He plays an endless solo on Time Waits For No One. If his idea was to do that awful "fusion" stuff he did with Jack Bruce later, then thank God that Keith didn't give him a lot of room.

Not only did Taylor play the nice TWFNO-solo. He played fantastic stuff on If You Can´t Rock Me (surprisingly, no one has mentioned this solo as one of their favourites!), a great extended solo + licks on Dance Little Sister, fantastic bass which is very promintent in the mix on Fingerprint File, as well as an extended solo on If You Really Want To Be My Friend.

Marginalized? ROTFLOL! kleermaker, seemingly you just want to stir things up. Either that, or you´re just making up stories as you go here.

I can´t believe that I fall for the temptation of commenting this, but for the young fans and the coming fans who have yet to discover the greatest rock´n´roll band on earth, this false history-telling needs to be corrected.

Have a listen to Mayall's Blues from Laurel Canyon (made in three days) and you hear more Taylor than during his Stones tenure from Let it Bleed to IORR (the studio albums). It's, btw, a masterpiece.

If You Can't Rock Me starts really nice, but then it's disappointing and we only can hear a (primitive) Keith guitar that makes the song melodically uninteresting.

Yes, he was underused in the studio. In a certain, strange way I agree with our friend Mattijs that Taylor's presence on Exile is disappointing. When he's present, we hear the best of Exile.

Only on stage he's used well, more and more during the years and most in 1973 (resulting in by far the best the live Rolling Stones bootleg ever: 'Brussels Affair, def. edition' (including some London etc. stuff as well).

As for S&C: your technical explanation doesn't do the trick. If you would ask 100 unknowing Stones fans who's playing the soloing over that song, 99 will say it's Taylor. Check it out. Even I myself doubted in the beginning, and my ears are quite good, especially in melody (according to a objective BBC listening test).

As for only Jagger writing TWFNO, Sway and Winter: that's nonsense. It was at least a cooperation. Gimme that Taylor quote in which he says he had nothing to do with the writing of those songs at all and even then that quote will be hardly credible. We all know Taylor had a songwriting credit issue with J&R. Well, concerning what songs do you think? Or is Taylor contradicting himself in a scandalously way? I don't buy that.

???

Did I ever say anything about who wrote those songs? I wasn´t around, I couldn´t possible know. You were obviously there.

Since the suject already is up for grabs, I´ll give you my opinion on it:

I´ve only seen Taylor claim that he co-wrote Time Waits For No One, not Winter and Sway.

No doubt about Taylor making a great contribution putting those songs together, but it´s a long way from inventing a solo or some licks (brilliant as they might be) to be writing verses, middle eights and choruses. As history has proven, Taylor is a brilliant solo guitarist, not a songwriter capable of writing stellar songs like Sway and Time Waits For No One (Winter isn´t one of my favourites).

This is just my personal opinion, as I wasn´t around. It would be nice if you could share your knowledge here, kleermaker - since you obviously know that Taylor wrote those songs.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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stones78

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kleermaker
Then they got Taylor, knowing very well how good and melodic he was. Big problem for Keith, but not so much for Jagger. So we see a very short list with excellent Taylor contributions on studio albums, mainly in cooperation with Jagger. On stage Keith couldn't prevent Taylor from playing, though he tried, as we can see, lips reading, on L&G for instance. Taylor got even more room in 1973, undoubtedly supported by Jagger, but not welcomed by Keith. Then 1974 came and Taylor was marginalized more and more.

Why is there this idea that Keith felt "threatened" in any way by Taylor?
Why would the main songwriter, musical leader of a band that was the greatest in the world at the time feel in any way threatened by a great lead guitar player (which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs), because he played better solos? Where are this magnificent ideas that he had that Keith was so scared of? "Marginalized" in 1974? He plays an endless solo on Time Waits For No One. If his idea was to do that awful "fusion" stuff he did with Jack Bruce later, then thank God that Keith didn't give him a lot of room.

Not only did Taylor play the nice TWFNO-solo. He played fantastic stuff on If You Can´t Rock Me (surprisingly, no one has mentioned this solo as one of their favourites!), a great extended solo + licks on Dance Little Sister, fantastic bass which is very promintent in the mix on Fingerprint File, as well as an extended solo on If You Really Want To Be My Friend.

Marginalized? ROTFLOL! kleermaker, seemingly you just want to stir things up. Either that, or you´re just making up stories as you go here.

I can´t believe that I fall for the temptation of commenting this, but for the young fans and the coming fans who have yet to discover the greatest rock´n´roll band on earth, this false history-telling needs to be corrected.

Have a listen to Mayall's Blues from Laurel Canyon (made in three days) and you hear more Taylor than during his Stones tenure from Let it Bleed to IORR (the studio albums). It's, btw, a masterpiece.

If You Can't Rock Me starts really nice, but then it's disappointing and we only can hear a (primitive) Keith guitar that makes the song melodically uninteresting.

Yes, he was underused in the studio. In a certain, strange way I agree with our friend Mattijs that Taylor's presence on Exile is disappointing. When he's present, we hear the best of Exile.

Only on stage he's used well, more and more during the years and most in 1973 (resulting in by far the best the live Rolling Stones bootleg ever: 'Brussels Affair, def. edition' (including some London etc. stuff as well).

As for S&C: your technical explanation doesn't do the trick. If you would ask 100 unknowing Stones fans who's playing the soloing over that song, 99 will say it's Taylor. Check it out. Even I myself doubted in the beginning, and my ears are quite good, especially in melody (according to a objective BBC listening test).

As for only Jagger writing TWFNO, Sway and Winter: that's nonsense. It was at least a cooperation. Gimme that Taylor quote in which he says he had nothing to do with the writing of those songs at all and even then that quote will be hardly credible. We all know Taylor had a songwriting credit issue with J&R. Well, concerning what songs do you think? Or is Taylor contradicting himself in a scandalously way? I don't buy that.

???

Did I ever say anything about who wrote those songs? I wasn´t around, I couldn´t possible know. You were obviously there.

Since the suject already is up for grabs, I´ll give you my opinion on it:

I´ve only seen Taylor claim that he co-wrote Time Waits For No One, not Winter and Sway.

No doubt about Taylor making a great contribution putting those songs together, but it´s a long way from inventing a solo or some licks (brilliant as they might be) to be writing verses, middle eights and choruses. As history has proven, Taylor is a brilliant solo guitarist, not a songwriter capable of writing stellar songs like Sway and Time Waits For No One (Winter isn´t one of my favourites).

This is just my personal opinion, as I wasn´t around. It would be nice if you could share your knowledge here, kleermaker - since you obviously know that Taylor wrote those songs.

That was probably a response to my post (that Taylor stated that Jagger wrote these songs) wich was a response to your post (that Richards wrote the songs with Taylor in mind)

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kleermaker
Have a listen to Mayall's Blues from Laurel Canyon (made in three days) and you hear more Taylor than during his Stones tenure from Let it Bleed to IORR (the studio albums). It's, btw, a masterpiece.

If You Can't Rock Me starts really nice, but then it's disappointing and we only can hear a (primitive) Keith guitar that makes the song melodically uninteresting.

Yes, he was underused in the studio. In a certain, strange way I agree with our friend Mattijs that Taylor's presence on Exile is disappointing. When he's present, we hear the best of Exile.

Only on stage he's used well, more and more during the years and most in 1973 (resulting in by far the best the live Rolling Stones bootleg ever: 'Brussels Affair, def. edition' (including some London etc. stuff as well).

As for S&C: your technical explanation doesn't do the trick. If you would ask 100 unknowing Stones fans who's playing the soloing over that song, 99 will say it's Taylor. Check it out. Even I myself doubted in the beginning, and my ears are quite good, especially in melody (according to a objective BBC listening test).

As for only Jagger writing TWFNO, Sway and Winter: that's nonsense. It was at least a cooperation. Gimme that Taylor quote in which he says he had nothing to do with the writing of those songs at all and even then that quote will be hardly credible. We all know Taylor had a songwriting credit issue with J&R. Well, concerning what songs do you think? Or is Taylor contradicting himself in a scandalously way? I don't buy that.

"When he's present, we hear the best of Exile" Not really...not to me at least. Rocks Off, Rip This Joint, Loving Cup, Let It Loose are among the best songs and he's hardly present.

"Gimme that Taylor quote in which he says he had nothing to do with the writing of those songs at all and even then that quote will be hardly credible"
Well, then there's no point in arguing about this is it?

Of course there's more Taylor on Mayall than with the Stones, Mayall's band was at the time a blues band mainly focused on lead guitar playing, that whole album is 12-bar after 12-bar with guitar and harmonica solos. The Stones' music is based around the songs themselves, not endless guitar soloing. And since almost the only thing that Taylor could contribute to the songs was guitar solos (along with some great bass playing) you feel he's underused.

which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs

You do realize Taylor wrote most of goats head soup with Jagger, Right? I'm still confused as to why Richards recieved co-writing credits on every song on the album, when he barely even played on it!

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Nothing Mick Taylor played is better than Keith's guitar work on the studio version of Gimmie Shelter. It is the majestic, crowning glory of The Rolling Stones musical output, in the studio or live.

Probably because Taylor did not play on the studio version of Gimme Shelter. Although he did play the amazing solos on the far superior live versions in the early 70's(Philly '72 comes to mind).

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MickTaylorfan27

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Nothing Mick Taylor played is better than Keith's guitar work on the studio version of Gimmie Shelter. It is the majestic, crowning glory of The Rolling Stones musical output, in the studio or live.

Probably because Taylor did not play on the studio version of Gimme Shelter. Although he did play the amazing solos on the far superior live versions in the early 70's(Philly '72 comes to mind).

Yah don't seem to have understood my post.

Probably because Taylor did not play on the studio version of Gimme Shelter. Although he did play the amazing solos on the far superior live versions in the early 70's(Philly '72 comes to mind). <MickTaylorfan27>


My "Rolling Stones Tinnitus" contains Taylor's playing and Jagger's singing.
Thanks for the great songwriting and playing that made this possible.

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MickTaylorfan27

which is all Taylor was in the Stones, except for supposedly helping Jagger finish a couple of songs

You do realize Taylor wrote most of goats head soup with Jagger, Right? I'm still confused as to why Richards recieved co-writing credits on every song on the album, when he barely even played on it!

Huh? Where do you get this?

100 Years Ago was written by Jagger alone: "Some of the songs we used (for the album) were pretty old. 100 Years Ago was one that Mick (Jagger) had written 2 years ago and which we hadn't really got around to using before." M. Taylor

Angie was written by Keith and Mick: "I had the whole chord sequence down maybe a year ago with just the title Angie. It could have been Randy or Mangy or anything, you know, but Mick just picked up on the title and wrote a song around it." K. Richards

"I don't know. That was one of Keith's songs (laughs). I just filled in the gaps." M. Jagger

Dancing With Mr. D: "Dancing with Mr. D is my riff and Mick's lyrics. I tend to work more on riffs while Mick has finished songs." K. Richards

Starf*cker: "Starf*cker is all Mick's (song)." K. Richards

Coming Down Again is of course Keith's song.

Can You Hear The Music is Keith's riff.

Hide Your Love is Mick Jagger's song, just a studio jam.

I guess that leaves Winter and Heartbreaker, which maybe M. Taylor helped Jagger finish, but that's just a couple of songs. Can you give any quotes from anyone saying that Taylor "wrote most of goats head soup with Jagger"?

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Can you give any quotes from anyone saying that Taylor "wrote most of goats head soup with Jagger"?

No, but off the top of my head I know that Keith has co-writing credit on Winter(which was actually co-written by Mick and Mick), when he had no part in writing it, or even playing on it. So, I'm sure it's probably true for a lot of other songs too. Besides, it's well known that Keith hardly played on much of Goats Head Soup at all.

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MickTaylorfan27

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Can you give any quotes from anyone saying that Taylor "wrote most of goats head soup with Jagger"?

No, but off the top of my head I know that Keith has co-writing credit on Winter(which was actually co-written by Mick and Mick), when he had no part in writing it, or even playing on it. So, I'm sure it's probably true for a lot of other songs too. Besides, it's well known that Keith hardly played on much of Goats Head Soup at all.

So which part do you think Taylor wrote in Winter? My guess is that he made the standard guitar theme (which he plays beautifully, imo). But the song would be finished even without this theme. Please differ between songwriting and icing on an already finished cake.

So which part do you think Taylor wrote in Winter? My guess is that he made the standard guitar theme (which he plays beautifully, imo). But the song would be finished even without this theme. Please differ between songwriting and icing on an already finished cake. <DP>


He played a great guitarsolo on Winter and the same story with Olson.
Those versions where released after Taylor did his Job, and he got praised for that. What Taylor did was more than icing on the cake:
The song would never be the same without Taylor, and you know it.
Taylor took a brush and completed the painting. Songwriting doesn't create the entire song in this case, and you know it.

You start talking like Mathijs.

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Amsterdamned
So which part do you think Taylor wrote in Winter? My guess is that he made the standard guitar theme (which he plays beautifully, imo). But the song would be finished even without this theme. Please differ between songwriting and icing on an already finished cake. <DP>


He played a great guitarsolo on Winter and the same story with Olson.
Those versions where released after Taylor did his Job, and he got praised for that. What Taylor did was more than icing on the cake:
The song would never be the same without Taylor, and you know it.
Taylor took a brush and completed the painting. Songwriting doesn't create the entire song in this case, and you know it.

You start talking like Mathijs.

So do every good lead guitarist out there. But they don't claim to have written the song, only that they improved it.

Of course the song improved heavily with Taylor's contribution, no doubt about it. I'm only speaking in songwriting terms here. As a musician you should know this, Amsterdamned.

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DandelionPowderman

Quote
Amsterdamned
So which part do you think Taylor wrote in Winter? My guess is that he made the standard guitar theme (which he plays beautifully, imo). But the song would be finished even without this theme. Please differ between songwriting and icing on an already finished cake. <DP>


He played a great guitarsolo on Winter and the same story with Olson.
Those versions where released after Taylor did his Job, and he got praised for that. What Taylor did was more than icing on the cake:
The song would never be the same without Taylor, and you know it.
Taylor took a brush and completed the painting. Songwriting doesn't create the entire song in this case, and you know it.

You start talking like Mathijs.

So do every good lead guitarist out there. But they don't claim to have written the song, only that they improved it.

Of course the song improved heavily with Taylor's contribution, no doubt about it. I'm only speaking in songwriting terms here. As a musician you should know this, Amsterdamned.

Yes, I do know. And I don't give a hoot who wrote it. This topic is about Taylor's Top Ten.

Winter is based on an ordinairy I-IV progression basically, like countless other songs, and it's Imo Jagger's splendid singing and Taylor's playing that takes it to wuthering heights. And don't forget the great bass, drums and strings. The songwriting is one of the most overrated issues on this board. There's no sharp line between songwriting and the final result, unless you're an arranger. Sure Jagger and Richards came up with the most, but they never would have reached it without the rest of the band. Neither Jagger nor Richards came up with a score, and told the rest of the band exactly what to play, unless they where arrangers too, which I doubt very much.

Their solo-projects have proven this, as they never reached the greatness of the RS..And they had great session players!!
Thus it takes 5 to Tango.

No doubt someone is gonna tell me I ain't got a clue.

BTW I can Imagine lots of singers doing a great job on this song too. Listen to Carla Olsen. Or this girl band playing "Bitch". I don't state this to cut off the dicussion btw.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-30 16:03 by Amsterdamned.