May he rest in peace, and may all his sins be forgiven. Ave Crux Spes Unica.

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Title5Take1

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Keefan
I don't idolize Sid by any means, but there's a strong argument to be made that Sid wasn't the one who killed Nancy. There's even a movie about this.

[www.whokillednancy.com]

The recent special Rolling Stones edition of UNCUT MAGAZINE had a bunch of old Rolling Stones interviews, and the following is from a 1979 interview with keith. KEITH: "Sid - yeah. He's been a silly boy. Just because he woke up with a knife in his hands, he thinks he done it. I have a feeling he didn't. It was probably some very sharp New York dealer."

Fairly perceptive from Keith - or had he heard what really happened in the circles he moved in.

John Savage's England's Dreaming has a different take on Nancy's murder - as recounted by Joe Stevens, a photographer friend of the band's. He interviewed Sid - informally - the day before he died.

The autopsy report stated that Nancy's injury was a single inch deep cut. It was treatable, and she would have lived had she got to a doctor. Instead she bled to death over a couple of hours.

According to Stevens, Sid stated that he'd gone out to buy drugs. Nancy was in the hotel room and tried to score from their usual dealer, Rockets Redglare. Although they had money, Nancy was so loathed by the dealers hat they wouldn't sell to her (!). Sid couldn't cop and returned to the hotel empty handed. He got into an argument with Nancy and pulled out his knife. She goaded him into stabbing her, sticking her belly out and jabbing it into the blade. Then the blade went in - part-Sid, part her. Sid then passed out. Nancy bled to death.

In short, it was manslaughter not murder.

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Title5Take1
If nothing else, the GOODFELLAS closing credits with Sid Vicious singing My Way over them was contribution enough from him. (Obviously the song was out long before GOODFELLAS, but that song fit that ending so great. Maybe the Beatles' Baby You're a Rich Man playing during the closing credits of THE SOCIAL NETWORK is the only equal regarding a song-at-closing-credits.)

GoodFellas also references Sid's performance of My Way, in the Great Rock N Roll Swindle, when Joe Pesci's character shoots at the camera - and therefore the audience - as Sid did at the end of My way.

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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lsbz

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

He was barely plugged in for that gig.

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Nikolai

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lsbz

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

He was barely plugged in for that gig.

Someone is playing bass on a recording of No Fun from that concert that I heard on Youtube. It's not loud and it's not always good, but it's there.

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lsbz

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Nikolai

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lsbz

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

He was barely plugged in for that gig.

Someone is playing bass on a recording of No Fun from that concert that I heard on Youtube. It's not loud and it's not always good, but it's there.

Maybe someone behind the scene...

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steffiestones

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lsbz

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Nikolai

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lsbz

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

He was barely plugged in for that gig.

Someone is playing bass on a recording of No Fun from that concert that I heard on Youtube. It's not loud and it's not always good, but it's there.

Maybe someone behind the scene...

Must've been even more off his face than Sid.

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steffiestones

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lsbz

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Nikolai

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lsbz

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steffiestones

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MKjan
A fantastic natural air guitarist who accidently picked up a real guitar.

A good definition

Wikipedia says: "By the time of the last Sex Pistols gig at the Winterland in San Francisco Sid was a reasonably competent bass player which is evident in the footage of this gig.". I tend to agree with that, competent enough to play in the Sex Pistols that is. He was a very static player though.

[en.wikipedia.org]

He was barely plugged in for that gig.

Someone is playing bass on a recording of No Fun from that concert that I heard on Youtube. It's not loud and it's not always good, but it's there.

Maybe someone behind the scene...

Then they probably would have hired someone better. It's not good but generally not bad either. And Wikipedia writes that some musicians thought that he could play too. Probably minor musicians, but I think it says something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-04 23:36 by lsbz.

Once Sid was told he couldn't play bass and he just said "So!"

dont remember who asked the question or what the circumstances were.

plexi

...Then they probably would have hired someone better...

That was not a big problem i think.

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steffiestones
...Then they probably would have hired someone better...

That was not a big problem i think.

Possibly, but you seemed to suggest that he did not play at the concert. Did you actually listen yourself or are you only speculating?! Have you ever been in a band yourself?! Many people in this thread seem to be parroting eachother without having much musical knowledge.

The thread's more relevant than you think. Anyone have an idea who helped finance Sid's defence and offered lawyers etc?

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sizey
The thread's more relevant than you think. Anyone have an idea who helped finance Sid's defence and offered lawyers etc?

Read the following John Lydon quote from a 2008 Lydon profile in the "London Times" (full article at link below): JOHN LYDON: "Not many days go by when I don't think well of him [Sid]. I was emotionally f***ing wounded. And I've got to say, one of the very few people who came in with any kind of help was, oddly enough, Mick Jagger, who came up with a lawyer and stuff. Nobody else was paying attention." [entertainment.timesonline.co.uk]

I'd read this before, but don't know the details of how Mick went about providing such aid.

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sizey
The thread's more relevant than you think.

Not in the sense of musical relevance. The Sex Pistols were a minor band; who cares about whether Sid Vicious could actually play?! But if you are going to debate that, you should not speculate. Besides, many of the punk bands made it a point that they could not play; they seemed to be proud of that. They were better than many people think, but most of them were just too limited to count for much. In my opinion it is bad enough that bands like the Sex Pistols were apparently necessary to get some dynamics in rock again. There are other bands that deserve more attention.

By "relevance" he obviously meant the Stones connection by way of Mick Jagger lending Sid Vicious legal/financial help.

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Title5Take1
By "relevance" he obviously meant the Stones connection by way of Mick Jagger lending Sid Vicious legal/financial help.

The topic starter only mentioned his bass playing, amd that's what the discussion mostly has been about. If the legal/financial help is true, then I guess it is Stones related and maybe that could become a more specific topic if people find it interesting (I don't really).

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Title5Take1

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sizey
The thread's more relevant than you think. Anyone have an idea who helped finance Sid's defence and offered lawyers etc?

Read the following John Lydon quote from a 2008 Lydon profile in the "London Times" (full article at link below): JOHN LYDON: "Not many days go by when I don't think well of him [Sid]. I was emotionally f***ing wounded. And I've got to say, one of the very few people who came in with any kind of help was, oddly enough, Mick Jagger, who came up with a lawyer and stuff. Nobody else was paying attention." [entertainment.timesonline.co.uk]

I'd read this before, but don't know the details of how Mick went about providing such aid.

This Jagger involvement is news to me. That Jagger guy always surprises me. I can not think even how much certain punk circles would have hated the idea having Jagger giving a helping hand... Well, to be cynical - it is Mick Jagger we talk here! - one can say that he had a hot and ready "lawyer and stuff" available then - thanks to the hassles of own band member... so I guess it was not a big deal for him...

- Doxa

I dont agree with a lot of these comments. That Sid Vicious couldnt play bass is a myth, there are bootlegs of the US tour where he is playing quite competently usually when he was playing badly he was stoned out of his mind. I remember Stones sideman Jim Keltner saying how he thought Sid was a great bass player on this tour. He learned to play really quickly with no experience and it suited the Pistols image that Sid "couldnt play". The guy who says the Pistols were of "minor relevance" as a band you have to be kidding, you may not like the music but they are certainly one of the most influential bands in rock, there are plenty of books where you can learn a bit of history,(try Griel Marcus or Englands Dreaming, there have even been University courses held about the social and marketing impact of the Sex Pistols) such a claim is basic ignorance, in my opinion, its like saying Picasso is a "minor" painter because you dont like his work.

I don't think the Sex Pistols' influence musically speaking is that huge. The social and marketing impact is a completely different thing.

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humanriff77
The guy who says the Pistols were of "minor relevance" as a band you have to be kidding, you may not like the music but they are certainly one of the most influential bands in rock...

The Sex Pistols probably would not be in my personal top 50 of favorite bands, and then they are of minor relevance to me. I think they were a fairly good band though, but there are many good bands that have relatively little relevance. Like the Ramones never got any better than Blitzkrieg Bop, the Pistols never got better than Anarchy In The UK. You heard one track; you basically heard them all. The real good bands are not only agressive.
About influential: they may be seen as that, but I think that's mainly because they seem to be an archetypical punk band. They took advantage of a musical void in the mid seventies that should never have existed in the first place. I think that the music scene went corrupt from thereon and has been ever since.
There certainly were other punk bands as well that I thought were as least as good as the Sex Pistols, like the Damned. They had three good tracks on their first album, and a more human appeal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-06 23:27 by lsbz.

Here's one Lydon quote re Jagger

[i9.photobucket.com]

(from Rockman's [www.iorr.org])

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stones78
I don't think the Sex Pistols' influence musically speaking is that huge. The social and marketing impact is a completely different thing.

You don't think The Pistols musical influence is huge? Try The Jam and The Clash (both Paul Weller and Joe Strummer realised what they were doing was musically and lyrically obsolete after seeing The Pistols play) - not to mention about a million punk bands who formed in their wake, and not just in 1976/77, but all the way up to the woeful Green Day. Then there was The Pistols' big fan, Shame MacGowan, who later went on to form The Pogues as a cross between the Sex Pistols and traditional Irish music.

Liam Gallagher of Oasis owes his entire vocal style to Johnny Rotten.

Neil Young's "My, My, Hey Hey ..." was inspired by and referenced Johnny Rotten and punk.

Then there are the metal bands - Guns & Roses, Metallica, Megadeath. Then you've got Joy Division, New Order, Buzzcocks, The Fall who all formed/were inspired to up their ante after seeing The Pistols at the famous Manchester Free Trade Hall gig in 1976.

Also there were Morrissey and Mick Hucknall of Simply Red. And Duran Duran too - yup, they started out as a punk band. Simon LeBon cited Pretty Vacant as one of his favourite records.

Africa Bambata was a big Pistols fan. As was Chuck D of Public Enemy. In fact the latter dubbed his band, 'The black Sex Pistols".

And they obviously put the wind up Jagger's arse, because he not only got his act together with Some Girls, but he even aped Rotten on the subsequent tour - the Destroy t-shirt, the rough n ready performances, the surly, brattish interviews ....

And this is a very very short list, thrown together as fast as I can type.

Remember - The Pistols made ONE album, not five, not ten, not twenty. And they barely played any shows in the UK in 1977. I'd say that's a pretty seismic influence.

After the Pistols, Lydon formed Public Image Ltd. They went on to influence countless other bands.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-06 23:45 by Nikolai.

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lsbz

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humanriff77
The guy who says the Pistols were of "minor relevance" as a band you have to be kidding, you may not like the music but they are certainly one of the most influential bands in rock...

The Sex Pistols probably would not be in my personal top 50 of favorite bands, and then they are of minor relevance to me. I think they were a fairly good band though, but there are many good bands that have relatively little relevance. Like the Ramones never got any better than Blitzkrieg Bop, the Pistols never got better than Anarchy In The UK. You heard one track; you basically heard them all. The real good bands are not only agressive.
About influential: they may be seen as that, but I think that's mainly because they seem to be an archetypical punk band. They took advantage of a musical void in the mid seventies that should never have existed in the first place. I think that the music scene went corrupt from thereon and has been ever since.
There certainly were other punk bands as well that I thought were as least as good as the Sex Pistols, like the Damned. They had three good tracks on their first album, and a more human appeal.

The Ramones 'never got any better than Blitzkrieg Bop' - Puh-Lease. They got far more melodic after their debut. Rocket To Russia, their third album, is a masterpiece. And they wrote way better songs than Blitzkrieg Bop too.

The Damned had a more 'human appeal', you say? Their only contributions to the punk zeitgeist were these: 1). releasing the first ever UK punk single (New Rose) and 2). spitting at concerts (which was started by their drummer, Rat Scabies). They actually got way better after their first album. Their third and fourth - Machine Gun Etiquette and The Black Album are brilliant.

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Nikolai
Also there were Morrissey and Mick Hucknall of Simply Red. And Duran Duran too - yup, they started out as a punk band. Simon LeBon cited Pretty Vacant as one of his favourite records.

Maybe, but those and others you mention are pretty minor bands too. I'd say that generally any good Hollies track is more influential on good bands than everything the Sex Pistols did combined. And then you're talking about a very relative, minor influence as well.

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lsbz
I'd say that generally any good Hollies track is more influential on good bands than everything the Sex Pistols did combined.

Well, if that sentence has any truthfulness or even sense in it, I think you need to have very idiosyncratic, subjective - and very thin - account what makes a band "good". For example, I can't make The Stones to fit in it.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-07 00:04 by Doxa.

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Nikolai
The Ramones 'never got any better than Blitzkrieg Bop' - Puh-Lease. They got far more melodic after their debut. Rocket To Russia, their third album, is a masterpiece. And they wrote way better songs than Blitzkrieg Bop too.

I'm not going to debate that, but I really don't think so.

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Nikolai
The Damned had a more 'human appeal', you say?

Yes. Less agressive and more artistic. They had better songs.

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Doxa

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lsbz
I'd say that generally any good Hollies track is more influential on good bands than everything the Sex Pistols did combined.

Well, if that sentence has any truthfulness or even sense in it, I think you need to have very idiosyncratic, subjective - and very thin - account what makes a band "good".

You probably mean "agressive" instead of good. The Hollies were a very good band.

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Doxa
For example, I can't make The Stones to fit in it.

Where should they fit in?! Maybe you like them for agression too?! But that's only part of what rock's about. The Sex Pistols were a very shallow, immature band.

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lsbz

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Doxa

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lsbz
I'd say that generally any good Hollies track is more influential on good bands than everything the Sex Pistols did combined.

Well, if that sentence has any truthfulness or even sense in it, I think you need to have very idiosyncratic, subjective - and very thin - account what makes a band "good".

You probably mean "agressive" instead of good. The Hollies were a very good band.

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Doxa
For example, I can't make The Stones to fit in it.

Where should they fit in?! Maybe you like them for agression too?! But that's only part of what rock's about. The Sex Pistols were a very shallow, immature band.

Immature - well, they were barely out of their teens when they started, like most bands. But shallow, you say? Really? Which is why they were banned from playing practically everywhere in the UK by local government authorities, which was why Jimmy Carter - then US President - said he wanted to 'stop punk in its tracks'. No, they were considered a direct threat to the establishment. You know why? Because their songs actually struck a chord with a whole lot of people. And they still do.