Tell Me :
Talk
So if we must not reproach them soldiers/ veterans, do we then - in converse argument - have to praise them. I don't think so.
OT: But I must say: "Let's give peace a chance" and "make love not war". No soldiers need apply.
He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.
He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.
And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.
And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
How would @#$%& have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.
He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
- Donovan -
Countdown to this thread's started. Why wasn't it closed down long before?
Is that really true?
Sorry, my bad, apologies to Donovan for giving him the writing credit on that one.
a rather odd name for a war, isn't it.
I think that says it all
-------------------
Keep On Rolling
Yes. It's really true.
And "Welcome Back" kleermeker... Been a while since I've seen you around here. Hope all is well for you and yours.
Peace,
Mr DJA
You mean: 'I think it's true'.
One don't have to be a Socrates to prove you're wrong and that the assumption that all veterans have to be hailed is a wrong assumption. I just have translated Plato's dialogue 'Gorgias'. In that dialogue Socrates talks about politics and about what's right and what's wrong, using logic, by asking and answering questions, in an interesting and instructive way.
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
No. I don't mean 'I think it's true'. I'm apt to agree with you that 'one don't need to be a Socrates to prove' I'm wrong because, in my reading of my original statement, there is nothing to be deemed "right or wrong" in the complete statement that you were questioning me about.
I'll admit that the part you bolded, "all of our behalf" could be a bit ambiguous due to this being an international forum. (If I remember correctly I think you're from somewhere in Europe?) Therefore, with me being a citizen of the USA, my veterans are not necessarily your veterans. Although I try to "type clearly and articulately" when I know that many people don't use English as a primary language and even I'm not the best "grammarian", I have no doubt that things can and do get "lost in translation" from time to time. Possibly, if I had written something to the effect of: "I thank US veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on behalf of the citizens of the USA." it might not have been quite as ambiguous but it also wouldn't have said what I was trying to say. I regret daily that I didn't pay more attention in English class as a kid. I would love to have a larger vocabulary and be more articulate but, "Hey, I's doin' da' bestest dat I can."
Also, as long as I'm addressing your attempt to interpret my words with your thoughts/words, I never used the word "hailed". I used the word "thank". I would actually agree with, what I think is your point, that a statement of: "all veterans have to be hailed" is a flawed/wrong/inaccurate/not absolute statement. But that's just due to how I think the word "hailed" would be defined in that statement.
Regarding your translation of Plato's dialogue... Would I be correct in assuming that your translation was to something other than English? I love philosophy and, although I don't always understand it, love to read it, think about it, learn from it, etc. If your translation is to English and you're not trying to make a profit from it, I'd love to read it. After all... Today's always a good day to learn something new. (Surely Plato & Socrates couldn't get me on that statement, could they?)
Peace,
Mr DJA
Actually it´s become usual here to open a thread when leaving or returning the board...
Nevertheless...welcome back,my favourite board vet...
sorry..didn´t want to interrupt the debate...just couldn´t resist.
Shortfatfanny,
You can feel free to interrupt (or participate in) my debates anytime... I'm not always real sure that my side's worth listening to anyway. Plus, after that Statue of Liberty story you told, I'm willing to give you at least one mulligan! Still smiling thinking about that one. If it ever becomes appropriate to tell, I'll share a similar experience I had when I was a visitor on a Soviet military base in the former DDR (that is the old EAST Germany, right?) back in 1991. For now, we'll leave that for another time.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Looking forward to...peace to you Mr DJA
I'm sorry but this is too much. The Iraqi war was an illegal war started on false premises (there were no weapons of mass destruction). Al Qaida wasn't based in Iraq (Saddam didn't allow that). The war, that still goes on, didn't "free" the Iraqi people (the situation in Iraq is, in many ways, worse now than before the war). As I see it, the Iraqi war was a very expensive (both in human lives and economical costs) way to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government (and secure oil reserves).
Thanks. He's doing great. Ended up with two bad knees, but he's still in the Army. Got married since he got back and is going to be a dad for the first time this summer.
Hope all is well for you too!
Don't blame the soldiers for the war. They have to go and obey when told to do so. Though they are the proxy for the government, the choice to be there is not debatable.
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
dead.flowers
()
Date: April 20, 2011 20:04
Quote
kovachQuote
shortfatfannyQuote
boston2006
Vets also came from , The Korean War , The Vietnam War, Bay of Pigs Invasion , Grenada ,US Invasion of Panama ,Persian Gulf War , Intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina , Invasion of Afghanistan , Invasion of Iraq , Invasion of Libya .
These men and women should be thanked also .
Can hardly imagine any reason why to be thankful for invading for example vietnam...
That was a political decision that should in no way be held against those servicemen who were just doing their job as a result of that decision.
So if we must not reproach them soldiers/ veterans, do we then - in converse argument - have to praise them. I don't think so.
OT: But I must say: "Let's give peace a chance" and "make love not war". No soldiers need apply.
He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.
He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.
And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.
And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
How would @#$%& have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.
He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
- Donovan -
Countdown to this thread's started. Why wasn't it closed down long before?
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
deadegad
()
Date: April 20, 2011 20:19
Donovan is, what's the word I hear kids using these days, a douche. As for John Lennon: his interviews where he was asked as to what should be done in different conflicts were nothing more than platitudinous drivel. The few I have seen and read where he was asked a difficult question provided no answers but just some useless one liners. Still I like his music.
I've met Jewish survivors of @#$%&'s Germany and they were very grateful towards the soldiers who saved them, the soldiers, who Donovan seems to dismiss as rubes.
I've met Jewish survivors of @#$%&'s Germany and they were very grateful towards the soldiers who saved them, the soldiers, who Donovan seems to dismiss as rubes.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: April 21, 2011 03:05
Quote
mr_dja
I thank all of my veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on all of our behalf.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Is that really true?
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: April 21, 2011 03:08
Welcome back, Kleermaker! You were gone for a while.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
ineedadrink
()
Date: April 21, 2011 03:48
let's give credit where credit is due. Donovan didn't write Universal Soldier. Buffy Sainte-Marie did.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
deadegad
()
Date: April 21, 2011 05:58
Quote
ineedadrink
let's give credit where credit is due. Donovan didn't write Universal Soldier. Buffy Sainte-Marie did.
Sorry, my bad, apologies to Donovan for giving him the writing credit on that one.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
The Sicilian
()
Date: April 21, 2011 06:19
All these stories as the US observes the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War.
Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina.
Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
MKjan
()
Date: April 21, 2011 07:34
Quote
The Sicilian
All these stories as the US observes the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War.
Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina.
a rather odd name for a war, isn't it.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: April 21, 2011 08:14
Tim Hetherington maker of the award winning war doco Restrepo has be
killed while covering fighting between Muammar Gaddafi's forces and the opposition.
ROCKMAN
killed while covering fighting between Muammar Gaddafi's forces and the opposition.
ROCKMAN
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Rolling Hansie
()
Date: April 21, 2011 12:12
Quote
MKjan
Great respect for the troops, very little for most of the government policies that have put them in harms way, and very little respect for the harsh way vets are treated back home.
I think that says it all
-------------------
Keep On Rolling
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: April 21, 2011 15:24
Quote
kleermakerQuote
mr_dja
I thank all of my veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on all of our behalf.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Is that really true?
Yes. It's really true.
And "Welcome Back" kleermeker... Been a while since I've seen you around here. Hope all is well for you and yours.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: April 21, 2011 17:47
Quote
mr_djaQuote
kleermakerQuote
mr_dja
I thank all of my veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on all of our behalf.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Is that really true?
Yes. It's really true.
And "Welcome Back" kleermeker... Been a while since I've seen you around here. Hope all is well for you and yours.
Peace,
Mr DJA
You mean: 'I think it's true'.
One don't have to be a Socrates to prove you're wrong and that the assumption that all veterans have to be hailed is a wrong assumption. I just have translated Plato's dialogue 'Gorgias'. In that dialogue Socrates talks about politics and about what's right and what's wrong, using logic, by asking and answering questions, in an interesting and instructive way.
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
CrissCrossMind
()
Date: April 21, 2011 18:04
War, Children, it's just a shot away....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-21 18:48 by CrissCrossMind.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-21 18:48 by CrissCrossMind.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
sweetcharmedlife
()
Date: April 21, 2011 18:07
Very sad to hear that.Chris Hondros, a New York-based photographer for Getty Images, was also killed Wednesday.Quote
Rockman
Tim Hetherington maker of the award winning war doco Restrepo has be
killed while covering fighting between Muammar Gaddafi's forces and the opposition.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
CrissCrossMind
()
Date: April 21, 2011 18:19
R.I.P Tim and Chris - the nature of the game unfortunately....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-21 18:47 by CrissCrossMind.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-21 18:47 by CrissCrossMind.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
windmelody
()
Date: April 21, 2011 18:29
Some veterans live in yellow submarines.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: April 21, 2011 19:37
Quote
kleermakerQuote
mr_djaQuote
kleermakerQuote
mr_dja
I thank all of my veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on all of our behalf.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Is that really true?
Yes. It's really true.
And "Welcome Back" kleermeker... Been a while since I've seen you around here. Hope all is well for you and yours.
Peace,
Mr DJA
You mean: 'I think it's true'.
One don't have to be a Socrates to prove you're wrong and that the assumption that all veterans have to be hailed is a wrong assumption. I just have translated Plato's dialogue 'Gorgias'. In that dialogue Socrates talks about politics and about what's right and what's wrong, using logic, by asking and answering questions, in an interesting and instructive way.
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
No. I don't mean 'I think it's true'. I'm apt to agree with you that 'one don't need to be a Socrates to prove' I'm wrong because, in my reading of my original statement, there is nothing to be deemed "right or wrong" in the complete statement that you were questioning me about.
I'll admit that the part you bolded, "all of our behalf" could be a bit ambiguous due to this being an international forum. (If I remember correctly I think you're from somewhere in Europe?) Therefore, with me being a citizen of the USA, my veterans are not necessarily your veterans. Although I try to "type clearly and articulately" when I know that many people don't use English as a primary language and even I'm not the best "grammarian", I have no doubt that things can and do get "lost in translation" from time to time. Possibly, if I had written something to the effect of: "I thank US veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on behalf of the citizens of the USA." it might not have been quite as ambiguous but it also wouldn't have said what I was trying to say. I regret daily that I didn't pay more attention in English class as a kid. I would love to have a larger vocabulary and be more articulate but, "Hey, I's doin' da' bestest dat I can."
Also, as long as I'm addressing your attempt to interpret my words with your thoughts/words, I never used the word "hailed". I used the word "thank". I would actually agree with, what I think is your point, that a statement of: "all veterans have to be hailed" is a flawed/wrong/inaccurate/not absolute statement. But that's just due to how I think the word "hailed" would be defined in that statement.
Regarding your translation of Plato's dialogue... Would I be correct in assuming that your translation was to something other than English? I love philosophy and, although I don't always understand it, love to read it, think about it, learn from it, etc. If your translation is to English and you're not trying to make a profit from it, I'd love to read it. After all... Today's always a good day to learn something new. (Surely Plato & Socrates couldn't get me on that statement, could they?)
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: April 21, 2011 19:50
Quote
mr_dja
"I thank US veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on behalf of the citizens of the USA."
No, that is not true. They didn't make any sacrifices etc. on behalf of the citizens of the USA. That's what the powers that be want you (and me) to believe.
Regarding your translation of Plato's dialogue... Would I be correct in assuming that your translation was to something other than English? I love philosophy and, although I don't always understand it, love to read it, think about it, learn from it, etc. If your translation is to English and you're not trying to make a profit from it, I'd love to read it. After all... Today's always a good day to learn something new. (Surely Plato & Socrates couldn't get me on that statement, could they?)
I translated it indeed from Greek into Dutch. So alas! And yes, Socrates would praise you for that attitude, willing to learn something new, under condition that it will be something good, so that you will be better. He wouldn't advice you to learn something bad, because it would make you worse. So you also have to find out if that 'something' is something good or bad or in between good and bad: neutral.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: April 21, 2011 21:47
Quote
kleermakerQuote
mr_dja
"I thank US veterans and their families for the sacrifices they've made and the hardships they've carried on behalf of the citizens of the USA."
No, that is not true. They didn't make any sacrifices etc. on behalf of the citizens of the USA. That's what the powers that be want you (and me) to believe.
DJA replies:
I think our definition of "sacrifice" may be slightly different. By my standards, which are mine, and most likely different than yours, they sacrifice much just by enlisting in the armed forces. Using my logic (which is not Plato's or Socrates and can be twisted at times) since the armed forces exist, at least theoretically in my mind, "on behalf of the citizens" the sacrifices I see are therefore done on behalf of the citizens (though I wouldn’t limit it to that or exclude other possible reasons as well).
Now regarding "the powers that be" and what they want... Though I don't know you or your thoughts THAT well, based on the way I took that part of your comment, I do think you and I would be "preaching to the choir" if we started on that subject. I also think we'd fast get to the point where, because not everyone on the board would be in agreement, bv's lines would be crossed and this would get very political very quickly which is not something I want to do. Even though I think you and I would be in moderate agreement on that part of the subject, I don't know that the rest of the board would feel the same way. Kudos to all participating for keeping this discussion on a theoretical level and not personally attacking each other or their beliefs. Actually, right now it's pretty much just me & kleermaker doing the talking... I hope we're not offending anyone. That's not my intent and I don't get the impression that it's kleermaker's either.
---------
Regarding your translation of Plato's dialogue... Would I be correct in assuming that your translation was to something other than English? I love philosophy and, although I don't always understand it, love to read it, think about it, learn from it, etc. If your translation is to English and you're not trying to make a profit from it, I'd love to read it. After all... Today's always a good day to learn something new. (Surely Plato & Socrates couldn't get me on that statement, could they?)
I translated it indeed from Greek into Dutch. So alas! And yes, Socrates would praise you for that attitude, willing to learn something new, under condition that it will be something good, so that you will be better. He wouldn't advice you to learn something bad, because it would make you worse. So you also have to find out if that 'something' is something good or bad or in between good and bad: neutral.
DJA Replies:
Not wanting to turn this into a conversation on Greek philosophy... (but having someone who apparently is far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am at my disposal is somewhat irresistible to me!) Doesn't Socrates have some exception for learning something bad if you're able to take that knowledge and use it to either reaffirm or strengthen your good beliefs? Does that make sense to you? I know that a lot of our conversation in this thread has to do with grammar, vocabulary definitions, and personal interpretation of the words being used and that last question is awkward by my standards but I can't think off the top of my head how to word it better!
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
shortfatfanny
()
Date: April 21, 2011 22:45
Quote
kleermaker
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
Actually it´s become usual here to open a thread when leaving or returning the board...
Nevertheless...welcome back,my favourite board vet...
sorry..didn´t want to interrupt the debate...just couldn´t resist.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: April 21, 2011 23:02
Quote
shortfatfannyQuote
kleermaker
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
Actually it´s become usual here to open a thread when leaving or returning the board...
Nevertheless...welcome back,my favourite board vet...
sorry..didn´t want to interrupt the debate...just couldn´t resist.
Shortfatfanny,
You can feel free to interrupt (or participate in) my debates anytime... I'm not always real sure that my side's worth listening to anyway. Plus, after that Statue of Liberty story you told, I'm willing to give you at least one mulligan! Still smiling thinking about that one. If it ever becomes appropriate to tell, I'll share a similar experience I had when I was a visitor on a Soviet military base in the former DDR (that is the old EAST Germany, right?) back in 1991. For now, we'll leave that for another time.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
AngieBlue
()
Date: April 21, 2011 23:25
Blue -
Thanks for your service. From the Mom the an Operation Iraqi Freedom Veteran.
It is a tough decision to join the military. In the US it is an all volunteer force now. I know my son debated for several months about it. He joined during the height of the Iraq war and knew what he was facing. Not to brag - he was far from the only person making the same decision. Anyone who joined during that time period knew they were going to war - period.
In any country where service is voluntary, that is a tough choice to make. Times change, leaders change, hot spots occur out of no where, what was stable suddenly isn't, etc. etc. That is the choice a soldier is making. I'm willing to put my life on the line for my country whether I agree with whatever decision my leaders make politically, or not, during my contract.
And being drafted ...I can't imagine. Like it or not. Have the stomach for it or not.
My heart goes out to all of them - politics aside.
Thanks for your service. From the Mom the an Operation Iraqi Freedom Veteran.
It is a tough decision to join the military. In the US it is an all volunteer force now. I know my son debated for several months about it. He joined during the height of the Iraq war and knew what he was facing. Not to brag - he was far from the only person making the same decision. Anyone who joined during that time period knew they were going to war - period.
In any country where service is voluntary, that is a tough choice to make. Times change, leaders change, hot spots occur out of no where, what was stable suddenly isn't, etc. etc. That is the choice a soldier is making. I'm willing to put my life on the line for my country whether I agree with whatever decision my leaders make politically, or not, during my contract.
And being drafted ...I can't imagine. Like it or not. Have the stomach for it or not.
My heart goes out to all of them - politics aside.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
shortfatfanny
()
Date: April 22, 2011 00:18
Quote
mr_djaQuote
shortfatfannyQuote
kleermaker
Thanks for welcoming me and asking, and yes I'm fine!
Actually it´s become usual here to open a thread when leaving or returning the board...
Nevertheless...welcome back,my favourite board vet...
sorry..didn´t want to interrupt the debate...just couldn´t resist.
Shortfatfanny,
You can feel free to interrupt (or participate in) my debates anytime... I'm not always real sure that my side's worth listening to anyway. Plus, after that Statue of Liberty story you told, I'm willing to give you at least one mulligan! Still smiling thinking about that one. If it ever becomes appropriate to tell, I'll share a similar experience I had when I was a visitor on a Soviet military base in the former DDR (that is the old EAST Germany, right?) back in 1991. For now, we'll leave that for another time.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Looking forward to...peace to you Mr DJA
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Blue
()
Date: April 22, 2011 00:22
You are very kind AngieBlue....you are a brave Mom..I took care of Soldiers and Marines as an Army Nurse for a year over there, caring for brave sons (and daughters) probably much like your son..and consider it a great honor. When one was wounded or sadly Kia.... The very first thought was that of the mother..so Thank YOU for your sacrifice. I hope all is well with your son.... I can't believe I am saying this on a Rolling Stones site!
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: April 22, 2011 01:35
Quote
Blue
As a U.S. Army veteran of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and an infrequent poster here, just had to pipe in and appreciate the support shown by some of the users, very proud of helping to support our efforts to combat Al Qaida in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, and yes, they were in Iraq; and would do it again in a heartbeat, some may remember 9/11/01 and who wanted this fight. (KNOW this is off topic, but HAD to comment).
I'm sorry but this is too much. The Iraqi war was an illegal war started on false premises (there were no weapons of mass destruction). Al Qaida wasn't based in Iraq (Saddam didn't allow that). The war, that still goes on, didn't "free" the Iraqi people (the situation in Iraq is, in many ways, worse now than before the war). As I see it, the Iraqi war was a very expensive (both in human lives and economical costs) way to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government (and secure oil reserves).
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
AngieBlue
()
Date: April 22, 2011 02:19
Quote
Blue
You are very kind AngieBlue....you are a brave Mom..I took care of Soldiers and Marines as an Army Nurse for a year over there, caring for brave sons (and daughters) probably much like your son..and consider it a great honor. When one was wounded or sadly Kia.... The very first thought was that of the mother..so Thank YOU for your sacrifice. I hope all is well with your son.... I can't believe I am saying this on a Rolling Stones site!
Thanks. He's doing great. Ended up with two bad knees, but he's still in the Army. Got married since he got back and is going to be a dad for the first time this summer.
Hope all is well for you too!
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
The Sicilian
()
Date: April 22, 2011 03:05
Quote
StoneageQuote
Blue
As a U.S. Army veteran of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and an infrequent poster here, just had to pipe in and appreciate the support shown by some of the users, very proud of helping to support our efforts to combat Al Qaida in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, and yes, they were in Iraq; and would do it again in a heartbeat, some may remember 9/11/01 and who wanted this fight. (KNOW this is off topic, but HAD to comment).
I'm sorry but this is too much. The Iraqi war was an illegal war started on false premises (there were no weapons of mass destruction). Al Qaida wasn't based in Iraq (Saddam didn't allow that). The war, that still goes on, didn't "free" the Iraqi people (the situation in Iraq is, in many ways, worse now than before the war). As I see it, the Iraqi war was a very expensive (both in human lives and economical costs) way to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government (and secure oil reserves).
Don't blame the soldiers for the war. They have to go and obey when told to do so. Though they are the proxy for the government, the choice to be there is not debatable.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
Blue
()
Date: April 22, 2011 03:28
Quote
Stoneage
Okay Stoneage...what in the world makes a war "legal", that is ridiculous, a war is a war, and if Saddam wanted us to know he had no WMD, he should have allowed inspections, instead of playing "chicken" with the U.S., and contrary to your beliefs, Saddam was a supporter of several extremist terrorists groups granting money to families of suicide bombers, and providing safe-haven; including to master-mind Masab al Zarqawi, who was treated in a Baghdad hospital before 2003. Zarqawi became the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq up north near Mosul, he was responsible for chlorine gas attacks(a type of chemical warfare, by the way, its "illegal") in 2006 on hundreds of Iraqi civilians, I saw this firsthand in our hospital and treated several of these civilians, he was responsible for several beheadings of civilians, and the attacks in Jordan that killed our ambassador Foley. We have not received a drop of oil, or a penny of profit from Iraqi oil, (which would actually come in handy). In fact, our presence in Iraq did allow the Iraqi people to elect their own government, and is certainly more free than it was before. Remember, Saddam, along with his sons, was known as "The Butcher of Baghdad".Quote
Blue
As a U.S. Army veteran of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and an infrequent poster here, just had to pipe in and appreciate the support shown by some of the users, very proud of helping to support our efforts to combat Al Qaida in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, and yes, they were in Iraq; and would do it again in a heartbeat, some may remember 9/11/01 and who wanted this fight. (KNOW this is off topic, but HAD to comment).
I'm sorry but this is too much. The Iraqi war was an illegal war started on false premises (there were no weapons of mass destruction). Al Qaida wasn't based in Iraq (Saddam didn't allow that). The war, that still goes on, didn't "free" the Iraqi people (the situation in Iraq is, in many ways, worse now than before the war). As I see it, the Iraqi war was a very expensive (both in human lives and economical costs) way to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government (and secure oil reserves).
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
sweetcharmedlife
()
Date: April 22, 2011 06:56
Agreed. You can always debate the merits of going to war or not. But a soldier who serves faithfully and voluntarily for their country is always to be commended.Quote
The SicilianQuote
StoneageQuote
Blue
As a U.S. Army veteran of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and an infrequent poster here, just had to pipe in and appreciate the support shown by some of the users, very proud of helping to support our efforts to combat Al Qaida in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, and yes, they were in Iraq; and would do it again in a heartbeat, some may remember 9/11/01 and who wanted this fight. (KNOW this is off topic, but HAD to comment).
I'm sorry but this is too much. The Iraqi war was an illegal war started on false premises (there were no weapons of mass destruction). Al Qaida wasn't based in Iraq (Saddam didn't allow that). The war, that still goes on, didn't "free" the Iraqi people (the situation in Iraq is, in many ways, worse now than before the war). As I see it, the Iraqi war was a very expensive (both in human lives and economical costs) way to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government (and secure oil reserves).
Don't blame the soldiers for the war. They have to go and obey when told to do so. Though they are the proxy for the government, the choice to be there is not debatable.
Re: OT - War Veterans remembered
Posted by:
electric-duane
()
Date: April 22, 2011 11:13
This is an issue I find myself thinking about often during discussions of war, peace and politics.
On one hand, I completely understand and have total empathy for the "support the troops" crowd. I get the feeling that some soldiers are consciously proud of their decision to serve their country or cause but I think many are just like a lot of us in that they get up each morning, go to work, do the best they can and go home. They're not their because they're patriots, they're there to put in their time, bring home their coin and live a somewhat normal life.
BUT, I get tired of hearing things such as the following:
"Don't blame the soldiers for the war. They have to go and obey when told to do so. Though they are the proxy for the government, the choice to be there is not debatable."
This is for me something uniquely American (at least in my opinion) because for an American, only the American soldier isn't guilty for his participation in an illegal, immoral or unnecessary war. For all others, please see the Nuremberg trials - following orders is not an excuse.
I realize I'm exaggerating a bit because the Nuremberg trials targeting decision-makers within @#$%&'s government, not the common foot soldier, but the same philosophy lead the residents of Weimar to a forced tour of the Buchenwald concentration camp after its liberation during WWII and subsequent grave-digging. It wasn't the Nazi Party, or @#$%&'s regime or the SS that was responsible for what went on. The Germans, themselves, were collectively responsible, whereas most probably held a version of the same belief repeated above: The government's position is not debatable.
Does the Iraqi soldier that went up against the American deserve respect and thanks? His mission was more commendable than that of the American's. What about the Mujahedin? What about the North Vietnamese? These groups were all similar in that they were fighting against an aggressor.
I'm going to stop here because I don't feel I'm in a position to process my thoughts completely today with regards to this theme, but on some days I understand the logic and on some others I don't. I had a little too much to drink last night and the head's not working with me.
Peace Out,
E-Duane
On one hand, I completely understand and have total empathy for the "support the troops" crowd. I get the feeling that some soldiers are consciously proud of their decision to serve their country or cause but I think many are just like a lot of us in that they get up each morning, go to work, do the best they can and go home. They're not their because they're patriots, they're there to put in their time, bring home their coin and live a somewhat normal life.
BUT, I get tired of hearing things such as the following:
"Don't blame the soldiers for the war. They have to go and obey when told to do so. Though they are the proxy for the government, the choice to be there is not debatable."
This is for me something uniquely American (at least in my opinion) because for an American, only the American soldier isn't guilty for his participation in an illegal, immoral or unnecessary war. For all others, please see the Nuremberg trials - following orders is not an excuse.
I realize I'm exaggerating a bit because the Nuremberg trials targeting decision-makers within @#$%&'s government, not the common foot soldier, but the same philosophy lead the residents of Weimar to a forced tour of the Buchenwald concentration camp after its liberation during WWII and subsequent grave-digging. It wasn't the Nazi Party, or @#$%&'s regime or the SS that was responsible for what went on. The Germans, themselves, were collectively responsible, whereas most probably held a version of the same belief repeated above: The government's position is not debatable.
Does the Iraqi soldier that went up against the American deserve respect and thanks? His mission was more commendable than that of the American's. What about the Mujahedin? What about the North Vietnamese? These groups were all similar in that they were fighting against an aggressor.
I'm going to stop here because I don't feel I'm in a position to process my thoughts completely today with regards to this theme, but on some days I understand the logic and on some others I don't. I had a little too much to drink last night and the head's not working with me.
Peace Out,
E-Duane
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